Grinds in 2nd and 3rd

Insure the clutch is disengaging completely:

(1) the clearance between slave & arm is not too great.

(2) the clutch system is bled completely (no residual air)

(3) there is nothing between the clutch pedal & floorboard (carpeting, floor mat) that would prevent you from pushing it all the way to the floor.

(4) the seat is far enough forward that you can depress the pedal completely too.

(5) Some clutches will require the "long throw" slave.

Your friend on the DTBB

You have to have enough travel at the rear cyl.Measure the travel at the arm. Have someone depress the pedal fully and get a number in inches. We can compare it mine. Mine travels a half inch.

PD, You can kinda tell....if your clutch pedal disenguages close to the floor, or your car creeps, you are not disenguaging enough. My third gear also has a slight crunch when shifting at speed. If you have short ttravel and mushy pedal. You need to tap on the fluid line as you bleed air out. ...How much travel?

I have almost an inch of throw -you can poke a screwdriver in and spin the clutch disk with the pedal depressed so it is disengaging all the way. One guy said I have the wrong clutch disk (too small) but also said that wasn't the problem. He said "synchros" and I believe him -just don't understand why the problem would surface just after a clutch change. The car shows 58,000 miles. It runs fantastic but shows some signs of abuse -I think you would have to be really hard on a trans to blow the synchros in 58,000 miles!

It has no problem at any speed going into first, fourth or fifth -you can sort of "feel" the synchro when downshifting to first. I don't get that feel at all in second -a little in third. I usually start out in second and carefully shift to third.

Hey Coz! Wanna do my trans?? I don't live TOO far!!
(read how you did your own rebuild!!)

You can't guess on whether or not the clutch is fully releasing.
First of all there is no way that you should run a Long style clutch in a Pantera. The system can't travel enough for it to fully release. You definately can hurt the trannie with one as a result.
A Borg & Beck, also know as a diaphram is what you should use.
You need to measure the clearance between the flywheel and disc at full travel.
The minimum clearance for a Long is about .035".
A diaphram should be about .045".
If you don't have that you need to find out why and correct it.
Also for some undetermined reason, the 10.5" clutch works better then the 11". It holds better, it releases better, etc.
I know it doesn't make sense but it is what I have found.

I don't know if you saw my post when you first got your car.
Find out where the last owner got his clutch. If it came from an auto parts store, he may have installed the wrong clutch. If it came from a "buddy" mechanic, it may be the wrong clutch. If it came from a Pantera vendor, or was done by a Pantera specialist, then it is probably the right clutch.
A long throw slave cylinder and steel braided line may help if it is the right clutch. It did on mine. If it is the wrong clutch, then you will probably have to replace the clutch. If you need the correct clutch, or good advice, call Dennis Quella at Pantera Performance Center in Colorado. He knows his business and you'll get the straight scoop.
Later, Mooso.

It is sad when the seller fails to disclose information that can have you going in the wrong direction with a statment like "It was fine before we put the new clutch in" Now you are looking at the clutch that is probobly not the problem. Like I said mine crunches into third, but second is fine. I belive you need syncronizers too. You can inspect all your clutch stuff while you have the tranny out.

After having my ZF rebuilt and installing the correct clutch, mine still exibited intermittant grinding going into 2nd and 3rd. It was solved by replacing the clutch slave with a long throw slave and the plastic line with a steel line.
I'm not suggesting replacing the clutch. I'm suggesting finding out what the clutch is and where it came from.
If it is the right clutch, then the new slave may help. The long throw slave changed the clutch release point on my car as well. The release used to be down toword the floor. Now it releases in the middle of the peddle throw. Much nicer to drive this way.
If your ZF needs rebuilt, then there's no way around it, but if the problem is the wrong clutch or you need more release actuation from your slave, you're going to save a lot of dough by not jumping into a ZF rebuild. If you've never hidden a thing from your wife before...you're gonna want to hide the cost of a ZF rebuild from her.

Last PB brings up a good point with air in the slave system. I've heard stories where guys really fought air bubbles trapped in the slave cylinder and line after a clutch replacement. Also, any sign of fluid leaking from the slave line or cylinder could also indicate air being drawn in. Be sure these components are tight and carefully bleed the cylinder. Tapping on it helps any bubbles to rise to the top.
If your clutch master cylinder seals are bad you will not get full actuation pressure and less than full disengagement. Any fluid leakage around the master cylinder could indicate air getting into the system there.
I think you have to start at the peddle and shift knob and just carefully inspect everything in the clutch and shifting systems.
Somehow we'll get to the bottom of this.

It has no problem at any speed going into first, fourth or fifth -you can sort of "feel" the synchro when downshifting to first. I don't get that feel at all in second -a little in third. I usually start out in second and carefully shift to third. This statment says to me...The linkage is ok, He can spin the disc.. That is loose. My car only has 62G, I can still live with my slight grind, Your probobly going to want to call a vender. I know PIM has one, ask for Jerry. Of course Lloyd Butfoy

Hey Coz! Wanna do my trans?? I don't live TOO far!!
(read how you did your own rebuild!!)[/QUOTE]

Sychros are around $300 each for this trannie. The gasket kit is $300. Gears are $900 each.
If there is wear, hopefully it is the sychro and not the gear.
What happens is that when you push on the gear lever, it pushes the synchro against the gear and it works like a break to slow down the spinning gear. When the two are coordinated or synchronized the slider is able to lock the gear to the mainshaft.
Reverse or second gear in almost all manual transmissions are what have the most grinding problems. Reverse has no synchro. One can normally use second gear to slow the spinning down, by shifting into second first, to engauge reverse without grinding.
2nd is the largest gear on the cluster and has the most mass.
That makes it the most difficult to slow down.
The synchro is supposed to be the fuseable link, meaning the cheap replacement part.
The gear hat already is very polished from the machining process to begin with.
The synchro is the female component corresponding to the hat on the gear. When it becomes polished then you loose the breaking effect of the synchro. Kinda like glazed brakes. They very rarely completly fail. They are geneally a fancy manganese-bronze alloy.
Since synchros work on a frictional basis,
and sometimes when synthetic lube is used it is too slick. It doesn't permit the necessary friction for the synchro to work properly.
Sometimes by simply returning to the original petrolium gear lube, the problem is solved. Sometimes.
What lube works best is a function of the synchro design itself.
The BW T10 synchros which are also used in the Doug Nash and the Richmond, Supper T10's are like this. They don't work as well as they should with synthetic gear lube. The real problem is that they are too small for the size of the gear they are supposed to slow down. They are used because of the price. They are less then $10 each.

Thanks for all the replies!!!

I have determined that the clutch is fully disengaging -I really think the second gear synchro is gone and I think third can't be far behind. I have no idea if the ring gear is safety wired either so I think the right choice is to have the trans gone through and freshened up a bit. I was going to just check the fluid level but I don't have an allen wrench that fits the fill or drain plug -anyone have any idea what size it takes? English or metric?

quote:

Originally posted by Panteradreamin:
Thanks for all the replies!!!

I have determined that the clutch is fully disengaging -I really think the second gear synchro is gone and I think third can't be far behind. I have no idea if the ring gear is safety wired either so I think the right choice is to have the trans gone through and freshened up a bit. I was going to just check the fluid level but I don't have an allen wrench that fits the fill or drain plug -anyone have any idea what size it takes? English or metric?

I believe that it is 17mm. You can get it just about anywhere now that has a good selection of tools, like Sears, as an allen socket but you will have to shorten it with a grindstone.

Before you go jumping to conclusions, drain the fluid and refill it with a stock replacement type.
Make sure that it is the full heavy weight as originally equiped.
Then drive it around some. See if the grinding is better or maybe goes away?

Thanks PanteraDoug! I will drain and refill the trans!

How difficlut is it to remove the bottom cover and see if the ring gear is safety wired? (Looks like a chore!) There are two long bolts that don't look like they will come out without lifting the trans up a bit. Would it be worth it to remove the cover?

Ask LPB, Bill was about to do his. It is unclear if the long bolts car be removed in the car.
I did mine when the driveline was out.

I drained and refilled my transmission last night and 4 of these were stuck to the magnet in the drain plug. I found another one in the bottom of my drain pan when I emptied it. Whatcha think? Rebuild time?

Those do look like synchro teeth, but if they are, they shouldn't be magnetic. I thought synchroes were made of bronze. I bet Loyd would know for sure.

Pantera ZF synchros are steel. Porsche ZF synchros are bronze.
Don't feel alone. When I bought my car it had a grind going into 2nd. The former owner said the shift linkage was just a little out of adjustment. I didn't know anything about Panteras so I believed him. My ZF cost $4600 to rebuild.
That's why I was hoping it was the clutch in your case. Looks like it's going to have to come out.
Sorry.

Moose, since I have not had my ZF apart, I cannot argue about the material of the sychros.
If it is true, that is a ludicrous thing to do.
That would make it steel to steel and the sychros could friction weld themselves to the gear. I find that difficult to believe.
Having said that, the gears have the same tooth pattern on them as the sychros.
They look more like the gear to synchro teeth to me.
Some of the newer transmissions are using fiber sychros and blocking rings. Mostly for weight savings.
Looks like that trannie needs to be opened.
So much for the good old "built proof" ZF huh?

Heck Doug, thirty five years ago it was bulletproof. So was I. But 35 years from now that tranny will still be there in that car and I will be six feet under rotting away.

So, if I get it pulled out and shipped off. What kind of turn around time am I looking at?

Man, this sucks! I just got the car and was hoping to drive it for a while before I had to sink a bunch more $$$ into it. (Perhaps that is why the car sold so cheap!!) It has proven to be very rust free and it runs like a top -it shows signs of abuse but is still a great car. Guess I will bite the bullet and pull out the trans!

Thanks for all the replies!!

Rust free is worth even more than the tranny. You will have to check with Loyd as to how quick he can get it turned around. But once you do, you will be back to bulletproof.

DT, your messag is garbled on the PI and can't read it clearly.
Does it say that 35 years ago you were a 6 foot trannie and got turned around?

quote:

Originally posted by Panteradreamin:
So, if I get it pulled out and shipped off. What kind of turn around time am I looking at?

Man, this sucks! I just got the car and was hoping to drive it for a while before I had to sink a bunch more $$$ into it. (Perhaps that is why the car sold so cheap!!) It has proven to be very rust free and it runs like a top -it shows signs of abuse but is still a great car. Guess I will bite the bullet and pull out the trans!

Thanks for all the replies!!

Look at the bright side here now. How much would it have cost you to get flatbeded in (you can't tow the Pantera without bending it up pretty good). More the likely the ring gear bolts are loose.

I can't believe this ring gear business. I have beaten the living daylights out of a lot of American muscle cars and I have never seen or heard of ring gear bolts failing.
The Ford 9 inch, if anything, are a major knuckle knocker to get apart.
I can't knock the Italians on the ZF because it isn't Italian, it's German.
This is shocking.
If the synchros are indeed steel, I'm shoping for a new combination. This is total BS.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
DT, your messag is garbled on the PI and can't read it clearly.
Does it say that 35 years ago you were a 6 foot trannie and got turned around?

No it said 35 years ago it was as hard as a bullet and now it drags on the ground.

quote:

I have beaten the living daylights out of a lot of American muscle cars and I have never seen or heard of ring gear bolts failing.

Maybe it has something to do with the transmission being mounted upside down in a Pantera??

Your lucky DT, mine shrank and my gut got bigger so I can't see it anymore.

I would think that being upside down would not be a problem for bolts. Nuts maybe?

I remember this girl at Michigan that hung out with the football team. She had an impression of a W on her chest. I never could figure that one out?

Llyod did tell me on the phone, that the problem is the bolts loosen and then back out.
The heads will shear because of the close tolerances.
Now apparently the loosen because they stretch from the original torking. If that is the case, they are inferior steel. The super alloy steel can't be stretched enough to do that. I think we are in the 220,000 psi tensile strength area with ring gear bolts now.
Stock must be very soft steel that is case hardened?

Let's ask Dan Jones? This is more up his alley then mine.

They look like syncho teeth tome, the syncho hubs I have on my bench are definately magnetic. I have seen synchro rings that have split, so you get no syncho effect. I would always advise that crown wheel bolts are both "loctited" and safety wired, worst case I have seen is all ten bolts bolts sheared off !!! Then what often happens is that the crown wheel punches the broken bolt through the bottom cover, the oil leaks out,everything overheats, and then it all gets expensive!! Unfortunately I'm based in UK so not very convinient to you U.S. guys. But with 15 years experience of ZF Trans. always willing to offer advice if you need it.

They are synchro ring engaugement teeth, I will bet the synchro is cracked in more then one spot. Lloyd Butfoy @ RBT

Thank you Lloyd. There you are gentlemen. The Profit has spoken.

I personally am surprized because I expected to see bronze synchros in a transmission of this era.

That's it. I refuse to drive this car until I examine my healthy ZF further. Now I'm affraid to drop the pan.
Can someone help me find the courage? I need another shot of courage. Barkeep...

You will not see a hole lot in the pan just ring gear bolts and the pinion to inspect. Lloyd

quote:

Originally posted by Lloyd Butfoy:
You will not see a hole lot in the pan just ring gear bolts and the pinion to inspect. Lloyd

The heads from the sheared ring gear bolts and the teeth from the broken syncros, what else is there to know you got problems?

Popped the cover just before I crated it up. Ring gear was safety wired and the inside (what you could see) was clean. No more chunks.

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Just a quick update! I got the trans back and installed yesterday (July 7th) -shifts fantastic!!

Thanks Frank!!!

quote:

Just a quick update! I got the trans back and installed yesterday (July 7th) -shifts fantastic!!

Welcome back to the driving, not garage, world.

So the rest of us can get some real world info, who did the repairs, what was repaired/replaced and what were the costs/charges?

thanks,

Larry

Frank Jerome (The Final Touch) of Burleson, Texas did the rebuild. The second, third and fifth gear synchros were toast as well as a trust washer. Sounds like it was mostly due to neglect (previous owner) --Fluid NEEDS to be changed regularly!! Pantera Performance in Castle Rock, Colorado pressed on the new synchros. Total cost with shipping was just shy of $3,000.00. Trans came back in a well built crate, stripped clean, ready for paint and installation!! I shipped it out 5/17 and got it back 7/7.

I would highly recommend Frank's services!!

I owned the car for such a short time before I had to send off the trans that I never really got to drive it. This thing is an absolute BLAST!!!

quote:

Pantera Performance in Castle Rock, Colorado pressed on the new synchros.

Were these Dennis' brass (bronze?) synchros?

Larry

I personally think that brass synchros are the way to go.
I know that there are some other people that agree.
I suppose that it took some dedication to have them made and that getting them made was the issue.
I certainly hope that this is true that they exist now.