Anyone know which goose this is?
http://saintdonatusbodyandpain...detomasomangusta.php
MH
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I can say that they have called it a "1968". I can say the rear hubs are unusual looking to me. I can say that the grille inside the front lower scoop (below the actual grille) is unfamiliar to me. I am used to seeing no grille mesh in there.
The grille there is correct, the intercrimp was used in 3 places (between the headlights, between the brake lights, and at the front spoiler opening. The lower intake I think I've seen in both diamond cut and (mine, pictured) square cut (at 29" wide).
Much of the suspension in the car here is unfamiliar to me--esp, the front A-arms seem only out of tube-section, and on my 8ma1076 the construction and gusseting is different. One picture suggests that the last time the car was on the road it hit something low, the original left A-arm bent, the wheel broken from the inside out...
The front brakes may be replacement as well (at least, I don't know if Girling had the giant screwdriver slot (!) But otherwise, yes, its a first generation car at least (dash is switches down). Someone spent a lot of time on this car before (with lightening holes in the rear suspension bridge?)
Girling rear calipers on Mangusta were manufactured with 2 hole cover. Other applications had the coin slot cover. I believe the rear upright has a rear brake rotor hat in it (rotor per se is not there). A lot of rust on that car.
Denis, what do you know about changes on the A-arms? I see what you mean, here is a picture of an upright in Ebay Spain, vs. the 17/3 12/3 cast iron pieces on '1076, vs. the aluminum 2-piston pieces used front and rear on '1046. It seems the answer on a Goose is "all the above..."
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/27194/lot/22/
Ps, another one to add to Provamo---8ma0994, sold in May. Pretty striking...Lee
I’ll let Steve chime in. I know he’s said later cars had reinforced lowers but that is all I can recall.
Those hub carriers look like mine but the surfaces look crudely done. I wonder if it is a copy?
EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW THAT:
>THE DRIVE AXLES ARE LIFT-A-LOFT PARTS. probably also used by other manufacturers of heavy equipment. Much lower in cost i am sure than from suppliers.
I decided to call the body shop and ask for the VIN, worst they can say is "No" right? Turns out the goose belongs to the shop's owner Greg Kalmes and the car is 8MA584. Greg and I spoke for close to half an hour, nice guy. He's a member on here, just hasn't been very active. Hopefully he'll check in and we can help reinvigorate his project. He's got a way to go and knows it, but he owns an auto shop, so as we say in Texas "God willing and the creek don't rise" he'll get her back on the road some day.
MH
Did anyone else notice the roof? Greg is trying to find evidence to this being a full factory sunroof. He says it looks very nicely done and appears to be original to the car, but hasn't been able to find any records of such an option on the production models.
The sunroof is 8MA766 appears to be a two piece unit
MH
My Mangusta is 8MA584 and is listed in the DeTomaso registry. I have repaired the nose section and the tail section and will be starting on the installation of the new rocker panels and floors soon. Here are a couple of pictures of the inside of the removable sunroof as well as some of the work that's been done so far.
Here is a picture of the outside of the sunroof.
Greg, we've been watching the car That sunroof is unique. the prototype Goose had a glass roof, I don't know if it was removable. Is there any provision around the sunroof for a water drain? The brown car was a birthday present from Dean Martin to Ricci, but is listed on Provamo as a modification by Fantuzzi. If anybody possibly has pictures of the latching mechanism on that car's Targa roof that look the same, great...but otherwise, you may just decide if you like an open top (!) At least, its unlikely to find factory information on the car for the sunroof, and if your car really preceded the Martin car proving an relevance to the factory may be tough...Lee
More pictures of the restoration work on my Mangusta (8MA584) posted today on the DeTomaso Registry.
Greg,
I am just curious. What are you doing about the steel/aluminum corossion problem?
Dick Ruzzin
Dick, if you are referring to the engine covers it will be awhile before I get to that part of the restoration. Right now I am concentrating on rebuilding the structure to get some strength back into the car. I have fabricated the new rocker panels and floor braces and I will be starting on that part of the car soon. But as far as the aluminum corrosion goes I suspect I will have to cut the lower several inches of the engine cover sheet metal off and fabricate new repair panels for those areas.
Greg Kalmes
Thanks Lee.
The hood is also aluminum, like the engine covers it is a sheet of aluminum pop riveted to a steel frame. Add salt and water and you have a battery.
There s published information by AUDI addressing this issue as they ahave done aluminum bodies on steel frames. If you could do something to prevent the erosion that every Mangusta will ultimately have that would be great for your car.
Dick Ruzzin
Dick, The front hood on my car appears to be corrosion free, it's just the rear engine covers that have some issues. I will be sure to do some research before I tackle that particular problem. Thanks for the tip about the information from AUDI. I will look for that.
Greg
Water splashes up from the wheels, hits the engine cover then slides down into the seam at the bttom of the cover. The seal on the body side really does not sto it.
In the well ehind the wheel on each side I drilled a 1/4 inch hole to drain it as water would collect in there.
My car has not been in the rain since 1986. And i do not wash it with a hose.
Dick Ruzzin
...the drain holes there are smart. I did make drain holes in esp the rear wheel houses (beneath the battery and AC drier), unless you make holes intentionally to drain the car holes will be created for you...
And on 8ma1046 and 1076, did have galvanic corrosion exactly in the area you mention (lower edge of the engine covers, where the aluminum is crimped over the steel frame). DeT used copper rivets when fastening Al and Steel together (ex, the noise covers over the engine and the intake inlets between the rear inner wheel housing and the paper tubes...). But otherwise, the prevention is to avoid the electrical connection -- esp, paint on the steel and tape between the steel and aluminum, so they electrically are isolated. And of course, maybe only available when replacing new AL.
While you have the chance, cleaning out the inner doors, making a swimming pool internally with POR-15, then drilling drain holes for water to exit are smart. The goose is something like a roach motel for water (easy to come in, hard to leave...)--Lee
@Greg Kalmes posted:Lee, Thanks. I've been spending most of my weekends and some days during the week working on the car. I'm hoping to have the floors done within the next two weeks. I will post more pictures as I get further along. Greg
@Greg Kalmes posted:
A few more pictures of the rust repair on my Mangusta.
awesome pictures, Greg. You are making great progress and the work looks terrific...Lee
@leea posted:awesome pictures, Greg. You are making great progress and the work looks terrific...Lee
@Greg Kalmes posted:
Here is what 250 plus hours of rust repair and metal work and 2 days worth of sandblasting looks like........a rust free 1968 Mangusta. Now come lots of bodywork....filling, straightening, and primering. I am looking forward to it.
@Greg Kalmes posted:
Here is what 250 plus hours of rust repair and metal work and 2 days worth of sandblasting looks like........a rust free 1968 Mangusta. Now come lots of bodywork....filling, straightening, and primering. I am looking forward to it.
Greg, looks like great, solid work that is going to produce a really good car...Lee
@leea posted:Greg, looks like great, solid work that is going to produce a really good car...Lee
Thanks Lee. I am looking forward to the bodywork phase of this project even though there is a huge amount. I will continue to post pictures as the work progresses.
Congrats on the great work. Love what I see in a world where body shops just want to do in&out insurance work. You'll find a few knowledgeable Mangusta owners on this forum should you need information.
Wow, hats off to you Greg... You're getting to the fun part now. Great work, I look forward to seeing your progress.
MH
@Greg Kalmes posted:
At some time in it's history my Mangusta went down in a ditch when it was stolen. As a result of the bell housing getting caught on something, most of the brackets holding it in place were broken and then poorly repaired. I fabricated some new brackets to make correct repairs and also reinforced some areas.
Greg,
Missed one point when I was looking..... the lower mount for the inner rear a-arm Unibal joints.... As built that "H" shaped piece is held only to the rest of the chassis on one side of the "H".
As you have added the other upper reinforcements in the rear suspension area, I would consider building the rear side of the "H" up to the frameworks. BUT, that area of the long arms going to the rear of the frame looks different from what I remember seeing....... I have not heard of any of these breaking off.......but, what do I know! Perhaps others with early cars can chime in!!! Need to do a little sleuthing to see what's what here!
Found a couple of shots of my rear engine bay showing "mid production" build!
NICE WORK!!!!
Steve
I got some more work done on the 1968 Mangusta. Epoxy primer on the floors, engine compartment, wheelhouses, and front frame area. Seal sealer and undercoating where needed. Now I am starting to do the smoothing, straightening, and filler work. I hope to have the rest of the car in epoxy primer soon.
Wowza... That is impressive work... Perhaps the inspiration needed to jump back into the rabbithole on my own wild goose chase
MH
Great documentation. I can see this being handy to someone down the road.
Greg, I was thinking last week about you and eager to see an update....wow, are you making great progress. Looks absolutely great.
AAAAGH! BOOGER WELDING ABOUNDS....or as I also call it "worm welding"....as if you squeezed a worm a few times to get piles of poo like you found!!! Now, you also say that some of this may have been from prior "repairs" due to offroading experience........ BUTT, I have seen pic's of factory welding that looked very similar to what you have!
Then there are other cars, that have really proper nice welding throughout...... My car had beautiful welds, but I never knew where the factory ended and prior owners continued.........in "clean up" and restore or "show car" efforts!
You had asked about the numbers and frame markings near the serial number.....have never seen the format that you have here! "Normally" you find some sort of a star then an 8MAxxxx and another star.......but your car being only the 42'cnd ish car built..... things were probably sort of fluid......!!!
Outstanding progress!!!!
Cheers,
Steve
Never thought I'd see the day. The car has been primered and block sanded several times and is in finish primer. Next I will rebuild the doors and engine covers. Then I will tackle the removable roof.
straight and solid...that car is going to look great even 100 years from now. Will be fun to see how you engineer the detachable roof....Lee
Nice job Greg.
I finally made some time this last week to rebuild one of my Mangusta doors. As you can see I didn't have a lot to work with but I found a small section of one of the two doors that I could use a profile gauge on to make a pattern. So after bending up the lower door repair and making the two corners I could then start on making the outer lower skin. I had the door on and off about a dozen time to tweak the gaps and then tack weld it together but it's pretty close. A little more adjustment here and there and I can then take the door off again and finish welding it.
True artisan work. Congrats
What's behind door number two? The same thing as door number one....rust! Big surprise, I know. However, this door repair represents the last of the actual rust that needed to be dealt with on this huge project. I still have to address the galvanic corrosion in the rear engine gullwings but that's a different process and I will most likely deal with that when the car is back on the ground. My goal is to do some additional reinforcements to the front lower control arms and repaint all the suspension pieces and then for the first time in 20 years place this Mangusta back on it's wheels. Hopefully this will happen by spring. Wish me luck.
Greg, have a look at "late" production control arms Steve has for sale, as they have some additional reiforcements. 1968 1969 1970 DeTomaso Mangusta PAIR of Front Lower A-arms NOS Last revision | eBay. Also I would recommend adding the rear gussets even if you are not tracking the car. Keep up the great work. Denis
Greg, this transformation from a 50+ year old car with red overcoat to a really solid, last forever body is just fantastic to watch. It is so much harder to rebuild than build, and it looks so incredible.
The galvanic corrosion on the wings is very common, and the remedy is electrical isolation (with tape and/or paint over the steel frame). If your ability with aluminum is as good as what you do with steel, can't wait to see more pictures.
But wow, you are making good progress to a great car...Lee
I started working on my suspension this week with the hope of getting it done in time to put this car back on the ground by springtime. This Mangusta has not been on it's wheels since the previous owner bought it over 20 years ago. First I reinforced the front lower control arms more or less the way DeTomaso did on later production cars. There were some additional reinforcements done on these arms by someone else but they looked even sturdier than factory so I left them alone. Then as I was sandblasting the components in preparation for painting I noticed evidence of some kind of plating on the parts so I decided to go that way instead. I am going to have them plated in gold zinc which may not be correct but will provide a nice contrast.
Greg, Dick Ruzzin and Jonny Woods wrote various articles, this is one I could find quickly which explains, and I have incorporated this modification on my car.
https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...ruzzindesign-aol-com
There are various points covered, all good to incorporate as you move forward
there may be other posts as well.
I spoke to Jonny, basically most of the arms have rose or Heim joints. One that doesn’t is critical and a lot of people have incorporated joints at each end. This stops the rear wheel going toe in to toe out as it travels up / down during hard cornering.
That was a major criticism in the day. keep the original arms but suggest you consider the extra joint.
Ps I’ve sent you an email regarding the steering rack
cheers
Oh, so that's what a clean ZF looks like. I was wondering. Thanks.
While the suspension is off to the platers, I thought I'd finish up the last of the structural improvements that my Mangusta needed. I have learned a lot about how these cars were constructed and it's apparent that as the years went by DeTomaso recognized that there were a number of improvements that could be made to make the cars better. One area that was in need of help was the rear "H" crossmember that locates the lower control arm. Early cars like mine were not as strong as later cars. So, after Steve brought it to my attention I did some studying and learned how the later cars were built and decided to incorporate this improvement into my car as well. While this was not done exactly as the factory did it I believe it accomplishes the same thing.
Greg,
Those lower a-arm mods look great! Those triangle for the rear frame sections look great!!! Those extensions to the rear "H" piece look great!!!! It's all looking REALLY GREAT!!!
What I wanna see, as I missed it in one of your last body posts, is how you're gonna fit that Firebird front grill piece on the car!!! That's gonna look revolutionary!!!
:0 !!! It's too big for the Vega, so must be for the Goose.......
Got a spare 'Bird grill????? Goose owner here just started a new project converting a 74ish monster bumper to small.....
Cheers!!!
Steve
@Greg Kalmes posted:I started working on my suspension this week with the hope of getting it done in time to put this car back on the ground by springtime. This Mangusta has not been on it's wheels since the previous owner bought it over 20 years ago. First I reinforced the front lower control arms more or less the way DeTomaso did on later production cars. There were some additional reinforcements done on these arms by someone else but they looked even sturdier than factory so I left them alone. Then as I was sandblasting the components in preparation for painting I noticed evidence of some kind of plating on the parts so I decided to go that way instead. I am going to have them plated in gold zinc which may not be correct but will provide a nice contrast.
I got the suspension back from the plater this week. Everything came out great looking but there was a problem with the lower control arms. The arms had too many pinholes and pits in the factory welds and every time they attempted to plate them the cleaning solution that had collected in the pits would drip out and ruin the plating. I have a solution to that problem that I am going to try and I will let everyone know how that comes out.
Who does your plating?
When I need silver or gold zinc plating I use Key City Plating in Dubuque, Iowa. When I need chrome done I use A.I.H. Also in Dubuque.
That will be an interesting look, @johnnywoods did an engine bay restoration where the client wanted a similar deviation on plating. Technically not "original", but the end result was gorgeous.
MH
...as someone who really values the original look, I see these and think, well, a can of black spray paint is always available. And until then, geez, do they look brilliant
Greg, the best rule to always keep in mind when restoring your car, is just to remember that it is your car...!! And the care that is going into this car is remarkable...Lee
(ps, I think I remember JW's comment that engine bay in the Goose is somewhat like peeking into a bear cave...I polished the brass water tank because otherwise, over the carpet and under the engine covers, its really pretty dank in there...)
Lee, I agree. I always try to do my own cars a little differently so they don't look like anyone else's. That having been said, after sandblasting the silver paint from these parts I could see evidence that they had originally been plated. I couldn't tell the color for sure since the parts had been sandblasted previously. Some parts looked like silver plating and some spots looked gold. So I decided to plate them with gold zinc because the several Ferrari Daytonas I've done of the same time period used gold plating (probably cadmium) on various suspension components including the control arms and I thought it was a nice look and these parts will contrast nicely with the aluminum uprights, orange Koni's, and black engine compartment. Here are some pictures of a Daytona suspension to illustrate what I mean.
HAH! Lee, I was looking at pictures before I read your note....thinking what the heck did someone do to their Goose???? Knock offs????
I didn't like the rear "dungeon" look in the Goose.....don't like it in 'Merican car front bays either...... So this was the reason I did mine in silver (after repairing LH rear shock tower)....so that I could see grease/oil spooge and cracks.....and on one of the first times we took a trip to one of the POCA rallys, we encountered a severe construction pavement transition on the way home.......and when I got home, sure enuf, there was a crack on the RH rear shock tower plain as day in that silver!! I can't say that it looks bad or good.....but I like it! "It's my car!"
As far as blacking the suspension etc parts out...... "one or two puddles and it isn't black any longer"!!!!
Cheers!!!
Steve
As far as blacking the suspension etc parts out...... "one or two puddles and it isn't black any longer"!!!!
Steve, I know what you mean--to me, semi-gloss is a color choice, undercoat splatter is a color choice, and bold color means whether the insert in the Nyloc is yellow or ESNA red...And all lost in perspective of the real world. Pretty interesting that Greg find the suspension pieces were actually plated at all...! Really, in a Mangusta the only really daring in the engine bay is when a few have chrome plated the rear cross bar, even a polished ZF doesn't offend anybody. And Greg, for a million things on a Mangusta, the answer on "what is right" is normally a mystery anyways. If you avoid red body color, the chance of you parking next to another Mangusta and looking the same is really low . Having such an early Goose is special in itself.
@leea posted: If you avoid red body color, the chance of you parking next to another Mangusta and looking the same is really low.
@leea as the owner of the red Mangusta that is just down the road from YOUR red Mangusta, I resemble that statement !!!
@Greg Kalmes here is a link to the Johnny Woods restoration, might give you some ideas when you get to the engine bay..
https://www.harlywax.co.uk/De-...on-Johnny-Woods.html
MH
Yeah, the Houston Mangusta club with 2 members, both red with black interior and both without the leather wrap on the steering wheel! Geez, I'd accidentally try to start your car with my key...if my car was in one piece, of course
I have painted more cars red than any other color but I decided long ago that my car would get painted something else. Originally the car was silver but to me that says Porsche or Mercedes. I have been experimenting with various colors and have found some that look like what DeTomaso called Rosso Aurora. I still have some time to think about it but this is the way I'm leaning right now.
Nice color... As Lee pointed out, anything other than red will make it stand out... BUT... Let's be honest, a Mangusta looks good in ANY color and the odds of randomly parking next to another one AT ALL is a bet even Vegas wouldn't cover...
Choose "the color less painted" (Apologies to Robert Frost)
MH
Mike, I agree, not only does the Goose look great in almost any color, but as well that color (that kind of Rosso Dino (where the DiNO stands for "DoN't say Orange") is a color that looks so wrong on some cars---but works so wonderfully on a Goose to feel both contemporary and retro at the same time...
I am still working on the Mangusta in case anyone was wondering. After getting the suspension plated and cleaning the aluminum uprights I decided I would take a break on the suspension and tackle the galvanic corrosion in the engine covers. Even though I have been doing this work for almost 45 years I have never needed to do much work with aluminum sheet metal before, other that stripping and refinishing various hoods and deck lids. I have never welded anything but steel. So, after consulting with a welder I know who has an aluminum spool gun but was reluctant to weld such a long repair panel for fear of warping the metal, I decided to do most of the repair with structural adhesive and keep the welding to a minimum. Please, bear with me until I finish these areas because when I am finished these repairs will be as undetectable on the inside as well as the outside. More pictures coming soon. Also, this repair is going to be much stronger than the way the factory had it because there was no way for them to attach the skin to the steel framework after folding over the hem but now the skin is bonded to the steel with the adhesive. This is the same adhesive that Honda says is an acceptable product to use in installing rocker panels on their cars after a collision.
As always, impressive work... 898 is in the paint shop now, so hopefully there will be two more Mangustas on the road in the near future.
Keep at it, you're doing amazing work!!!
MH
Greg,
Welding aluminum on panels etc is just like welding steel! Tiny welds!!!! Tack weld along the way...... then Weld 1/4" stop. Go to other end of panel rinse repeat.....
Great work!!!!!!! You're makin' me jealous!
Steve
Hello everyone. I wanted to let everybody know that I had put my Mangusta project on hold for a few months due to caring for my wife after a severe car accident on August 14th. After a heavy rain there was a stream of water running across the road and when she hit it, her 2018 Subaru Forester spun 90 degrees and into the front of a brand new GMC one ton pickup. Both vehicles were totalled and the Subaru blew all ten of it's airbags. My wife was beat up pretty bad and fractured two vertebrae in her neck which required her to wear a neck brace for 3&1/2 months but thankfully her injuries did not require surgery. She was able to remove the neck brace two weeks ago and according to the orthopedic surgeon at Iowa University Hospital has healed quite well. So, as life begins to get back to normal I've made some time to work on the Mangusta again. Mostly I have continued to work on repairing the engine covers and should be finished with both of them soon. But also I found someone locally to make the new rear suspension upper lateral links for me with heim joints at both ends. I thought you might be interested in seeing the pictures of these parts and I will continue to post again as soon as I make some more progress.
Greg, I've been wondering about you, and was hoping that you were just busy with putting back together cars (and not family...and wonderful that she is doing so well, these miracles of healing are really precious).
And I know that making those links is not hard--but making ones that look so great certainly is (!) Lee
Greg,
Glad to hear your wife is doing better!!! Do what you gotta do! The GOose will be done when it is time!
Cheers!
Steve
Wow Greg, the engineering is that Subaru certainly did its job! Hats off to the engineers.
Sad to hear but great news your wife is ok. I’m sure the Mangusta can wait, hope she fully recovers and you guys have a relaxing Christmas.
all the best
cheers
Larry Tucker
Glad to hear your wife is recovering, as Larry said,the goose can wait... the links look awesome, I considered doing that on 898 but decided to stick with original instead... Were those custom made or off the shelf parts?
MH
Mike, the links were made for me by Uelner Tool and Die in Dubuque, Iowa. Tom Uelner is a true car guy and made these for me himself. Both links along with the additional heim joints cost me $240.00
I've been restoring cars for the better part of 45 years now and in all that time I've never had to deal with aluminum all that much, other than some minor straightening. But the engine covers on my Mangusta had some severe galvanic corrosion in the corners as well as some minor collision damage. I talked to a couple of shops about welding in the repair panels I would make but nobody wanted to tackle welding aluminum sheet for fear of warping the metal. So, my solution was to use 3M structural adhesive to glue the pieces together which is strong enough to glue roof skins, rocker panels, and box sides onto modern vehicles. Since the engine covers aren't structural I figured the adhesive would work just fine.
Fun to look at these photos. I agree engine covers aren’t structural but when opening a gull wing with the cover attached it feels more rigid vs without the cover. Anyways no big deal. Cool tool notches on the links so you can turn them. Thx for sharing.
Yeah, I was lucky, the guy who tackled this on my car is an amazing precision welder...One more thing to take care of--really try to insulate the aluminum from the steel frame--electrically. Meaning the best is to put a piece of tape (even, duct tape) between the steel frame and the aluminum...or paint, anything that keeps the electrical connection in being made.
The opposite approach was in the Mangusta as well, using copper rivets to hold the dis-similar metals tightly together...All those rivets in the engine covers between the aluminum panels and the steel braces, they are copper--and also copper is used for the intake ports (the aluminum castings in the rear sidewalls near the battery/starter solenoid)....or of course, on the hood. Last place I can think of is on the hood, where even I had a couple of pinholes where the steel cross brace at the midpoint of the hood just touched the aluminum skin...
Greg, its always a thrill to see your pictures---Lee