180 degree header question.

I would think there should be 4 separate holes otherwise it would defeat the purpose of the 180 degree design.

I would want the mufflers supported to prevent metal fatigue due to their movement. Although from your pictures I don't see an easy way to do this.

I've got the exact same headers, although I have not trial fitted them yet. I bought them off someone here who had pulled them from a pantera stash of parts. They are the SVO/Yates exhaust port for a cleveland (9.2 deck). You will need to do a little more digging on your motor to find out if its a windsor 9.2 or aftermarket 9.5 deck block or a cleveland block with yates heads? May explain the need for the block spacer. The spacer could be the result of a 9.5 deck block and yes the open spacer does negate the bundle of snake separated pulses. My understanding is the headers were commissioned and sold by Hall and built by Stan's Headers here in WA State for Hall.

If you don't mind can you produce a video of what your car sounds like and dump it on youtube, I'm interested to get an idea of what I would get with this setup. I'll produce some mock up pictures in a few days. It shouldn't be difficult to draw a template with the 4 holes and have it CNC'd correctly to replace the current spacer. I'll let you know if it lines up correctly on my cleveland block with c302 heads without the spacer.

Hustler, this will give you a comparison. The yellow car at 2:10 has 180's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raL5NQAgCHc

Mine are also the c3 Yates heads on an svo Windsor block, the owner told me it came straight from Yates out of their nascar truck series, said it cost him 40k.
Has the high rise svo manifold 1150 demon carb and the c3 Yates heads
I have a short video of the car idling I'll try to upload it.

thanks 4nhotrod, do you know if that car has those particular headers, the mufflers look more like a glasspack type deal, so curious how those sound as some other 180's have used different style mufflers.

https://youtu.be/fEU6F4y06sE

Here's a vid I took a while back when I was looking at buying the car.

It sat for a month or 2 without being started.
And with no choke it pops when cold.

As you can see it's the same headers you have.
Mine came with glass packs as well as straight pipes.

The car will sound totally different with the mufflers straight back or angled outside to the original openings. I had Hall pipes out to the side and couldn't stand the sound. I now have Byers pipes straight out the back. the yellow car has the byers pipes

Though true for all exhausts, especially on 180s, it is remarkable how placement and even the direction the tail pipes point affect the sound. Tail pipes that point down toward the ground make a noticeable difference in audible noise level (softens) and placing the tail pipes apart in the two OE muffler pockets produces a different sound than a side by side arrangement exiting through the condenser grill. Of course affects are more pronounced standing behind the car or to an observer as you’re passing by and less noticeable for the driver from the cockpit……on the pipes at full song.

IMO, the center exit is definitely the best sound, more closely replicating a flat plane crank V8, but I still have a very difficult time looking at the back of my Pantera without OE appearing Ansa cans tucked in the original positions.

Best,
K

quote:

Originally posted by Ace:
https://youtu.be/fEU6F4y06sE

Here's a vid I took a while back when I was looking at buying the car.

It sat for a month or 2 without being started.
And with no choke it pops when cold.

As you can see it's the same headers you have.
Mine came with glass packs as well as straight pipes.

That is pretty much how they sound at idle from behind.

In the cabin you get an entirely different effect. The noise is behind you and I get little or no vibration from the exhausts.

Of course the effect of the induction into the Weber stacks is noticeable though. They are closer to your ears.


At full throttle the Webers change the effect of the sound of the exhaust because of the power pulses of an IR manifold.

quote:

Originally posted by Ace:
...spacer block between the banks at the rear Of the engine.
...should that block be open to all 4 header tubes? Or
Have 4 holes to keep the tubes separate?
...had one made That is just open in the middle....

I would concur with Husker in that the tubes should have seperration.

However, a more pressing reason for a new spacer would be to trim the sharp outer corners so it would look more approiate.

I agree about the spacer plate, as for the exhaust tip placement, I love the look of the side exit.
But I might have to reconsider the center exit, the condenser was already moved to the front.
But the previous owner cut holes in the rear for the exhaust to exit, and those will remain if I move the tips.

I also have to consider fabbing a support for the mufflers, and it will be easier
With them exiting the rear. Oh what to do what to do. Lol

With regard to the rear center exit, how do people deal with the grill? Is there an
After market grill with cut outs in it? Or do you just cut the OE grill?

I still have the mufflers in storage. I changed them out to Thrush polished stainless mufflers because I wanted a finished tip showing in the back.

I like the side exit also.

I had the headers powder coated and they still look new.

The GT40's just ran a "screen door" spring over the mufflers and bolted that to the chassis.

The spring gives flexability, doesn't transmit vibration and reduces the muffler vibrations.

Seems to work well enough.

My son fell on the ground laughing at them. Asked, "where did you come up with that idea from, Rube Goldberg?"

Then I showed him the pictures of the '40s. He stopped laughing. Out loud anyway.

I don't think Ferrari still laughs about them? They are in the back of the car, and he could get a really good look at them there?

Through grille.

Tony Ortiz (Black Panther) has some cool little custom shock absorbers that suspend his 180s.

It looks like a nice setup.

Rocky

RRS, Neat setup. You're teasing us! What does it look like on the inside?

This is Ron McCalls handiwork on mine.

Inside

Mufflers are completely gutted, no internals.

Love it, me car has a ways to go before it looks as clean as yours!
Do you think the heat shield is really required? I've herd yes and no, my car did not come with one, and hasn't been driven very far since the 180's were installed..

The original 180's ( bundle of snakes )as every one knows was on the famous G.T. 40. The routing of the exhaust was close together and straight out the back, this system created a large power range. The distinct sound is created by changing the exhaust pulse from 180 degrees to 90 degrees, this sound is similar to many race cars that incorporate a flat crankshaft where the crank journals are 90 degrees apart ( you can lay the crank on a table and it is on one flat plane), most notable is the Ferrari. The new Shelby mustang has a flat crank and many other unique features for it is a purpose built track car. A heat shield is recommended as the temperatures at the header tubes ( prior to collectors ) can reach 600+ degrees.

Through the grill. Oh ya the sound, @ 7,000 rpm
you scream like a dozen chain saws about to blow,
very sweet!

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
Tony Ortiz (Black Panther) has some cool little custom shock absorbers that suspend his 180s.

It looks like a nice setup.

Rocky

quote:

Originally posted by Ace:
Love it, me car has a ways to go before it looks as clean as yours!
Do you think the heat shield is really required? I've herd yes and no, my car did not come with one, and hasn't been driven very far since the 180's were installed..

Well, it does get toasty in there. The powder coating on the headers supposedly reduces the surface temperature of the headers 180 degrees.

The guys that did mine made a big deal out of coating both the inside and outside of the pipes.

I never thought to measure the temp in a before and after thing?

The place on the decklid that you need to shield the most is the portion that is right over the bellhouse. That is where all the pipes cross over and some are only 3/4" from the decklids inner spider.

I also have the Webers shielded and the decklid struts as well.

If you follow the triangular shape of the spider there, that is sufficient. Kind of looks "artsy" there too.

I can tell you that I have burned myself on those pipes more than a few times simply because they never LOOK hot.

Ace, my outlook is that I am not going to take the gamble and end up with an engine lid blistered to hell or the spider frame coming loose.

quote:

The powder coating on the headers supposedly reduces the surface temperature of the headers 180 degrees

So that´s why they´re called 180 degree headers!

Or, if they´re 180 degree headers to begin with and the coating reduces 180, they are constantly 0 degrees F. Ah nevermind, it´s getting late...

Said this before and may be worth repeating: the biggest drawback to 180s is, I personally tend to stay in the throttle a little too long just for the sheer sound! This is hard on the brakes.... And on one Pantera, the first time we ran 180s, the deck lid developed two spots 12" in OD of badly charred enamel after a 50 mile drive to the event at highway-legal speeds. Yes- the decklid WILL get overheated without a shield!

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Said this before and may be worth repeating: the biggest drawback to 180s is, I personally tend to stay in the throttle a little too long just for the sheer sound! This is hard on the brakes.... And on one Pantera, the first time we ran 180s, the deck lid developed two spots 12" in OD of badly charred enamel after a 50 mile drive to the event at highway-legal speeds. Yes- the decklid WILL get overheated without a shield!

If they're not ceramic coated.

Those 180s sure look great and sound great. But I'm guessing there are a few burned forearms around here.

I would mount a shield right over the gathering point of the headers ( Doug, right again ) down to the other heat shield, that will not cost you more than $50.00 if you do it yourself, repainting your rear lid will be $$$$$$$$

Ya I knew I should do it, was just hoping for a "no need to" "it'll be fine" lol.
Thanks for the reality check!!

[/QUOTE]
If they're not ceramic coated.[/QUOTE]

The coating just reduces the heat. It doesn't eliminate it or reduce it enough.

It isn't just the paint you need to worry about melting off. The deck lid will warp with the heat if you don't shield it and you won't be able to fix that.

Fiberglass won't be a better choice either. It will warp worse than the steel.

Put a piece of stainless 20 gauge on the spider. It will act as a "sacrificial anode".
It will be easier than aluminum sheet to keep clean. Just wipe it down with Windex. Same with the powder coated headers.

Incidentally, the flat black, grey and titanium powder coats will water spot. The "chrome" powder coat doesn't and when they are done, will look like mill polished stainless.

Use a shield- aluminum or ss. A 180F temp reduction with Jet-Hot coating or other similar- isn't enough if you actually intend to drive the car. The exhaust gasses are around 600F coming out the mufflers & even hotter closer to the engine. One GT-5 clone ran a Silver State event (92 miles of higher speeds over about 45 minutes of running), and at his speed with early tilted-up muffler tips, the Pantera's airflow swirl in back blew the exhaust back against the rear of the car. Both taillight lenses visibly MELTED!

I once built a garage exhaust collector for winter tuning inside, using my stock GTS mufflers with straight-out tips. 50:50 solder holding the log collector together melted & dripped off at 1000 rpm idle within a few minutes. I had to redo it using braze. High-temp 50:50 solder melts & runs off at 420F.

I have to presume that there was a reason the Gp4 cars had the exhaust run out the corners vs. straight back until proven otherwise? I doubt it was arbitrary? They definitely ran a shied. An aluminum sheet the entire length.

That exhaust actually needs to be tuned.
Using different size pipes and mufflers effect the upper rpm range and the low end torque curves some.

The GT40 is a different car. It has similarities but the Pantera has unique attributes and unique requirements.

You might say that you can see the family DNA relationship but they are by no means identical twins.

Painting stripes on a Mule doesn't make him a Zebra.


The 69 Shelby Mustangs have a unique exhaust feature. They have a manifold that transfers the exhaust to the center of the rear of the car, under the rear bumper.

The gas tank fill is directly above that.

Initially the tank used a vented cap.

There were several cars that caught fire as a result of the location of both.

Shelby Automotive issued a recall notice to change the cap to a non vented cap and make appropriate modifications to the filler neck.

It would seem that the heat from the exhaust on just street driven cars was enough to cause an issue?

Just thought this was an interesting aside to BW's comment on the centered exhaust location?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I have to presume that there was a reason the Gp4 cars had the exhaust run out the corners vs. straight back until proven otherwise? I doubt it was arbitrary?

The Grp4 ran with a full-sized spare. It must have been a requirement for the class.

quote:

Originally posted by LIV1S:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I have to presume that there was a reason the Gp4 cars had the exhaust run out the corners vs. straight back until proven otherwise? I doubt it was arbitrary?

The Grp4 ran with a full-sized spare. It must have been a requirement for the class.

Makes sense. The MkIV's had to carry a spare, I THINK the Mk1's & II's did too?

The straight out exhausts made sense on those cars to economize on mechanical access.

You can extend the pipes out further out of the ducktail turbulence and into the airstream and avoid issues most likely.


How practical 180's are on a true "real world" street car are debatable.

The stock Pantera has got to have one of the best trunk cargo areas of many cars, not just a little tight ass Italian sports car?

In this neck of the woods I could surely get $1,200 a month rent for that space?


Practical isn't the term I'd use for my car and it sucks that I'm loosing the $1,200/month?

With side-exit 180 exhausts, there's a chance such a car could use (or copy) Hall's half-trunk-tub made for his 180s, especially if you laminated heat-resistent stuff to the front & bottom of the tub. The half-trunk looks like what was stock on the Miura and is a whole lot better than nothing.

FYI, I remembered one more drawback to 180s: there's a definite order in how that tubular jigsaw puzzle goes back together! During a tech session engine swap some years ago on Mike Harper's car so equipped, it took longer to get the pipes bolted back in than it did to swap blocks! Naturely, the pipe remover was not the pipe-installer and we (and Mike) had no instructions as he'd bought the car that way.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
With side-exit 180 exhausts, there's a chance such a car could use (or copy) Hall's half-trunk-tub made for his 180s, especially if you laminated heat-resistent stuff to the front & bottom of the tub. The half-trunk looks like what was stock on the Miura and is a whole lot better than nothing.

FYI, I remembered one more drawback to 180s: there's a definite order in how that tubular jigsaw puzzle goes back together! During a tech session engine swap some years ago on Mike Harper's car so equipped, it took longer to get the pipes bolted back in than it did to swap blocks! Naturely, the pipe remover was not the pipe-installer and we (and Mike) had no instructions as he'd bought the car that way.

A chance? I've got it. It still needs to be lined with anti-heat fabric so I can't carry any ice cream in there but heck I can start a nice pork roast in there and it will be done in an hour or so?

It's kind of a mess at the moment but if you promise not to look too hard at details I'll post a picture?

Well...do you promise or not?


No problem on getting mine apart or back together with the flange in the middle.

I always said that was the practical part of Stan's (FPP) design?

Forget about it with the individual pipes. Those things warp all over the place.


From the beginning I always considered the headers a "competition" thing and cosmetics were not the most important thing?

The trunk liner is just something to have to shut the critics up?


Actually my Camaro Pro Stock friend was/is still impressed with them but he still is trying to get me to put a BB Chevy in there?

I think he thinks I made the headers myself? I'm not going to admit I didn't? Let him roast in envy?

"Those crazy ass headers" is his comment, not mine?

Well no one promised but here is the shortened trunk. Humps are where the mufflers live.

This is either the lining being torn off or put on? I forget which. Could be both.

The lining is tough to do.

You definitely need to carry everything in flexible luggage?