Has anyone tracked down a seal kit for these new cylinders? IF the castings are still good, a kit with modern seal materials could go a long way????
Steve
@Rob Fridenberg posted:Looks good. Please report back if the fluid starts getting dark again and if (when?) the reservoir leaks. I plan on changing mine out (and the leaky slave) soon.
I will report back in a couple of months with the status of the clutch master.
Funny , I have same issue, I have what I think is a billet Master, the fluid is turning black, I flushed it a few times and now is black again, my clutch pedal goes soft if I push it to quick. Just ordered a new Clutch master and slave from PI Motorsport, hope they dont have same issue. I will strip the old clutch master and take pics when the new item turns up.
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Steve - any updates? How does your fluid look?
I just received/installed another clutch master (my 3rd in a year), and flushed the line. The current part does look better (normal) for the bottle to body joint and is still dry after a month!!!! However, the fluid is turning dark after less than 100 miles. I could see hints of darkening after the first 20 miles of driving.
Some say it does not matter, but to me it is a sign of something happening with the seals??!! I'll drive mine a bit more and empty/refill the bottle and see if it continues to pollute the fluid.
Rob, all,
OK, I don't recall what my clutch fluid looked like 4 months ago....not even sure that I checked! SOOOO I checked today, and my fluid is "dark brown" but not black. No goobers or floaty bits, just maple syrup!
We have a fairly humid environment here, and I wanna say that this is "normal" absorption of water???? I have a cast iron master clutch cyl also, which could be contributing. Now, I haven't flushed this since I worked on all of this some 2-3-4??? years ago....bad me...I know......barely drove the dang car..... vehicular abuse...!!!!
I will be suctioning this brown out, and replacing with new Castrol DOT4 before trip to Reno! Maybe flush out the cylinder if I get cooperation...... Will also check fluid in brake M/C which I DID flush completely when all 4 corners received new seals (stuck pistons!!!) and the M/C got a tear down only to find nothing amiss there!
I hope this helps.....!
Steve
My new clutch master failed. The fluid seemed to be turning black so I flushed it a couple of times. Then I took it on a fairly big outing to Full Throttle Panteras open house. The fluid was perfectly clear when I started the trip. About halfway through the trip during some spirited driving the clutch master begin to fail. When I held the clutch down, it would gradually release itself. I was able to complete the trip and make it back home but maneuvering in parking lots was very difficult.
After arriving at Full Throttle, I inspected the fluid and it was very black. The next week I removed the failed master and showed it to Wilkinson and explain what happened. He asked which brake fluid I used and I said it was DOT3. He said it has to be DOT4 and set me up with a new one. I have that in the car now. So far so good, but time will tell.
DOT 3 and 4 are "supposedly" the same other than 4 having a higher boiling point and being less hygroscopic. But some info suggests that older systems do not "like" 4 and you should use 3 only. I have used 4 in my car for many years now. The brake fluid tends to "yellow" with time - been 3 years now since I last changed/bled it. The clutch fluid seems to stay clearer and not yellow as much (why I have no idea) but occasionally I do get black stuff (not pieces but just a black slime). My clutch master is probably 20 years old and my slave is a CNC I bought from Dennis Q. at that time. The clutch works fine so I have just sucked the black fluid from the reservoir and refilled it and then bled the system.
My vendor said I should be using DOT3. This is really frustrating - why can't someone make a decent master that fits these cars??? I used DOT4 on my last master (replacement #2) - fluid turned dark on that one too.
Once you have been in the Pantera community for a number of years, it becomes obvious to just about everyone that the advice from our vendors is not something that can be taken as absolute truth or always correct.
sadly, most of them will argue till they are blue in the face trying to convince you that you are wrong.
been there and done that, more times than I should have
Larry
Larry - LOL - thanks - I needed that chuckle! I have been at it for 1.5 years so I'm still a rookie!
The funny thing is, it is not like we are having a problem with a precise part like a fuel injector. These are simple parts! I am also on my 2nd replacement slave cylinder - that one was leaking after a few hundred miles.
Yet, the Corvette brake master cylinder in my car, which probably saw 100 miles of use in the past 10 years of prior ownership, hasn't polluted the new fluid (DOT 4) for the 600 miles that I have put on the car.
I am convinced it is garbage seals and/or nasty rough bores that are causing this. I can't see DOT 3 or 4 having an effect, ever, or even in a matter of weeks??
I agree with you Rob. It is a bull shit argument that DOT 3 / 4 is causing it. Some vendor is, as my wife says, "deflecting". This is right up there with the threads I see on MSD electronic boxes failing right out of the box. Cheaply made junk parts.
As for the failure of MSD boxes, just Google the phrase “counterfeit MSD ignition” and you will understand why MSD boxes have been getting bad reports
Larry
I just heard a good one for MSD = My Spark Disappeared
But the people I have seen on threads had REAL ones purchased from reputable vendors unless Summit is somehow now buying fake crap
My plan is to work through this problem with Wilkinson. If the seals are faulty I think he will resolve it. Not many people are making new parts for Panteras and I don’t think it is an easy endeavor.
Is it possible that the hardline is corroding? causing the black colour? So many people with same issue and a few different types of Master cylinders. I have a new Master to swap in but I dont think it will fix issue.
Steve B - please keep us informed with any outcome from Wilkinson. I could live with dark fluid if there were no other impacts, but my fear all along has been the failure mode that you experienced.
I am getting really fast at changing out these masters!!
refresh my memory - someone posted about the Ferrari 308 brake master as a replacement for the P. Does anyone know about the clutch master? http://superformance.co.uk/
Albanygt40 - my opinion - I think the masters carried by all of the Pantera vendors are coming from the same supplier (boxes look like they are from China??)?? Given the crazy low volume of this vehicle, I can't imagine that multiple suppliers are running this part with the hope of making any money.
FWIW - someone at the supplier finally mastered (copied) the technical challenge of attaching a plastic bottle to a fitting that doesn't leak. So at least there has been some improvement!
More like one vendor is selling to all the other vendors.....
The seal used in the stock type Pantera clutch master cylinder is a type of o-ring, not a "cup". As such, the o-ring can only tolerate a very small interference fit to the master cylinder bore, something like 0.002". Rebuilding the master cylinder by honing the bore and replacing the seal usually results in an early failure because the honing increases the cylinder's bore which reduces the interference fit with the o-ring.
The fluid turning black is caused by extremely small amounts of material being removed from the o-ring during normal cycling of the clutch master cylinder's piston.
John