Black stuff in clutch master reservoir

Where did you get the new master cylinder? There were some reproduced masters that had the wrong material in the seals and the brake fluid was eating them up.

The master cylinder is not from a Pantera vendor.  Notice the square reservoir.  It is by Centric and is for an Alfa, but it also works on Panteras.  I think there are just a couple of o-rings in the clutch master.  In the morning I will check around the pedals for fluid.

I know that some of the replica Pantera clutch masters leaked at the reservoir joint.  That is why I have this one from Centric.  I also recall that the current batch of Pantera replica clutch masters have an improved grommet and no longer leak at the reservoir joint.

It is unlikely anything is migrating back from the flex line (usually PTFE lined anyway) or throwout bearing, I'd check the master seals.

Clutch master fluid turns black when the master seals are going bad. I bought a new master one year ago, reservoir has leaked since day one and after 500 miles of driving my fluid is turning black. I will be requesting another exchange. Fwiw, clutch slave is also leaking after 500 miles. Not sure who is making these garbage replacement parts. Frustrating doing things over and over.

Steve:  I have occasionally seen the same black residue in mine and my master was replaced over 15 years ago.  No leaks, just this fine black Sxxx.  I have kept an eye on it but believe it is the seals.

@Rob Fridenberg posted:

Clutch master fluid turns black when the master seals are going bad. I bought a new master one year ago, reservoir has leaked since day one and after 500 miles of driving my fluid is turning black. I will be requesting another exchange. Fwiw, clutch slave is also leaking after 500 miles. Not sure who is making these garbage replacement parts. Frustrating doing things over and over.

A year ago my other Pantera got the clutch master that leaks at the reservoir.  When I bought it I already knew it would probably leak.  I fixed it by swapping reservoirs with an old clutch master.  No more leak and it looks fine.  It does not release black residue into the fluid at this time.  The photo below shows how it looks in the car with the old non-leaking reservoir in place.

Garbage o-rings and/or bad bore finish grinding on the rings. Once the fluid is black I assume the o-ring sealing and resulting master performance goes downhill. Any vendors supplying decent parts these days??? I’m on my third master.

Like I said, my "black stuff" appeared in a master I bought probably 15 years ago. It was a direct replacement made in Italy.  Not some cheap knockoff.  I bleed it yearly and is still going strong.  Regardless of the black stuff.  

My hunch is that all of the vendors get their replica clutch master cylinders from Wilkinson.  He said his new batch does not leak at the reservoir.  There was not any mention about the seals and bore.  As I said above, the seals/bore from his prior batch are working correctly in my case although it has only been a year and usage has been light.

I will be replacing the master with the black stuff that is pictured at the top of this thread with one of his new ones in about a week and will update this thread with the outcome.

I have the new clutch master cylinder in hand and can see that the leaky reservoir issue has been resolved.  The reservoir now feels like it is solidly attached and is similar to the factory units that shipped with our cars.  I will be installing it in the next several days.  Hopefully it fixes the problem with black stuff in the fluid for a long time.

Please keep us updated! Since these are a pain to install, I bench test the leak issue for a week to see if they stay dry. My experience from last March was that they all leaked. And, 2 of 3 vendors said they never leak!

I hope you're all using Girling recommended Castrol LMA DOT4 fluid???

If not, OLD DOT3 could be simply collecting moisture and what you're seeing is metal oxide?   Newest DOT3 fluids may likely be synthetic now.

The Castrol LMA  ("low moisture absorbing" ) will tend to be darker in color with time, but we're talking a long time.... has always been synthetic near as I can tell, for some 25 years, as long as I have been working on my GOose.....one of the first jobs I had to do because ALL of the cylinders were absolute useless crap from previous owners using DOT3!

You're supposed to flush your brake/clutch fluids out every once it a while too...........????   Suction old out of the reservoirs, fill, then flush out the lines and calipers etc via bleeders....refill as needed.......

Cheers!
Steve

I am getting ready to install the new clutch master.  This should be fairly straight forward.  Under the dash I just need to pull pin and remove the two M8 bolts.  I will need to pull driver's seat before hand as well.

good luck Steve.  I remember doing this and left the seat in.  Big mistake.

If you are replacing like with like and can retain the same push rod, the job may become much easier.

John Buckman and I swapped out my all-aluminum CNC clutch master with its identical SS-lined cylinder replacement in the parking lot of Los Laureles lodge some years ago during Monterey car week.

did everything from the front trunk, did not remove the driver’s seat, did not bleed the system afterwards. Absolutely no issues at all.

and yes, we were surprised it was that easy and that successful  

you never know until you try

YMMV

Larry

From this post, it looks like I was sold a clutch master cylinder with seals that break down and fail. I installed it a couple of months ago and the fluid started to turn dark in about a week without even driving the car. I am going to take the master cylinder that was removed from the car and send it to a place in New York that can rebuild it with quality parts.

The new clutch master cylinder is installed, working correctly, and not leaking.  The only issue I had with it was the rubber dust boot was a tight fit going into the opening in the pedal box.  I trimmed the boot a little and got it to go into place.

nice job Steve

Looks good. Please report back if the fluid starts getting dark again and if (when?) the reservoir leaks. I plan on changing mine out (and the leaky slave) soon.

Has anyone tracked down a seal kit for these new cylinders?   IF the castings are still good, a kit with modern seal materials could go a long way????

Steve

@Rob Fridenberg posted:

Looks good. Please report back if the fluid starts getting dark again and if (when?) the reservoir leaks. I plan on changing mine out (and the leaky slave) soon.

I will report back in a couple of months with the status of the clutch master.

Funny , I have same issue, I have what I think is a billet Master, the fluid is turning black, I flushed it a few times and now is black again, my clutch pedal goes soft if I push it to quick. Just ordered a new Clutch master and slave from PI Motorsport, hope they dont have same issue. I will strip the old clutch master and take pics when the new item turns up.

Steve - any updates? How does your fluid look?

I just received/installed another clutch master (my 3rd in a year), and flushed the line. The current part does look better (normal) for the bottle to body joint and is still dry after a month!!!! However, the fluid is turning dark after less than 100 miles. I could see hints of darkening after the first 20 miles of driving.

Some say it does not matter, but to me it is a sign of something happening with the seals??!!  I'll drive mine a bit more and empty/refill the bottle and see if it continues to pollute the fluid.

Rob, all,

OK, I don't recall what my clutch fluid looked like 4 months ago....not even sure that I checked!   SOOOO I checked today, and my fluid is "dark brown" but not black.  No goobers or floaty bits, just maple syrup!

We have a fairly humid environment here, and I wanna say that this is "normal" absorption of water????  I have a cast iron master clutch cyl also, which could be contributing.  Now, I haven't flushed this since I worked on all of this some 2-3-4??? years ago....bad me...I know......barely drove the dang car..... vehicular abuse...!!!!

I will be suctioning this brown out, and replacing with new Castrol DOT4 before trip to Reno!  Maybe flush out the cylinder if I get cooperation......    Will also check fluid in brake M/C which I DID flush completely when all 4 corners received new seals (stuck pistons!!!)  and the M/C got a tear down only to find nothing amiss there!

I hope this helps.....!
Steve

My new clutch master failed. The fluid seemed to be turning black so I flushed it a couple of times. Then I took it on a fairly big outing to Full Throttle Panteras open house. The fluid was perfectly clear when I started the trip. About halfway through the trip during some spirited driving the clutch master begin to fail.  When I held the clutch down, it would gradually release itself.  I was able to complete the trip and make it back home but maneuvering in parking lots was very difficult.

After arriving at Full Throttle, I inspected the fluid and it was very black. The next week I removed the failed master and showed it to Wilkinson and explain what happened. He asked which brake fluid I used and I said it was DOT3. He said it has to be DOT4 and set me up with a new one. I have that in the car now. So far so good, but time will tell.

DOT 3 and 4 are "supposedly" the same other than 4 having a higher boiling point and being less hygroscopic.  But some info suggests that older systems do not "like" 4 and you should use 3 only.  I have used 4 in my car for many years now.  The brake fluid tends to "yellow" with time - been 3 years now since I last changed/bled it.  The clutch fluid seems to stay clearer and not yellow as much (why I have no idea) but occasionally I do get black stuff (not pieces but just a black slime).  My clutch master is probably 20 years old and my slave is a CNC I bought from Dennis Q. at that time.  The clutch works fine so I have just sucked the black fluid from the reservoir and refilled it and then bled the system.  

My vendor said I should be using DOT3. This is really frustrating - why can't someone make a decent master that fits these cars??? I used DOT4 on my last master (replacement #2) - fluid turned dark on that one too.

Once you have been in the Pantera community for a number of years, it becomes obvious to just about everyone that the advice from our vendors is not something that can be taken as absolute truth or always correct.

sadly, most of them will argue till they are blue in the face trying to convince you that you are wrong.

been there and done that, more times than I should have

Larry

Larry - LOL - thanks - I needed that chuckle! I have been at it for 1.5 years so I'm still a rookie!

The funny thing is, it is not like we are having a problem with a precise part like a fuel injector. These are simple parts! I am also on my 2nd replacement slave cylinder - that one was leaking after a few hundred miles.

Yet, the Corvette brake master cylinder in my car, which probably saw 100 miles of use in the past 10 years of prior ownership, hasn't polluted the new fluid (DOT 4) for the 600 miles that I have put on the car.

I am convinced it is garbage seals and/or nasty rough bores that are causing this. I can't see DOT 3 or 4 having an effect, ever, or even in a matter of weeks??

I agree with you Rob.  It is a bull shit argument that DOT 3 / 4 is causing it.  Some vendor is, as my wife says, "deflecting".  This is right up there with the threads I see on MSD electronic boxes failing right out of the box.  Cheaply made junk parts.

As for the failure of MSD boxes, just Google the phrase “counterfeit MSD ignition” and you will understand why MSD boxes have been getting bad reports

Larry

I just heard a good one for MSD = My Spark Disappeared

But the people I have seen on threads had REAL ones purchased from reputable vendors unless Summit is somehow now buying fake crap

My plan is to work through this problem with Wilkinson. If the seals are faulty I think he will resolve it. Not many people are making new parts for Panteras and I don’t think it is an easy endeavor.

Is it possible that the hardline is corroding? causing the black colour? So many people with same issue and a few different types of Master cylinders. I have a new Master to swap in but I dont think it will fix issue.

Steve B - please keep us informed with any outcome from Wilkinson. I could live with dark fluid if there were no other impacts, but my fear all along has been the failure mode that you experienced.

I am getting really fast at changing out these masters!!

refresh my memory - someone posted about the Ferrari 308 brake master as a replacement for the P.  Does anyone know about the clutch master?  http://superformance.co.uk/

Albanygt40 - my opinion - I think the masters carried by all of the Pantera vendors are coming from the same supplier (boxes look like they are from China??)?? Given the crazy low volume of this vehicle, I can't imagine that multiple suppliers are running this part with the hope of making any money.

FWIW - someone at the supplier finally mastered (copied) the technical challenge of attaching a plastic bottle to a fitting that doesn't leak. So at least there has been some improvement!

More like one vendor is selling to all the other vendors.....

The seal used in the stock type Pantera clutch master cylinder is a type of o-ring, not a "cup".  As such, the o-ring can only tolerate a very small interference fit to the master cylinder bore, something like 0.002".  Rebuilding the master cylinder by honing the bore and replacing the seal usually results in an early failure because the honing increases the cylinder's bore which reduces the interference fit with the o-ring.  

The fluid turning black is caused by extremely small amounts of material being removed from the o-ring  during normal cycling of the clutch master cylinder's piston.

John

Thanks John.  Hope you are well!  Lee

Here is an interesting find:  Alfa part no.  Steve, does this look like the multiple units you have tried?  

https://www.okp.de/xtc2/105-11...-105-115::26343.html

Yes it is similar. Mine had a square reservoir but the body is the same. It is the one at the beginning of this posting that made the fluid black.  The one I got was inexpensive, maybe $50.

If you search online, and I just did a quick search on the Alfa forum, there are similar debates.  ATE makes a unit that would work for the Pantera.  I don't need one but am wondering if somebody is making a cheap knockoff like most things as opposed to getting a quality unit.  Steve, How much was your unit?

Mine was cheap. Maybe $50. The body of mine looks identical to the one in your link with the round reservoir for 299 euro.

Does it say ATE on it.  The Alfa guys are using a supposedly quality unit made by ATE

I won’t be back at the house for a  week. Can check then.

@stevebuchanan posted:

My new clutch master failed. The fluid seemed to be turning black so I flushed it a couple of times. Then I took it on a fairly big outing to Full Throttle Panteras open house. The fluid was perfectly clear when I started the trip. About halfway through the trip during some spirited driving the clutch master begin to fail.  When I held the clutch down, it would gradually release itself.  I was able to complete the trip and make it back home but maneuvering in parking lots was very difficult.

After arriving at Full Throttle, I inspected the fluid and it was very black. The next week I removed the failed master and showed it to Wilkinson and explain what happened. He asked which brake fluid I used and I said it was DOT3. He said it has to be DOT4 and set me up with a new one. I have that in the car now. So far so good, but time will tell.

I just installed a new clutch master cylinder and within a few days, the fluid began to turn dark and there is black grit in the fluid. I suspect that this could be caused by the brake fluid attacking the rubber seals. I am holding my breath and waiting for this master cylinder to fail. I have also limited my trips with the Pantera because I don't need a clutch master cylinder failure several hundred miles from home. I found a company in New York that can rebuild the original master cylinder and use modern seals. I am going to be shipping off my old master cylinder to them.

JFFR,

Any chance you can pop your old unit apart, lay it out and take some pictures???

I don't have any old ones to look at....!   See what the story is........

I can't imagine that these would need much more attention than perhaps a new seal/o-ring of brake fluid compatibility, and a light polish to the bore........

Cheers!
Steve

Here are some pics of my old ATE master that I replaced with the new garbage.

Perhaps rebuilding this is an option - any info on rebuild kits??

Well, that certainly looks a little more involved than a single o-ring.....but like everything I have encountered with the Goose......"your mileage may vary!"    I found 3-4 different slave seals used over time in the same cylinder.

OK!    So further, what are the markings on the umbrella seal and in the other rubber cup seal???  If known, these could be potentially sourced......

What needs to be known, is stuff like bore diameter, shaft diameter (ID of seal)....

Steve (the other one....)

I would buy a new ATE unit from one of the Alfa vendors.  We need to know what ATE part number is needed as the Alfa's used various units.   I did read where an ATE rebuild kit is available as well.  Several reputable Alfa vendors stock the ATE as well as a different manufacturer here in the US.

@mangusta posted:

I can't imagine that these would need much more attention than perhaps a new seal/o-ring of brake fluid compatibility, and a light polish to the bore........

Cheers!
Steve

Or, and here is a radical idea for the Pantera community, our vendors could stop reproducing parts with 85% correctness, leaving 15% substandard and leading to discussions such as this.

For over 20 years, I have heard the mantra of we must support and respect our vendors.

Sadly, with a continuing series of substandard reproduction parts, I think what really should be happening is our vendors should start respecting us by providing reproduction parts that are accurate and functional, instead of “close, but no prize” failures.

Larry

I have read this thread all the way through as I picked up a clutch slave cylinder and master cylinder a few days ago from PIM that is scheduled to be installed this week.  After reading how most of the new ones leak almost from the "getgo,"  I'm a bit nervous.  I had a new clutch put in two weeks ago, and my mechanic suggested that I replace the slave and master cylinder as well.  I will now monitor them both regularly to avoid any issues.  By the way, I replaced my clutch with a unit from Southland Clutch in San Diego.  I was in San Diego two weekends ago and had been recommended to give them a call.  Wonderful, knowledgeable people to deal with and extremely reasonably priced.  So far, so good.

I live in SD and am familiar with Southland.  Curious can you provide details of what clutch work they did for you.  OBTW their website says they do clutch master cylinders as well?  Did you ask them?  thanks for the feedback on them.

tberg,

Now why would someone want to replace a perfectly good master and slave cylinder just because you replace the clutch disc and pressure plate??????

That's the goofiest things I've heard in a few days..... 

What you COULD do, it take them apart and clean the cylinders out of any crud and crap...and actually INSPECT them for wear!   No wear, no replace!

ALWAYS use brake assembly snot/lube when putting these together for the first time or for any time for that matter if you take them apart.

I wouldn't risk replacing working parts with parts prone to failure according to this post!!!!

Gotta remember when hotrodding......induce only one failure point at at time!!!  It keeps the anxiety level lower......when shite does hit the fan!!!!!

Steve  (Used to drive a '58 that my dad had when I was a sr in HS!   283-3spd, total farmer car....   Car drove like a truck!   Cuz that is where Chevy borrowed the front suspension from!  His buddy's dad had a dealership and always gave him crap about that point!)

There's Bush Power Brakes in San Diego (National City).

John

panterapatt,

Call Southland Clutch in National City and ask for Kim.  He is quite familiar with Pantera clutches and can give you all of the information.  I did ask him about the clutch master cylinder and the slave, and he told me they do not carry them.  When I picked up the clutch on a Friday afternoon,  he asked me about which size bearing pack my clutch had to which I had no answer since I didn't know.  So I asked him to just give me both, and to charge me the little bit extra for it.  The clutch was $285.00.  With the bearing packs and tax, my bill was $340. and some change.  The owner of the company came out to talk to me and my wife, very friendly and quite knowledgeable.  It was an altogether, very pleasant transaction and the clutch is in and functioning.  Kim will tell you about how much torque and horsepower their clutch will handle.  (I believe it was around 650 ft. lbs for torque and even more horsepower.  My car is around 500/500 if I recall.  Kim races cars as well and has a 1000+ horsepower car with one of their clutches, and he'll be able to give you all of the specifications.  I just picked it up two weeks ago, so if you remind him that Ted picked up a clutch a couple of weeks ago for a Pantera, I'm sure he will know exactly what I got.

Thanks

I am thrilled to report that the new/improved bottle to fitting joint leaks!! So - not only is the fluid turning dark from the o-rings dissolving, the bottle still leaks. Really? Who is making this garbage???

Getting ready to request a 4th replacement. What is that saying about the definition of insanity...... unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any alternatives.

Just had installed replacement clutch master cylinder and slave yesterday, purchased from PIM.  I sure hope I don't experience the same problems you've had.  I've had that kind of experience with water pumps on my XKR, on my 5th one.  Very frustrating.

If it were me, I would stop buying the same MC from a certain vendor and call one of the Alfa specialists above and buy from them.  The ATE cylinders seem to have a drop in replacement.  

If someone has a MC accessible and is willing to make the measurements, send them to me and I will gladly call some of the Alfa suppliers to investigate a reliable source for this issue.  I think basic overall dimensions, the bore size, and the length of the shaft and clevis would be helpful.

Panterapatt - thank you, thank you, thank you for taking this on! The clutch slave cylinders would be next as they are garbage as well. My Pantera had an old ATE cylinder on it (see post above) - I'll see what dimensions I can pull from that one for comparison.

Mr. Fiat sell one for Alfas that looks like my ATE (and the OEM), I may have some dimensions on that when I investigated it with them a year or so ago.

Sounds good.  ATE and Benditalia are the two makes.  

Both of the below options look to be usable. They both have the correct 19.0mm or 3/4" bore. The first is an exact match and the second is only different in the shape and attachment of the reservoir.

Alfa Romeo GTV-6 - 1981-1985 Centric part# 136.02101 (Discontinued) (Exact Match)

Alfa Romeo Alfetta - 1975-1977 Centric part# 136.02100 (Reservoir is different)

What is the story on the centric brand? Where is it made?

I don't know who Centric is but the cylinder is an ATE 386066

AW ITALIAN AUTO PARTS Has the ATE brand in stock for $189.00.

I just spoke with one of the Alfa parts suppliers.  He said ATE is German - good quality.  They sell a brand called "Interbrake" which is Italian.  He said they rarely have one of these returned due to leakage.  Still working on part numbers for both but the one above "looks" correct.  From the excel parts sheet, and the one on my car is a Benditialia 1409345.  That is the original OEM piece.  Bore measured 0.7465 inches (18.96 mm) and had a max stroke 1.25 inches (31.74 mm)

The original Clutch hard line is copper, and copper can turn "Black".  Could it be coming from the hardline?  I don't know if Steve is running an original clutch line or not.  Just throwing this out there for a source of the black substance in the brake fluid. Just a thought.

My car #2605, does not have a copper line. My latest master turned the fluid dark after 100 miles and also has black bits in it. The results are the SAME for DOT3 or DOT4 fluid!

Here is what I believe to be replacements for both the clutch master and slave.  Manufacturers are ATE (German) and Interbrake (Italian).  We need dimensions from an original to dial this in but the dimensions I can get off the web and previous cross references other Pantera owners have done align to these Alfa Romeo parts:

Clutch Master ATE: https://web.tecalliance.net/at...:60730497;groups:234

Clutch Slave ATE: https://web.tecalliance.net/at...berType:0;groups:620

Clutch Master Interbrake:  https://centerlinealfa.com/cat...-master-cylinder-115

Reservoir (is ATE):  https://centerlinealfa.com/cat...clutch-reservoir-115

or

https://www.awitalian.com/prod...inder-60730497.html/

Clutch Slave Interbrake:  https://centerlinealfa.com/cat...ave-cylinder-115-119

Unfortunately the original Benditalia p/n 1409345 seems missing in action.  But I get references back to the Alfa GTV6 as the source which is what the above parts are for.

Hope it helps.  I was told by one of the leading Alfa parts suppliers here in the US that both ATE and Interbrake produce quality parts and they have NO issues with them.  I guess one of you guys need to take the plunge and buy one of these and experiment.  Anything is better than continuing to buy shit that leaks.

One thing I have not been able to confirm is the mounting hole spacing.  I was told the Interbrake unit is about 50mm.

Thanks Panterapatt! I am waiting on next steps from my vendor (who has been very nice about this year long struggle) before I buy the ATE master.

The ATE master that was in my car as received appears to have a 17mm bore. It seemed to function fine on the 20 mile drive home after I bought the car, but it was leaking - this car had probably been driven less than 150 miles in 7+ years, so lots of sitting with old fluid in it.

Found this picture with my parts listing...  not sure if you guys had a good look at the stock one with the P/N.  Hope it's helpful.

Not sure who painted the reservoir...

Rocky - that old part probably still functions better than the new parts!

Rocky - that is an original oem Benditalia. Don’t trash that just yet.  Rob- ATE has rebuild kits but I wouldn’t  waste the calories.  Can one of you make some measurements of the exterior and interior dimensions please.  Bolt spacing, bore, stroke?

Sometimes in fuel, brake and clutch flex lines, carbon extracted from the rubber can stain the fluid after awhile. This is not necessarily an indication of imminent failure, just soaking age.  The black plastic reservoir screw-cap may also fail along with its seal. There's a nice aluminum screw cap sold cheap by Pegasus Racing that fits Girling reservoirs. Mine's been on my aluminum Girling clutch master for many decades. This unit has no plastic reservoir but is cast with the body.

I've read on some Forum that certain iron castings are slightly attacked by some brake/clutch fluids. Their fix came from changing fluids. Some OEM Bendix-Italia (Benditalia) cylinders seem to be made of this stuff. All my cylinders are anodized aluminum, all the internals are stainless steel and all flex lines are teflon lined braided stainless.  I changed all possible o-rings in the car to Viton or teflon. No leaks but  my GM plastic brake reservoir still discolors tannish. I think its the plastic they use.

Has anyone found/tried a Wilwood clutch master that fits the Pantera?

No, but I did install an aluminum Girling clutch master with no separate reservoir, back in 1982. Still working fine but I did have to elongate the mounting holes in the Girling with a file, as they were a bit too wide. I also replaced the black plastic cap when it split at the threads. I used an aluminum cap by Pegasus-Racing.

Note the aluminum Girling with no translucent reservoir solves your problem of seeing "Black Stuff" in the reservoir. Since it was mentioned several times that it is probably either iron oxide, or carbon black commonly used in rubber parts, did you ever check your debris for magnetism? That would narrow it down to essentially one material.

I did - non-magnetic 3d particles at the bottom of the reservoir with the finer black particles remaining in suspension in the fluid. Garbage bore finish, cheap seal materials and improper clearances- pick one!!!!  Time to move away from Pantera vendor parts!

I believe the ATE and ItaliaBrake units I found on the web are direct replacements.  That includes the slave cylinder.  I was hoping someone could provide the measurements for the MC so that I can verify with ATE.  

@Rob Fridenberg posted:

Has anyone found/tried a Wilwood clutch master that fits the Pantera?

I installed a Wilwood Clutch Master Kit from SACC Restorations in 2018. I later ran the excess braided line under the front trunk.

@Rob Fridenberg - I have a brand-new SACC Restoration Wilwood Clutch Master Cylinder if you are interested in trying one.  I had it installed, new used and then upgraded to a dual master cylinder configuration and got another Wilwood Clutch Master Cylinder in that set-up.  SACC modified the mounting holes so it would use the Pantera mounting holes.  PM me if you are interest. Larry

CNC was a firm located in San Diego that supplied Dennis Quella with his aluminum clutch master cylinders.

The OEM center to center clutch master studs are roughly 2 inches, but the standard spacing for the CNC master used by Dennis was 2 1/4”.  Dennis arranged for a batch of them to be made with the necessary OEM spacing, but they were only available through him and not directly sold by CNC. You see a lot of these, or close cousins, on many Panteras.  Shortly before CNC ceased operations I purchased a 3/4” master from them, made with a S&S sleeved bore.

The modification to the mounting holes by SACC is far from a precise, machining operation. I modified my SS master mounting holes very easily with just a good rattail metal file.

In short, just about any aftermarket three-quarter inch bore aluminum master can be easily modified to fit the OEM studs. A cast iron/steel mounting base would be more problematic, however.

And of course, one advantage to a aftermarket replacement is the ability to purchase from an established firm having a respectable track history of being able to deliver quality components……😉

Larry

Great insight Larry.  I bought a CNC slave from Dennis.  Has been perfect.

Appreciate the info on Wilwood masters - I assume the stroke specs are adequate for the Pantera set-up? Any performance issues using a long braided line?

I'm waiting on resolution from the vendor that provided my masters, but going with a Wilwood seems like a safe bet for the reasons that Larry mentioned.

No functional performance issues with the braided line. Once bled, the length of the line doesn't really matter. Although, the original braided line did spring a leak a couple of years ago for whatever reason. Shouldn't have, but it did. Those lines are rated at 3,000 psi. Replaced the line, and no problems since.

Just in case, I like to keep a spare of just about all the potential failure items. That way I can continue to drive throughout the cruise-in season here in lovely Ohio...

As I mentioned, I eventually pulled the hard line under the front trunk and routed the extra length of the braided line through the hole.

Here is the Wilwood MC as shown above from their website.  Bolt spacing is 2.25" which from a rough measurement of mine seems about correct?  Price is $83 bucks.  How could one go wrong on this.

With the link:

https://www.wilwood.com/Master...rod?itemno=260-15098

Also from Amazon.

John

As Larry said above, you will have to elongate the mounting holes a little bit to match OEM bolt pattern.

While previously searching for clutch master info, I ran across where Bosswrench said that “...most aftermarket clutch masters mounting holes are 2.25” center-to-center, and the OEM Pantera clutch master is about 1.85"center-to-center".

Great info on the Wilwood product! I assume the braided line is not part of the kit??

The braided line and all the adapters were part of the original plug-and-play SACC Restoration's kit, but that kit is no longer on the Web site for whatever reason. So, I put this info together for future reference...

Unless I'm misremembering, the A-1 Performance Adapter in the image is associated with the clutch system hardline.

Ron - thanks for putting this together as this may be the best direction for master replacements for those that prefer reliability over originality.

The "original" clutch masters I was buying were blowing seals. At least the Wilwood masters can be rebuilt. Cheap enough that I keep a spare Wilwood clutch master and rebuild kit on hand so my Pantera is not parked and waiting for parts during the cruise-in season. Of course, connecting the thing under the dash is about the worst job on a Pantera and where bodies, heads, hands, and fingers do not belong...

I have to pull the seat for access. Can't contort like that anymore.

Ron - any reliability issues with the wilwood? How long have you been using it? Your spare comments make me nervous! Perhaps it is ptsd from the garbage repro parts??!!