aluminum heads

Wow, I have thought the same thing. I have had Edlebrock heads in the past and they have always worked great as well as being well made.
I have no experience with the other aluminum pieces out there. I lean toward the Edelbrocks, just out of familiarity.
"Mustang and Fast Ford, November 2004, page 172, ran a test on the 3V CHI Heads and they got a great review. You can check chiheads,com and I beleive these are the heads PI Motorsports sells.
Good Luck,
Mitch

LPB,

I too checked mine a week or so back, scared to drive the car after all the bad press here about 2 piece stock valves, regressing to 2 pieces. Then I thought; why would I rebuild these and not just get some aftermarket heads.....then why would I just stick aftermarket heads on a 30 year old motor...might as well rebuild the bottoem end to take them. Before you know it I'm looking at stroker motors and major investment

I haven't read it yet, but the latest PI issue has an article by Jack DeRyke on aftermarket heads.

In searching I have been swaying toward the AFD heads, they seem pretty good right out the box and I think have port locations/sizes that mate right up with your existing intake and headers.

Julian

Joules I end up in the same delema.... I pulled the motor due to a jambed oil pump ... then due to bad press on the blocks .. found a XE block .. come to find out the engine builder pulled a set of C302B's out of the back of his shop with intake ... so now I'm up to buying a SCAT stroker kit.... WEW it will be some engine but beware of the snow ball effect.

Ron

The easiest, least painful way to convert to alloy heads, that will require the least amount of additional new parts, is to purchase 4V heads from CHI. The CHI 4V head is basically their 3V head, with the intake port opening machined to the size of the oem 4V port.

AFD will also machine the ports of their 4V heads to the full size of the oem 4V port on special order. (AFD standard 4V head has a "stuffed" intake port configuration).

Another alternative would be to use the 2V head from either CHI or AFD and combine that with either an Edelbrock Performer 2V intake, or the new Edelbrock Perfromer RPM air-gap intake.

You can't go wrong with either choice, the 2V heads will make a better street motor. The 4V heads will allow use of certain 4V intake manifolds, like the Holley Strip Dominator, Blue Thunder, Boss 351, etc.

There are also high rise, single plane, spider intakes for 2V, 3V or 4V heads, although the price, to your door will be about $750 USD.

Your friend on the DTBB

750 for the intake?

quote:

Originally posted by lastpushbutton:
750 for the intake?

Yeah.....hefty price tag.

They're from Australia. All Aussie intakes are very expensive by the time they get to your door. The 2V & "stuffed" 4V intakes are the Parker Funnel Web intakes, the 3V intake is made by CHI for their heads. They are all good intakes, all sit the carbs up very, very high. Look at the intake on Gary's 434 motor to get an idea how high the CHI intake is.

The intakes are not needed for a "good street motor". They work very impressively at the upper rpm range. They look bitchen too! They are not for the guy, like me, that wants to keep the motor under the engine screen.

One caveat. Mustangs Unlimited is selling a "Parker Funnel Web" intake for $269. This can't possibly be a real Paker intake, it is assumed that it is a cheap Chinese copy.

your friend on the DTBB

Another worthy consideration are the CHI 3V heads, with the 2 plane manifold designed specifically for the 3V head. The manifold sits the carb just low enough to fit carb & air filter below the engine screen. The manifold looks like the Ford D1ZX-9424-DA intake, but the design has been tweeked to make more power.

Because this manifold is from Australia, it will be expensive.

The high port 3V head plus this intake may very well be the best street combo available.

Your friend on the DTBB

So with the heads and maybe new headers you guys are talking three thousand bucks or so. I bought a whole engine with a three year warrenty for that. Not a critisism, in fact if I had the money I would spend it all on goodies, but thankfully I don't have the money.

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
So with the heads and maybe new headers you guys are talking three thousand bucks or so...

With 4V heads, there is no need to purchase anything other than the heads, just use the manifold you got!

With 2V heads, an inexpensive US manufactured Edelbrock manifold can be selected.

I'm just providing answers before the questions are asked.

your friend on the DTBB

I didn't mean that as critisism at all. I was just saying these things are like computers. For just a little bit more money, you can have this thing and then for a little bit more than that, you can get this really cool feature, and then, before you know what has happened, your three hundred buck computer has cost you eight hundred.

Below is the content of an e-mail to aus-ford-parts, from a satisfied AFD customer:

"I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for the heads I purchased. You worked with me one on one to insure I had the right setup for my motor.

I've got my motor together and it runs way above my expectations! I'm running well over 600hp with the 2V Cleveland heads on my 393 Stroker and I've got power brakes without a vacuum pump!

I can't wait to surprise my Chevy boys this spring at the track!

Here is my set up for my 68 cougar.

AFD 2V Heads
Edelbrock Air Gap Manifold
Mighty Demon 830 carb
Howard Camshafts - Solid Roller Cam/Lifters/Rockers/Girdle
MSD Ignition
4bbl headers
Ford AOD transmission (Modified with AOD Lockout and Stall converter)
4:54 True track"

I do not intend for this to be an endorsement of AFD heads, but rather an example of what the new generation of alloy 2V heads can accomplish.

393 cubic inches, 600 bhp, most impressive.

your freind on the DTBB

Depending on how one feels about the Pantera engine screen, the decision is probably going to be made on the intake manifold.
All of the intakes and heads that make power are systems.
It is rather easy and almost commonplace to make 500 to 550hp with 357 cubes. That will give you 450 to 460 lbs-ft of torque.
The strokers are so cheap now that they certainly are that much more attractive but you don't need them.
In fact in my day, I heard more then a few 427 people talk about destroking so that there would be more rpms available.
I personally don't see the value of buying 2v heads and spending $2500 to port them.
The 4v heads are the way to go.
You guys don't want to hear it from me anymore BUT there isn't any current head that has anything over the A3 Motorsport. They may be equal but not better.
By the same token if you are going to invest in a nice aluminum head system, please don't come back to the forum and ask what's wrong with my engine and tell us that you put a hydraulic lifter RV camshaft in it.
The scream generated by the 180's isn't from cubes it's from rpm and camshaft timing.
The Webers don't contribute other then attracting ugly biker girls.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
...I personally don't see the value of buying 2v heads and spending $2500 to port them...

the alloy 2V heads from CHI & AFD, which sell for around $1800 to your door in the US, will support 600 bhp "unported", no further money to be spent.

the cast iron 302C heads on the other hand, will only support 500 bhp fully ported, and by then you would have more money invested in them than a set of alloy heads.

your friend on the DTBB

What's the difference from the Chi 4V & 3V.

quote:

Originally posted by jwr2968:
What's the difference from the Chi 4V & 3V.

the opening of the intake port is machined larger to match the size of the oem 4V intake manifolds. That's the only difference.

I'll take a moment and make sure you understand the concept of a 3V port. The 3V port is 2V in size, but it is raised approx. 3/8" so that the roof of the port is the same height as the roof of a 4V port. If it were raised another 3/8", it would approximate the location of the ports in the C302 Ford Motorsport heads.

your friend on the DTBB

I guess that the 4v heads are redundent or do they make 800 out of the box?
There is a bridge for sale here George, has toll booths and everything, no money down!

Hey Doug.Why would anyone want to destroke the 427 to increase RPM.The 427 aready has a short stroke anyway,as compare to the 428.And whats up with ugly biker girls?

John Kaase won the 2004 Engine Masters competition with CHI 3V heads. Below is a link to his comments on the motor:

http://www.chiheads.com/testimonials.php#video


Doug, the 3V heads have a 2V size port, raised about 3/8". The 4V head uses the same port, only opened up at the intake flange to mate with 4V intakes. Cylinder head technology has improved over the last 30 years. I imagine they build better bridges these days too. lol......

your friend on the DTBB

I guess it just gets boring after awhile. It's always nice to keep a nice high reving SB around to make you feel more like you're driving a Formula 1 car.
I think someone refered to the Mark IV as the bread truck. They could be two speed automatics and still blow everyone away.
I suppose too that it's just that, "the grass is always greener on the other side of the street" thing.
My solution is to keep one of everything. When I get tired of all that rpm stuff and rowing through the gears I just drive the BB. You don't even need 1st gear with those things. The Pantera is the middle one. Maybe it's the just right size?

I think with proven technology of heads and intake combinations that come as a System is the way to go. I have an engine builder who has built some high horsepower 351C's. Mixing and matching heads and intakes is a mistake unless there is dyno testing that supports those theories. Edelbrock CHI AFD all have this back up. Ford Motorsport stuff has it also.

The difference of 2V 3v and 4v is all about RPM HP and Torque that your looking for. if your going to wind the 351C up to 7000 or higher that will be the only way to see advantages of a 4V head. A 2V head maybe in the up to 5000rpm. 3V maybe you get somewhere in between with the best of both worlds.

as I have said before an engine builder with the necessary backround who has done the R&D is the greatest asset to building your motor.

You're missing a deal George, $7.50 tolls!

as I have said before an engine builder with the necessary backround who has done the R&D is the greatest asset to building your motor.[/QUOTE]

...and you're the best asset to his bank account

and no it all like you are the greatest waste of my time.

OK Ron, I'll comment!

An engine builder having dyno experience with the particular motor you are building is invaluable. An engine builder having dyno experience with Chevy's will do a Cleveland owner no good.

CHI 3V heads come in 3 port volumes, for varying needs. Realistically, a 2V head that supports 600 bhp is about all anybody needs! lol......

So many choices! So much power capacity! We need a new heavy duty block!

Doug, in an endurance race, I'd rather have the thumpin' 427, because a high strung motor, making me always row through the gears, will wear me and the car out much quicker than the thumper. The advantage of cubes is that you can make equivalent power, at lower rpm, in a more docile package.

Nothing wrong with liking high rpm, we're all different.

guys, I need to finish up at work & get home. take care! Always enjoy hanging out with everyone. You're all a great bunch!

testy, testy...it's know it all, not no it all

CHI 3V heads on my 400:

hey george. is the parker intake from mustangs unlimited for the cleveland. do you have the link to that page?

I dunno, call me stupid if you want, but from what I have heard is that the stock 4V heads could flow way more air than what the engine was capable of using anyway. So unless I had the headers, exaust, intake, cam and all the other goodies to take advantage of it, heads would be the last item to look at. Not true with other lesser engines, but the cleveland 4V had pretty darn good heads straight from the factory. Now if you want to save weight, yeah a whole differant story, but shouldn't you ditch the air conditioning and heater core first?? YOu can loose more weight from that right away. And race cars don't need carpets, or full dashes or comfy seats. Anything that doesn't help it go faster should come off. What's taht?? You are not going to race it?? Then what you worried about getting max performance then?? Just drive it around. Enjoy it for what it is. Yeah you can make your Pantera a full house racer. But you can do that to about any car. A really smart guy told me on these forums once, don't try and make the car something it wasn't meant to be and you will be happy. It has changed the way I look at the car. Race car on the street can be cool, but it can also be a pain in the ass. That is why I wrote that article I did. To me, the Pantera is a very special grand touring car. It does that very well. Economical? Not so well. Ariving in style? Excellent.

Engines are a work in progress; unless you park it in a museum. You can run the same thing and fix the same thing if you are happy with everything as is but few of us here came here for that. If we were happy with as is we would be happy with a 100hp v6 Delorean.

Some one close to me has 3 460's. Each with different parts all cycling through the same car. He put 30K on a stroker with no measurable wear anyhere. He is now venturing into higher rpm's and more Hp. He is testing lifters in one engine, testing heads, comprsssion ratios, cams, etc. He is flipping 3 engines through the car to find the combination and durability he wants. The rpm is killing his durability and he is finding ways around them and the whole thing is a...Work in progress....He wouldn't have it any other way.

The heads and intake on my 434 are probably more then the cam needs. Just the same this combo gives easy power at low rpm. The power is stretched over a wide rpm band. It is ready to go at 2500rpm and it is still going strong at 5000rpm vs an rpm engine that strugles until you get the rpm's up, then you need a gear change.

The lower rpm will help durability issues from one end to the other...at least that's my theory...and I am not just preaching that theory, I am $$ that theory. I also think the advantage of more reliability in a Pantera is important in that the valves and lifters are a PITA to get to. Where as a lifter change on the Cobra was an easy afternoon task.

My philosophy with this engine is low rpm=durability and wide powerbands. Having more HP doesn't mean you have more power. Often more HP means a more narrow rpm band. If you can use the HP longer, even if less it can be equal or better then higher HP at a shorter rpm randge.

To each his own though. People get in this hobby because they do what they love. If they like the high rev's no one needs to explain it. If it's what you love...It IS!

I can certainly understand the enjoyment of doing that Gary. If I had unlimited bucks it would be the first thing I would do. I would quite my job, I would get a Cleveland block made out of titanium, reinforced where I want it, no cam journals, have cylinder sleves made from inconel 601. Then I would get pistones rods and crank all made of titanium. I would have heads cast right on the block. Valves would be inconel. I would have variable cam actuation, needle bearing mains and rods. Direct port fuel injection, variable boost turbos, and no ignition system, this baby will fire from detonation. The starter is also the generator, I mean a whole long list of just things for the engine, not to mention a full carbon fiber body, half shafts, heck I will even try and get the disc brakes off an F-18 Hornet. I have a very rich fantasy life. But I also have champain tastes on a beer budget. BUt if I ever find myself faced with being a billionaire, you will no where I am. I will be in my new twenty seven stall garage.

Detom, if you ever find youself in the unworthy position of being a billionaire, let me know. I will come fly your plane and help turn a wrench!

Gary

But Gary, we shouldn't fly the plane because the brakes will be on my Pantera. No we will by another plane and putter around with it too. If you think my ideas for a car are wild, you should hear about my ideas for aircraft. Only I would need to be a trillionaire for that.

My props reverse, I don't use my brakes much and really can get by without them all together!

Gary

You already have a plane??? Cool. We can tinker with that too. Don't forget George will be there with us too. Getting mad at us for blowing up all those engines he so carfully put together. It will be a fun time.

Actually, I fly it for some one and he may not like me taking it with me but we can come up with another one!

Heck if you like that one we will buy it for you. I always wanted to get an old B-58 Hustler and update it a little. I think that would be a lot of fun.

Well, After all is said and done. I think iwil save my money and just pull my heads and take them to the local machine shop and have stainless valves installed for under 400$

LPB, after yopu get it fixed can you slowely gather up parts for a 2nd engine; just do a swap in the future? That is kind of my plan. Have one ready on the side for a swap.

> The 3V port is 2V in size, but it is raised approx. 3/8" so that the roof
> of the port is the same height as the roof of a 4V port. If it were raised
> another 3/8", it would approximate the location of the ports in the C302 Ford
> Motorsport heads.

A bit of a nit but the 3V port is larger than a 2V. It's also larger than
an (unported) C302 port (and of considerably different shape). It's close
to the size of a ported 2V outline of the turkey pan. The unported 3V is
approximately the same size as my ported C302B (218 vs 217 cc's). I've got
a CHI 3V intake here. I should take some pictures with gasket overlays to
show the differences.

> John Kaase won the 2004 Engine Masters competition with CHI 3V heads.

Remember that a number of heads were excluded from the competition.
A3's, C302B's, Yates, Brodix BF300's and Blue Thunder to name a few.

> Realistically, a 2V head that supports 600 bhp is about all anybody needs!

Saying that an AFD 2V head can support over 600 HP out-of-the-box is
somewhat misleading. What you really care about is how will a given head
work on your engine relative to other cylinder heads. You can have 4 or 5
different heads all of which can support 600 HP but on a given engine
there can be 150 HP between the best and the worst. When I was designing
my engine, I ran a series of detailed simulations using Dynomation for
2V, 4V, CHI 3V, A3, C302, C302B, and Brodix BF300 heads. Except for the
CHI 3V all the head flow and dimensional data were from heads that I or
someone I know had personally flow tested. For the CHI 3V, I had to rely
on CHI provided data which I've not independently verified. Except for
the 2V heads, all of these heads are capable of supporting over 600 HP on
the right engine. That includes the stock 4V heads. I know of a dyno
verified stock displacement 351C with unported (NHRA legal valve job only)
open chamber 4V heads that made 630+ HP.

Though both could support 600 HP, on my particular engine, the difference
between the 4V heads and the C302B was huge. Over 100 HP difference at the
peak and the C302B's were better across the RPM range. The C302B's, C302,
and A3 heads were all fairly close with the Brodix and CHI 3V around 40 HP
less at peak. While the C302B's were ported they were near identical in
port volume to the CHI 3V heads (217 vs 218 cc's). By looking at the claimed
flow numbers for the AFD, CHI and Edelbrock 2V heads, I can see they will
all make less power than the CHI 3V's.

I guess this is a long-winded way saying that I disagree with your statement
that "a 2V head that supports 600 bhp is about all anybody needs". If I can
60 or 70 HP through heads alone, it's worth it to me. Increasing RPM and cam
timing come at a durability cost but better airflow does not.

On a milder engine the gap between the heads will close and may well be
influenced by what headers and intake are available. For instance, a
CHI 3V head coupled with Scott Parker's intake may not make any more
power than a 4V head and a Blue Thunder intake if the better intake of
one combination is enough to offset the better heads of another.

The CHI 3V's are excellent heads but in terms of all out power production
the raised exhaust port heads have an advantage. I believe both AFD and
CHI are working on race heads with raised exhaust ports to address this.

> the alloy 2V heads from CHI & AFD, which sell for around $1800 to your door
> in the US

Have you verified this is true, Goerge? I tried following up on the rumor
that CHI was going to price match the Edelbrock 2V head price but found it
wasn't true. Assembled and delivered cost was still several hundered dollars
more than the Edelbrocks from the vendors I contacted. Anyone know if this
has changed or what AFD's current pricing is?

Dan Jones