351C trouble.

Wonderful, i see we have another Swede here!
Alright, backfire throught the carb is a LEAN condition. Backfire throught the exhaust is a rich condition. Naturally, some other faults may show the same effect.
Set the lasch to zero and 3/4 more turn. The 351C has pedestals, so this type of adjustments is not possible. But imagine it to be so when thightened to the pedestals.
If not, the pushrods is the wrong lenght.
Goran Malmberg

Also,make sure you are seting the preload(not lash) on the base circle of the cam (0 lift)

Ron

Backfire through the carb can be caused by an exhaust valve too loose and not opening. Do you have stock valve train with pedestals or have the heads been modified for adjustable rocker arms?
Forest

Hi All !

Thanks for your replys.

( Hej G�ran kul att man inte �r ensam svensk h�r ! )

I might not have been clear enouch in my post so i'll try to clearify the problem.

The carb is not to lean as i get a slight blackish exhaust while reving the engine the carb is a brand new Speed Demon 750 and we have tried to alter the mixture back and forth with no result either.

The valvetrain has been alterd from the original pedestal design to adjustable roller rockers by the crane cam conversion kit.

Now here's a picture showing how loose the rockers are just after the valvecovers are removed with and engine at operating temperature. http://www.realvis.com/jonte/looserockers.jpg

Forest: Interesting that you write that the backfire can be caused by the exhaust valve not opening. When we had the valvecovers of and did the adjustment we could hear how it was popping back thru the carb while cranking it without the coil attached. then we started tightening the exhaust valves down a bit and the pops disappeared.
But since it was impossible to say wich of the rockers that rattled i can't say that adjusting the valve-lash while the engine runs is a very good solution but then again i cant adjust it with the engine of either since the spring action in the lifter just isn't there anymore or at least not on all of the lifters.

Anyway what i don't understand is if the rockers could be this loose or if there is something that just dont work as it should...and if the backfires now comes from a non-opening exhaust valve why does this occur...sudden drop in oilpressure or some other variation that takes place once the oil temperature rises higher.

I started reading on other forums too and saw that some people had problems with the cam-lobes beeing grinded down...This sounds unlikely since the cam,lifters,pushrods and other valvetrain parts are brand new and installed by the book. and broken in over a period of 20 minutes as specified.

Here's a picture of the whole machinery. http://www.soulcollector.se/nemesis/jpg/panterastuff/351cEngineInstalled01.jpg

FYI: i put the roller rocker in that position by hand and has not been run like th..i just wanted to illustrate how loose they were.

I'm not sure I want to try to explain why non opening exhaust valve causes popping back through the carb because I would probably be wrong and everyone would feel obligated to waste a bunch of bandwidth pointing out why I was wrong. The reason I noted that it can happen is that I noticed it happening on my trans am when an exhaust lobe went flat. I believe it has to do with pressure being trapped due to exhaust not opening and then relieveing into the intake when the intake opens.

I don't know how the rockers could get that loose.... I'm sort of with Ron - are you sure that you are preloading them while on the flat part of the cam? If you are preloading the rockers while on the "hump" of the cam, then as it comes around to zero lift you'll end up with a lot of slack.

You could also get a lot of slack if you've bent a pushrod... Take a loose valve and doublecheck that you haven't bent a pushrod?

------------------
Charlie McCall
1985 DeTomaso Pantera GT5-S #9375
"Raising Pantera Awareness across Europe"
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/gt5s_1985

Anyway, set the carb back to normal and sort out the valve trouble. Whats obviosly is wrong must be fixed first.
When the engine cools down, is the lasch still as loose?
Goran Malmberg

Charlie: Yes the method i used for the adjustment is the very same as Crane suggests and exacty as Mike Dailey does on hit web site. http://www.panteraplace.com/page131.htm

In fact i have the exact same lifters that he installs on that website of his and he also uses the crane adjustabe valvetrain conversion.

I am going to florida next week and i'll try to get in touch with compcams over there and sort out what the heck is going on with my valvetrain.

How tight should the rockers be when you turn off the engine and remove the valvecovers...should they be loose at all when not in lift or does the plunger in the lifter bottom out over time after the oil pressure goes away and that's why the slack occurs ?

Anyway to me it seems a bit dangerous that the rockers are that loose at any time since let's say i go on a ferry that vibrates quite a bit the rockers might get dislocated and crack !!! when the engine is started again. Something must be wrong with either the cam , lifters or both.

I read on another forum that if something goes wrong with the lifters during the breakin period the cam lobes can go flat in 15 minutes wich in my case would explain why the rockers seem to get more and more loose if it's that way i guess i will have a 0.050 max lift pretty soon.

G�ran: The lash seems to stay the same even if i check it the next day. I thought that i could get that springloaded feeling in the lifter back and re-set the lifters but that does not seem to work.. my lifters feels solid now no matter how long i wait.

Ill tear the intake off and have a look at the lifters and an also check if the cam has been damaged by this...I guess that the easiest way of checking the camlobes is to place a dial indicator on the edge of the lifter and then make it "zero" when the lifter is on the heel.

To me this whole problem seems as if the plunger is stuck in the bottom of the lifter at all times until it randomly gets released by heat,vibration and or increased oil pressure.


[This message has been edited by Soulcollector (edited 07-16-2004).]

I have the same set up, and had the same problem on a couple of valves when I first started the engine. What happened on mine was the rocker studs started to back out of the head, opening up the clearance. The directions state that the studs need to go into a CLEAN, DRY hole, use Loctite and propery torque them. I had a couple back out slightly, causing extra cleance. This might be the problem. Good luck.
Paul #3040

Soul!... A couple of things come to mind: 1. Did you 'pre-lube' the Hydraulic lifters before installing them, by pumping oil in the side holes with and oil pumper can?. 2. Could you be adjusting the valves 360 Degrees 'OFF' from the 'True' Top Dead Center (both Cylinder #1 Valves are on the lobe 'heels'); So that you have started adjusting the valves on the TDC of the Exhaust stroke; which is incorrect? 3. I do not think it is correct to adjust the lash on Hydraulic lifters, While the engine is running, as with Mechanical Lifters. 4. On your 'Poly-Locks', you MUST tighten BOTH the Poly-Lock AND it's SET SCREW simultaniously!! Or they will never stay locked, and will back-off. 5. If you have lost the "Springy" feel in the lifters; they have either, NOT 'Pressurized' properly(see #1) or they have collapsed. 6. If you DID NOT completely cover the Cam and lifters with Moly-Disulfide or other 'Break-In' lube; and then run your Engine, on it's initial start-up, at 2500 RPM for at least 20 minutes; Then you have destroyed your cam lobes. Good-Luck with it! Regards, Marlin.

To add to what Marlin Jack said. Check the clearance between the pushrods and guide plates causing your adjustment issues. This area is prone to binding if the machine work was done improperly.
Good luck !

A few things come to mind:
first, spinning the pushrod between thumb & finger while tightening to find zero-lash often doesn't work on fast0bleed lifters (especially new ones empty of oil) because the bleed passage removes most of the normal resistence when you get to zero lash. A modified method is to slightly lift up as lash is reduced until no motion can bes detected. I always hot-adjust lifters (both solid & hydraulic) with the engine running, anyway.
2)- popping thru the carb indicates an intake valve problem, going lean etc Theres no connection between the carb & exhaust unless BOTH valves are hing open. Exhaust pops are heard in the headers.
3)- with roller rockerarms, its possible to install them with the rocker shaft upside down so the flat nut-relief is down toward the stud and the round section is upward. Adjustments will not stay locked in this position.
4)- its also possible to put a pushrod on the edge of the lifter seat and go thru the wholer exercise. Then when you start the engine, the pushrod normally drops to the seat and you got 1/4" clearance on that valve....
Finally, "springy" lifters usually don't have oil in them. Ones that feel solid are obviously full, which is as it should be after firing the engine.

Its very easy, just look at the lifters, and they should have a convex surface, nice and smoth. To bad your not in the neighborhood....
Goran Malmberg

Thanks for all your replys.


We removed the intake today and the sight was unplesant to say the least. We managed to remove all but 7 lifters the right way and one of them had been chewed down almost 1/4" and that lifter was the only one that the plunger spring still worked in...The cam looked OK on a couple of lobes but all of the lifters was worn in one way or another ?!

Bad cam cast ?

All brand new parts $2000 wrecked in 30minutes.
I'll get in touch with JEGS and Compcams and discuss this. Everything has been assembled based on their instructions. But as usual i'll probably get no compensation from Compcams or JEGS.

How should i proceed...i assume that i need to take the whole thing apart and flush it so i get rid of all the metallic debris ?

PS. I'll post pictures of this nightmare later on..right now i'm busy removing the engine and taking it apart..AGAIN !!! Douh !

Thanks
/Jonas

[This message has been edited by Soulcollector (edited 07-18-2004).]

In your original paets list, you mentioned a bunch of aftermarket parts. By chance was not mentioned an oil restrictor kit? Because the restrictor kits go into the main bearing-to-cam bearing passsages and one is provided to restrict oil to one bank of lifters.... IF you're running a solid lifter cam. If you're running hydraulics, especially fast-bleed hydraulic lifters, you leave that restrictor out. Otherwise, oil starvation will occur to all the left-side lifters.Nothing's free, you know- fast-bleeds use more oil than normal hydraulics. Distasteful though it may be right now, I would totally disassemble the engine and scrub it clean. First, you need to catalgue all the stuff thats wwasted. Second, all that iron went somewhere and is likely just waiting for a chance to pop out in your new motor. Don't be like the racer that blew up seven (7.0) engines in a row in his stock-car by re-using the same not-too-clean baffled pan & oil cooler after each blow-up.

I did not install a restrictor kit as i had read about the oil-pressure issues that came with it. The lifters are the standard comp-cams 832-16 wich they recomend. and not the fastbleed premium that they also offer..

Anyway i'll get on with the teardown now so that i might get to have a ride in it before the snow starts falling.

PS. Any good tips on speedshops in florida...i'm on my way to miami and i will spend some time shopping too.

I dont think there is any material or cam fabrication problems. More likley as what Jack says. OR, something with the break in.
One may scuff hte brake in lube away from the lifters by to loong cranking period of the starter. Then if the rpm dont raise to 2000, becouse of idle afjustments on the new carb,the situation become even worse.

THE FIRST COUPPLE OF REVELUTION IS MOST IMPORTANT.

Here the cam lube makes its work, but not for very long if the engine dont fire up.

Goran Malmberg

[This message has been edited by hemip (edited 07-19-2004).]

Sorry to hear that the engine is trashed. That is the main reason I went to a roller cam set up !

The break-in went smooth..we kept the engine over 2500 until it reaced operating temperature. and we primed the machine before startup. also we use a electric fuelpump and this caused the engine to start right away. This is why i can't understand how this could happen ?!?!

We have disassembled the engine now and first all the bearings are wasted totaly.
The pistons should be rotating freely on the rods but they are stuck and need a lot of force to twist.

I think i'll have to sell all the parts that are ok and buy a new engine instead. I don't want to risk this happening again that's for sure.

I know what you are saying about the break in period. I've found if the spring pressures are too low or too high this causes failure of the cam. I read what you had for springs and that makes me wonder if the spring pressures were low.
whatever engine package you go with please consider the roller. It's a few bucks more but that won't happen again. Be sure if you go that route to change the dist.gear. DO NOT go with the brass/bronze gear. Get the steel version. It'll keep you from sitting on the side of the road.
Good Luck on you next move.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soulcollector:

We have disassembled the engine now and first all the bearings are wasted totaly.
The pistons should be rotating freely on the rods but they are stuck and need a lot of force to twist.

[/B]

---

All the bearings! If the oil is not reaching the bearings, the cam for sure will NOT get splasch oiled as it should.
Pleas tell us what went wrong. Must be something with the oiling. Maybe in the pump region.
Goran Malmberg

Assuming that the oiling system was working, you had good oil pressure and you could see a good amount of oil on the rockers, valve springs, etc, most of the engines that I�ve seen wipe out the lifters as you described, was caused by valve spring bind. Valve spring bind is caused by a valve spring setup that can not handle the lift of the cam and rocker ratio and the springs bottom out before the cam can fully open the valve.

Mike

Mike: Yepp i hope that Comp-cams have put the right parts in the boxes since everything was ordered new from comp-cams own list of matching parts.

Can someone please explain how the piston-pins could get stuck in the pistons i can hardly turn the piston on the rods.If something has been grinding it should be more loose not tighter ?!

Anyway here's som pictures of the mess (not for the faint of heart) http://www.soulcollector.se/Nemesis/jpg/panterastuff/wreck/lifter01.jpg http://www.soulcollector.se/Nemesis/jpg/panterastuff/wreck/lifter02.jpg http://www.soulcollector.se/Nemesis/jpg/panterastuff/wreck/lifter03.jpg http://www.soulcollector.se/Nemesis/jpg/panterastuff/wreck/cam&lifters-cyl-3&7.jpg http://www.soulcollector.se/Nemesis/jpg/panterastuff/wreck/cam&lifters-cyl-4&8.jpg

Note that that the lifters and cam lobes on cylinder 4 & 8 have survived and they are as far from the oilpump as anything in the engine could be... hard to explain by poor oilpressure then. Also note that the only lifter that returns to the top again without oilpressure is the one that has been grinded all the way thru. all the others are welded stuck.



[This message has been edited by Soulcollector (edited 07-20-2004).]

Soul,

I'm very sorry to read about and see your engine woes. I hope your next engine turns out better than you expect!

Michael

I went with a roller cam and lifters in my 351C. The cost was about $250 for the cam (Comp Cams) and About $400 for the roller lifters (Crane). I'm very happy with their performance. I say go for it!

Well, if I dare to joke a bit.
"Its very easy, just look at the lifters, and they should have a convex surface, nice and smoth."
Those lifters is not only beeing concave but shorter!
Soul C...
Can someone please explain how the piston-pins could get stuck in the pistons i can hardly turn the piston on the rods.If something has been grinding it should be more loose not tighter ?!

No, if the piston is press fitted into the small end, the only sliding surface is between aluminium and steel. If not oiled aluminium gets stuck to steel and the alu-surface brakes loose and gets in between the play. The process accelerate as the engine run, and the pin gets stuck in a mess of aluminium.
Goran Malmberg



[This message has been edited by hemip (edited 07-20-2004).]

G�ran: Yepp that is correct.

Anyway i cant understand how the pistons get stuck since the pistons & pins must have been splashed with oil from the crank.
I mean would this have happend anyway even if the cam didn't give up ?

BTW. One more thing i noticed when looking closer on the comp-cams online catalog.

It says that i must do machine work on my cyl-heads when using the 924-16 springs.

What kind of machinework would that require ?

Another thing i just noticed was that i have used 928-16 springs instead of the 924-16 that compcams recomend...humm i guess that does not help the cam to much.

i saw that the 924-16 has a 1.200" coil bind and 315lbs open load

while the 928-16 springs have 1.160" coil bind and 371lbs open load.

MAJOR DOUH !

I knew i should have stayed in the sandbox and built sandcastles instead of growing up and trying to build engines


[This message has been edited by Soulcollector (edited 07-20-2004).]

As the pin has scuffed the metal, ther must have been some lack of oiling. Probably in the very first minute of running, that you didnt observe. One is quite nervous when fire up for the first time and dont get everything under control.

When those scuffing prosess has get started,
they tend to proceed. Did you prelube the engine by a chaft down the distributor hole?
Long hoses to a oil cooler? Filled up the oilfilter in advance? A non primed oilpump may take a while to get vorking.

If not anything of my suggestion is true, do check the olipump and pic up.
Goran Malmberg

[This message has been edited by hemip (edited 07-20-2004).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soulcollector:
G�ran: Yepp that is correct.

Anyway i cant understand how the pistons get stuck since the pistons & pins must have been splashed with oil from the crank.
I mean would this have happend anyway even if the cam didn't give up ?

BTW. One more thing i noticed when looking closer on the comp-cams online catalog.

It says that i must do machine work on my cyl-heads when using the 924-16 springs.

What kind of machinework would that require ?

Another thing i just noticed was that i have used 928-16 springs instead of the 924-16 that compcams recomend...humm i guess that does not help the cam to much.

i saw that the 924-16 has a 1.200" coil bind and 315lbs open load

while the 928-16 springs have 1.160" coil bind and 371lbs open load.

MAJOR DOUH !

I knew i should have stayed in the sandbox and built sandcastles instead of growing up and trying to build engines


[This message has been edited by Soulcollector (edited 07-20-2004).]

---

Sorry for your misfortune!! Yes, It�s looking like the cam wiped out because of spring bind. Don�t feel bad, it is a common problem if the valve train is not very carefully checked and matched up with the cam lift. Didn�t the oil turn black within a short time during the startup and run in?

Mike




[This message has been edited by www.PanteraPlace.com (edited 07-20-2004).]

I found my cam card and on that it says that i should use 928-16 ?!

The oil was pretty black quite soon yes...how long should it take normaly for the oil to turn black ?

Quite confusing...I'll check this up with comp cams... but since they dont have an email or forum and i dont think i can call an 1-800 number from sweden. i'll have to do it while i'm in FL.

Anyway thanks all for your input on this it has enlighted me quite a bit.

Cheers
Jonas Wikstrom


[This message has been edited by Soulcollector (edited 07-21-2004).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Soul,

I'm very sorry to read about and see your engine woes. I hope your next engine turns out better than you expect!

Michael

I went with a roller cam and lifters in my 351C. The cost was about $250 for the cam (Comp Cams) and About $400 for the roller lifters (Crane). I'm very happy with their performance. I say go for it!

---

Cyboman: What do i need to run a rollercam instead of a flat tappet ?

I have read about some stuff but as usual i get 10 diffrent stories depending on where i look.

1. Can i use a geardrive on a rollercam ?
2. Can i use the crane adjustable valvetrain ?

etc.

/ Jonas W

Usually what 'machining the valve spring pockets' means is to either increase the diameter of the pocket so a larger diameter spring end sits flat inside, and to adjust the height of the springs: they are rated at so-many-pounds of pressure per inch and are designed to be at a certain height when assembled. If they're too long, you can add flat washer-shims to tighten things up, but if they're too short, when the cam attempts to lift them, the coils hit each other. This is called "coil-bind" and is very very bad. Essentially, the whole valvetrain assembly goes solid but the cam continues to attempt to lift. This could easily have caused your troubles. Its also possible to seleect parts that allow the valve spring retainer to hit the end of the valve giude at full lift, again causing the assembly to "become solid" and destroying the guide seals. Don't get discouraged- we all make mistakes- this is called "learning from experience". I guarantee you will NEVER make such an assembly error again. I have a few mistakes of my own tucked away in my memory, by the way. As I said, a thorough cleaning will rescue most of your aftermarket parts for re-use. The first assembly was only a mid-term quiz; the final exam is coming up when you reassemble!
A gear drive will work on any cam setup, as its attached to the front of the cam and crank. A Crane adjustable valvetrain will work on any cam, with any rockerarms and lifters. But with a roller cam, you'll definitely need different springs and shorter pushrods, as roller lifters (either hydraulic or solid) are heavier and longer. Another thing that happens with roller cams in a block not designed for roller cams is, its possible to select a cam that attempts to open too far, lifting the roller wheel up into the lifter oil channel. This then creates a massive oil leak at each lifter, each revolution of the cam. Crank bearings do not live long with this setup. There are shrouded lifters (smaller roller wheels) that prevent this, or cut-down dimensionss on the cam features, or other more complicated ways around the difficulty.

Jonas,

All you need is the roller cam and roller lifters. If you are going to exceed the stock cams lift by more than just a bit, you are going to have to go to an adjustable valvetrain (which I believe you already have).

After speaking with Comp Cams Tech support, I decided to go with a custom ground cam (no exta cost, extra time to grind). If you plan on using a stock Ford 5.0L roller lifter setup, you will have to get a reduced base circle cam because those lifters have longer bodies than aftermarket ones. I decided that going with the best hydraulic roller lifters I could get would give me less to worry about. A standard base circle cam will give you slightly better valve action. The lifters are in pairs linked by a flat bar on their sides to stop them from rotating. The cam is not billet steel, so I didn't have to change my distributor gear.

There are many advantages to going with a roller cam:
No 20 minute break-in required at start up, so if you have a leak or lack of pressure, you can shut the engine down and address it immediately without worry.
It delivers a broader powerband that starts sooner in the RPM band, which translates to more bottom end, a great benefit for a 351C.
They rev higher and faster (hydraulic lifters of any kind will limit RPM to about 6500-7000 max).
It will make more power than an exact spec flat tappet cam will. This means you can go with a smaller cam and make the same power (it will be more streetable), or you can go with the same specs and make more power.
They don't wear as quickly as a flat tappet cam and lifters. As you already know, when a flat tappet cam starts going, it throws off lots of metal into your engine.
Roller cams make more power by reducing friction and by holding the valve open longer for the same duration. This means that once the valve starts to open, it shoots open faster, hangs open longer, then closes more suddenly than a flat tappet cam of the same specs, thereby ingesting more of a 'charge'.
I'm told they also deliver better gas mileage.

The disadvantages that I can see are the initial cost, and higher spring pressures. A flat tappet cam and lifter kit costs about $150. As you can see, It cost me $650 just for the cam and lifters, a $500 difference, or about 4 times more! I obviously felt it was worth it, and still do. Roller lifters are heavier, necessitating the higher spring pressures to push the lifters back down. This may mean changing the valve springs sooner as a stiffer spring loses its strength faster. I will always use a roller cam in my engine buildups.

Here is the combo in my '74 Pantera:

Stock 351C 4 bolt block, .020 over, no oil restrictor kit
Stock crank, micropolished
Stock rods, shotpeened with ARP wavelock rod bolts
Keith Black hyperuetectic pistons, .100 dome delivers about 10.3:1 compression
Plasma moly rings, Clevite 77 bearings
Stock Melling oil pump (not high pressure or volume)
Pete Jackson silent gear drive
Fluiddampr balancer
Stock steel flywheel, dual friction clutch
Balanced reciprocating assembly
Stock baffled oil pan and pick-up, 6 quarts of oil (not synthetic)

Cam specs:
Comp Cams roller: 236 int. & 244 exh duration @ .050, .619 lift, 112 degree lobe separation, ground straight up (not advanced or retarded), installed straight up.

Heads:
Stock Cleveland 4bbl open chamber
Bowl blended and gasket matched
Machined for screw in rocker studs, guide plates
One piece stainless steel single groove 2.19 int & 1.71 exh valves, 3 angle valve job
Triple springs (matched to cam), hardened locks and retainers
Crane 1.7 roller rockers to reduce valve lift a bit (stock is 1.73)
I have about $1200 into the heads, parts and labor.

Misc:
Edelbrock Torker, gasket matched
Holley 750 vacuum secondary
MPG intake and exhaust restrictor plates
Mallory dual point dist with Pertronix Ignitor
MSD 6A, Blaster 2 coil
Taylor Spiro Pro wires
Split Fire spark plugs, .55 gap
Stock fuel pump
FelPro blue Permatorque head gaskets
34 degrees total timing by 2800 RPM

The power band on this motor is about 1500 to 6500 RPM. It wants to go further, but the rods and hydraulic lifters will become an issue above that. I built the motor with that in mind. It idles at about 750 RPM with no drama. This motor makes about 400 HP at a cost of about $4000 from air cleaner to oil pan for all parts, machine work and labor, heads included. The weak link is my exhaust: the headers are 1 5/8, dumpimg into 1 3/4 collectors! The pipes are 2 inches! If I weren't selling this car (I also have an '86 GT5-S Targa), the plan was to go to a 2 inch primary header and a 2 1/2 inch pipe. This would probably yield about 450 HP as the current exhaust is a major restriction. I'm told with some serious tweaking, and possibly stepping up the cam a bit, I can get to around 500 HP.

I credit the roller cam and valetrain, along with the port plates for the wide and powerful powerband (although the port plates burned the paint off the upper exhaust port, where the lower head bolts are). This motor is BRUTAL compared with the stock 351C in my '86 5-S, which is supposed to have about 350 HP. This car is a lot of fun to drive with this motor in it. I expect it to live for a long time as well. It gets about 15 (or so) MPG, even with my foot in it. I gave you a full rundown on my motor so you that you have an idea of a real world combination.

There are places in the motor that turn money into power. Stepping up to a full roller valvetrain (cam and lifters included)in my opinion is a smart move. Otherwise, you're leaving easy power on the table.

I hope this helps you Jonas, and good luck!

Michael

Yes Jack, I forgot to mention the shorter length pushrods.

Mark,

Cyboman@optonline.net

How's your engine coming along? Lenore sends you her best. Give us a call and I'll give you a head count on the August show.

Michael

Both cam lobes and pin to piston has scuffed.
Theese are both splasch oiled, showing that no "splasch" of the oil has occured. In other words, no oil has passed out the rod bearings.
Goran Malmberg

Cyboman,if you want to experiment a bit on this stuff, Joe Schubeck in Las Vegas has some 'roller' lifters that use NO needle bearings or roller axles at all. Instead, Joe uses direct pressure feed of oil to proprietary carbide wheels that run on an oil film in a carefully designed cavity. The original use was Top Fuel, where roller lifters typically last one run (if you're lucky) before the bearings shatter and the needles then take out the cam drive. He also has rocker arms that use the same proprietary material on the tip and claims friction and wear is virtually non-existent, even with the locomotive-valve springs used in Top Fuel engines. Joe is a well-respected innovater and engine builder. POCA visited his shop during the recent Fun Rally. He says he can make these for any engine. Info at www.schubeckracing.com

Jack,

Thanks for opening my eyes to something new. I checked out the web site and those roller lifters seem very innovative. I'm shooting for this winter for another engine project and if I can justify spending just under $1000 for a set of roller lifters, I just may try them. If my budget allows, I will definitely give them a shot! If and when I do go for them, I'll let you know how they work out. Thanks again, and enjoy your day.

Michael