Air conditioning

If the Panteras are equipped with the oem York a/c compressors, then that's the problem. By now they leak very badly, can't hold freon, & recharging constantly with R12 is expensive. To swap to R134A is also expensive.

So the owners have chosen to run without them.

The path of least resistance would be a new compressors & drier, a good flushing, a 24 hour purging & a refill with a/c compressor oil and R12 at $30+ per pound.

However, if you have replaced the compressor & drier, you are 1/2 the way towards what is needed to convert to R134A.

cowboy from hell

If you go with R134a, you probably need to rehose the a/c system, too. The old hoses are too porous for the smaller molecules of R134a

Hi So the cost to do this ? I see the compressors at ~$400 or so. Would the evaporator and condensor still work with R 134 ?

When I look at cars for sale I try and estimate the cost to get it to a level I would be happy with. I then bid accordingly. A/C is a big deal when you are in the California Central Valley on the highwway 5 race track

Chris,

that'll be something to discuss with Jerry next Saturday.

All of the elastomer (rubber) in your a/c system is not compatible with R134A, so as Jeff mentioned, you'll need to replace hoses, o-rings, etc. That's why R134A requires a different compressor too, the seals, gaskets etc are made of different materials for the R12 compressor and the R134A compressor. The lubricant is not compatible either, so it must be flushed out and replaced with compatible lubricant. Finally, there's the expansion valve. The R134A will require replacement of the expansion valve to do the job properly.

The drier should be replaced whenever the compressor is replaced, and any 30 year old car needs a new drier.

The condenser is the weak link in the Pantera a/c system, it is small and the associated fan is rather anemic. I would suggest relocating the a/c condenser to the front of the vehicle. Regardless of where the condenser is mounted I also recommend replacement with a larger condenser & more powerful fan assembly. Bill (aka lastpushbutton)has installed the condenser & fan assembly from a different vehicle that fits well & works better, you can contact him for details.

There are several very good cars for sale at PI Motorsports right now, and there are some good ones listed on the Pantera International web site as well. Its a good time to buy if you like yellow! Mike Mayberry at Mayberry Lincoln Mercury in North Hollywood also has an excellent Pantera in his showroon at this time. Mike has my highest recommendation.

best of luck hunting,

George

Hi I will be looking closely at the vehicles this Saturday, that white one with blue strpes is very attractive.

cquirk, I was able to upgrade my A/C to 134a system with new everything except evaporator/blower (the weak link now) for under $700 and a lot of patience and elbow grease; I'm bascially cheap and do enjoy working on the beast. I also had to fabricate a shroud for the larger condenser. It blows cold, too.

Ron

VERY IMPRESSIVE !


Any other pics of the condensor etc would be appreciated.

Two years ago I converted my 88 GMC FROM R12 to R134. I paid $35 to have the R12 evacuated. I bought a recharge and retrofit kit from Autozone for $50. I spent another $12 or maybe $12 times two for some more refrigerant with stop leak. Two years later it is still blowing cold air and now I don't have to pay a shop to add R12. It doesn't freeze me out and the compressor cycles a lot for the first couple of minutes but it didn't cost me a thousand bucks either. A cheaper way to skin the cat.
Art

I have my condensor in the front on my car, and in Az when it is 115 degrees out it blows ice cold. A great improvement.

quote:

Originally posted by cquirk:
...Any other pics of the condensor etc would be appreciated...

There is a pic of Bill's condenser in the current issue of Pantera International magazine, we did a story on his car.

The coming issue (you know the late one) will feature a tech article on relocating the condenser to the front.

cowboy from hell

My condenser, fabricated shroud, 1000cfm fan, and barrier hoses routed out of engine bay. I've since cleaned up the wiring, too.

Ron,

A question just occured to me, does the trunk tub still fit with the wider condenser installed?

cowboy from hell

Yes, the trunk tub will fit with the wider condensor. It is height that is the problem. Here is my version of larger condensor retrofit. The larger condensor was the single biggest improvement in temperature.

Dave,

Is this the P.I. condensor upgrade, or something you searched out?

Details appreciated.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Ron,

A question just occured to me, does the trunk tub still fit with the wider condenser installed?

cowboy from hell

The condenser is a little wider and higher than stock but the tub still fits, George. Note that I also moved the drier out of the engine bay.

Ron

One of the guys here in Arizona installed two new and wider condensors (one on top of the other) with fans and the tub still fits.

Here is a picture as he was installing them

Excellent information guys

Thanks

When 134A first was being introduced to replace R12 in or around 1993-4, the manufacturers recommended changing compressor oils, rubber hoses, reciever/driers and condensers.
In reality you don't need to change anything.
I would say that from personal experience, the York piston compressors don't like the 134A.
They don't addapt well to the higher operating pressure it creates. The Sanyo rotary compressor is what you want.
You can buy a recoditoned one for $100. The adaptor for the York base bracket is $20.
Charge the system with R134a until you get a temperature of about 50 degrees F blowing out of the registers and leave the system alone.
It is factual to say that the R12 is capable of giving you temps in the high 40's from the register.
These are the only two signifigant factors I have come across in the last ten years.
I've converted a bunch of R12 cars so there is a track record with the conversion as far as I am concerned.
FYI, I am being told that the Freeze12 is the simplest way to go. It is cheap, enviornmentally safe and is as cold as R12.
I personally haven't used it yet.
Also check out ebay for R12. A lot of people still have cases of it sitting around and performance wise it is absolutely the most effect refrigerant for automotive applications.

Is there a specific model of the Sandin compressor? Model # that is used?

Thanks, Chip

Chip,

The Sanden/Sankyo compressor is a Type SD-508 and I believe model # 8390; at least that is what I have sat out in my garage ready for fitment one day, so I hope its right!

Julian

Chip, I used a Sanden 508. It's basically the same unit used by many hot rodders. Bought on eBay from someone who had a new compressor chromed, and the chrome turned out a little yellow. I didn't care since can't see it anyway.

Ron

They are pretty generic.

quote:

Is there a specific model of the Sandin compressor? Model # that is used?

I picked up a NOS remanufactured one on eBay for $95 a while back. By Evap Inc, their #2162.

Box listed the following numbers for other companies -
Delco 15-2929
4-Seasons 57033
EVERCO A8597
Murray 254007

It is the Sanden #8390, but other Sanden #'s have the same internals and mounting layout. Some of the Sanden part number differences are for pulley type - two groove or serpentine belt. And r-12 or 134 fittings and seal compatability. Fitting adapter kits can take an r12 unit to 134 fittings, but I don't know if a 134 can be taken to r12 fittings.

Street rodders have adopted this 8390 style and these seem to be selling around $200, but I am wondering if these are China knockoffs and thus of questionable quality?

The adapter plate to mount them in place of our stock York units is very generic, our vendors, NAPA and eBay can source them for you. Most are steel, some aluminum for weight savings.

Larry

Fitting adapter kits can take an r12 unit to 134 fittings, but I don't know if a 134 can be taken to r12 fittings.

If you're replacing your old York compressor and still have the original hoses, they should be replaced with vapor barrier hoses. The A/C shop that makes your hoses can put either type fittings on the hoses depending on your requirements.

Dan

That's exactly what I did, Dan. Had my barrier hoses made such that I could route them out of the engine bay, relocate the dryer, and have all o-ring fittings except for a flare fitting to match up with the stock evaporator; I used an o-ring-to-flare adapter where the 134a expansion valve connects to the evaporator. I had the shop make the hose with the flare fitting longer than needed so I can cut off that fitting and change to an o-ring fitting whenever I decide to upgrade the evaporator/blower assembly.

Ron

You'll find with a larger condenser there are no drawbacks to 134A whatsoever. The only cars that run warmer after 134A conversion are those with condensers too small for the application, such as subcompacts. The tiny condenser & weak fan have always been the Panteras a/c system weakest link.

good luck to all, I think this has been a very informative topic.

cowboy from hell

Even the original hoses are fine with 134. Studies have shown that years of impregnation with Mineral oil acts as a barier for 134 and it wont leak. If you need to replace a hose, then you must use barrier hose. I have 134 in my car with original hoses and have no leak problems. With modified condensor it gets down to 38 deg.

Just noticed that earlier in this posting someone inquired about my condensor conversion. This conversion was of my own design and not from PI. I did it several years ago. I researched a universal condensor out of the catalogs at the auto parts place. I made a shroud and added a high performance fan. The results of the conversion and test were documented in a POCA newsletter and on the Email forum. It works quite well, but the a closed deck lid or the tub causes reduced performance. I plan to mount the same condensor up front for better air flow.

Another comment about alternatives. I have tried them and they work well. FridgC, Freeze12 and Envirosafe all work but have the disadvantage of availability and not being able to top off. Also, with a proper condensor, the 134 only runs about 5% higher pressure than the R12 which makes it no problem wiht the york compressor. The condensor is the biggest problem.

In my experience with 134a the York clutch will either slip or the belt will.
It can't handle the added pressure. Even if it does, the compressor with it's little connecting rods will be on borrowed time.
The rotary is the way to go. It's only $100. About as much as one tank full of gas these days.

Hey Dave,
I don't remember you saying exactly what size condensor you put on your car. Do you remember? I'm going to do the same as you. I just want to be in the ballpark on the size.

It is a universal condensor core designed for R134. All aluminum manifold design. It is 12 by 22.5 long. It can be special ordered from many auto parts stores but is also available here.

http://www.ackits.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Parallel

I must have got lucky, my 1973 York Compressor still works great!

Thanks Dave. That's exactly what I was looking for.