Has anyone ordered the electronic ignition package from Hall? The website doesn't offer much detail on what is included. The components are described as Ford but I can't tell much from the photograph.
Hall electronic ignition
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Its a Ford Duraspark ignition, a late 1970s era ignition, Ford's first breakerless ignition system, triggered by a magnetic pick-up inside the distributor. The distributor is a rebuilt Ford distributor, but the module appears aftermarket to me. The coil is definitely aftermarket. Its was a reliable ignition, the Ford modules would run 10 years or 100,000+ miles. But an aftermarket module throws a big question mark into that equation.
If you're looking for a simple upgrade to a breakerless ignition, the MSD #8350 Ready-To-Run Pro-Billet distributor is an inexpensive, quick to install all-in-one ignition upgrade. The module is built into the distributor, providing the simplicity of a 3-wire hook-up. It utilizes a reliable magnetic trigger, it produces a 7.5 amp single spark, it has a 10° vacuum advance, and the centrifugal advance is easy to adjust with the supplied stop bushings and springs. Since the ignition does not produce multiple sparks the factory tach will work just fine without the need for a tach adapter. The distributor is tall, barely fits where it needs to go, but it fits. You'll need one of the recommended MSD coils to compliment it.
Compatible coils include:
(A) Chrome Blaster 2 #8200 (140 milliamp)
(B) Blaster 2 #8202 (140 milliamp)
(C) Blaster SS #8207 (300 milliamp)
Once the distributor is installed in the motor and the timing has been set, the phasing of the distributor’s rotor should be checked to insure the rotor is aligned with the terminal posts in the cap through the full range of centrifugal and vacuum advance. This is accomplished by drilling an inspection hole in the distributor cap near the post for cylinder #1 and observing the rotor with a timing light while the motor is running. Since you're drilling a hole in the distributor cap, you'll need a spare cap right off the bat.
I also strongly advise you to bypass the original ignition power circuit, which is routed through the ignition switch. Install the following circuit to supply your new ignition, whichever one you choose.
-G
If you're looking for a simple upgrade to a breakerless ignition, the MSD #8350 Ready-To-Run Pro-Billet distributor is an inexpensive, quick to install all-in-one ignition upgrade. The module is built into the distributor, providing the simplicity of a 3-wire hook-up. It utilizes a reliable magnetic trigger, it produces a 7.5 amp single spark, it has a 10° vacuum advance, and the centrifugal advance is easy to adjust with the supplied stop bushings and springs. Since the ignition does not produce multiple sparks the factory tach will work just fine without the need for a tach adapter. The distributor is tall, barely fits where it needs to go, but it fits. You'll need one of the recommended MSD coils to compliment it.
Compatible coils include:
(A) Chrome Blaster 2 #8200 (140 milliamp)
(B) Blaster 2 #8202 (140 milliamp)
(C) Blaster SS #8207 (300 milliamp)
Once the distributor is installed in the motor and the timing has been set, the phasing of the distributor’s rotor should be checked to insure the rotor is aligned with the terminal posts in the cap through the full range of centrifugal and vacuum advance. This is accomplished by drilling an inspection hole in the distributor cap near the post for cylinder #1 and observing the rotor with a timing light while the motor is running. Since you're drilling a hole in the distributor cap, you'll need a spare cap right off the bat.
I also strongly advise you to bypass the original ignition power circuit, which is routed through the ignition switch. Install the following circuit to supply your new ignition, whichever one you choose.
-G
Thanks, George. I figured it would be the Duraspark but couldn't be sure.
Also thanks for the recommendation on the MSD all-in-one. I'm investigating the options for breakerless ignition. The first step will be determining exactly what I've got. I know I have a 6 series MSD box and the previous owner is pretty sure the distributor is still running points. That would indicate to me that they haven't been checked in a while. I'm going to remove the bulkhead for the first time this week to take inventory and have a good look around.
I've had some starting misadventures and this will give me a chance to begin sorting things.
Since I mentioned my "misadventures" I'll give a brief account.
With each start, regardless of engine temperature, the first crank sounds so slow and weak that I'm afraid the battery is going tits up. After that first turn-over it will crank hard and fast... for as long as I have to crank. A few days ago I was cranking for a good 15 minutes and it was still cranking strong when the motor finally fired, so I'm led to believe the battery is good.
Cold starts. I've got the Holley 750 double pumper with a manual choke installed by the previous owner. My first several efforts with the choke bared little fruit. But I've developed a routine without using the choke that seems to work well even with the car sitting overnight with ambient temps below freezing. I'll pump the gas 5 times, crank a couple of times feathering the accelerator and she starts. The idle is rough for a while and I have to keep 1500-2000 rpms for a few minutes to get it to settle into an 800 rpm idle without dying. Once she settles into idle it is lopey but consistent.
I checked the choke while it should have been fully open and it was sitting at about 45 degrees. I opened the rest of the way and haven't used it since. I'm considering removing it since I can start the car without it when temp is in the 20s.
Hot starts have been the real issue. I often have to give 5-10 cranks to get her to fire up. Pumping the accelerator several times seems to help some and once she fires I have to give her the gas and run the rpms above 1500 for a minute before she'll settle back into 800 without dying. No problems once we're running.
My neighbor is a retired Air Force mechanic and avid gearhead. His taste is more toward mid-year Corvettes but he has rebuilt a 351 Cleveland or two. He observed one of my hot start efforts and he suspects a timing issue or possibly a heat/vapor lock condition. We're going to check the timing later this week.
A few days ago I had a hot start experience that differed from all those preceding it. I cranked for at least 15 minutes without any sounds of fire. The very first crank was the usual death sound but she cranked hard and fast for the duration after that. I tried pumping and I tried dumping in case I had flooded (never smelled gas). Cranked and cranked but never heard any fire. I removed the air cleaner for a visual inspection and I had fuel squirting. Didn't seem to be a fuel issue.
Fortunately another car nut happened by to admire my Pantera. With his help I checked for spark at the drivers rear plug. He said he did NOT see a spark while I cranked it several times. He simply removed the wire and held it close to the block. I can't vouch for proper technique but he seemed to know what he was doing and he said he did not see a spark. He reattached the wire and I began preparing for my first trip on the flatbed.
We talked for a few minutes and I went back to give it one last try. Cranked a few times with nothing and then FINALLY we heard 1 pop of compression! I put the pedal to the floor, cranked and she soon fired up. As usual I had to run the rpms for a minute before settling into 800. For those first few minutes something sounded "off" about the idle but then it settled into the usual lope. The drive home was uneventful.
Once the car is running it is generally smooth and pulls strong all the way through 6k. I have noticed some jerk and hesitation with partial acceleration from low rpm. I've read that this can be a consequence of a generous-for-motor carburetor (750 on mildly tweaked motor) with mechanical secondaries as it runs through the lower rpms at low speed and light acceleration. Initially I had attributed all to this. Now I'm wondering if these issues are related?
I don't know the condition of the plugs, wires or distributor. The wires and coil "appear" bright, shiny new and I know the previous owner had a shop do some "freshening" in recent years, so the wires can't be too old. I'm going to inspect and replace the plugs this week. With my neighbor's assistance I'm also going to check the timing and condition of the distributor.
So the fun begins...
Also thanks for the recommendation on the MSD all-in-one. I'm investigating the options for breakerless ignition. The first step will be determining exactly what I've got. I know I have a 6 series MSD box and the previous owner is pretty sure the distributor is still running points. That would indicate to me that they haven't been checked in a while. I'm going to remove the bulkhead for the first time this week to take inventory and have a good look around.
I've had some starting misadventures and this will give me a chance to begin sorting things.
Since I mentioned my "misadventures" I'll give a brief account.
With each start, regardless of engine temperature, the first crank sounds so slow and weak that I'm afraid the battery is going tits up. After that first turn-over it will crank hard and fast... for as long as I have to crank. A few days ago I was cranking for a good 15 minutes and it was still cranking strong when the motor finally fired, so I'm led to believe the battery is good.
Cold starts. I've got the Holley 750 double pumper with a manual choke installed by the previous owner. My first several efforts with the choke bared little fruit. But I've developed a routine without using the choke that seems to work well even with the car sitting overnight with ambient temps below freezing. I'll pump the gas 5 times, crank a couple of times feathering the accelerator and she starts. The idle is rough for a while and I have to keep 1500-2000 rpms for a few minutes to get it to settle into an 800 rpm idle without dying. Once she settles into idle it is lopey but consistent.
I checked the choke while it should have been fully open and it was sitting at about 45 degrees. I opened the rest of the way and haven't used it since. I'm considering removing it since I can start the car without it when temp is in the 20s.
Hot starts have been the real issue. I often have to give 5-10 cranks to get her to fire up. Pumping the accelerator several times seems to help some and once she fires I have to give her the gas and run the rpms above 1500 for a minute before she'll settle back into 800 without dying. No problems once we're running.
My neighbor is a retired Air Force mechanic and avid gearhead. His taste is more toward mid-year Corvettes but he has rebuilt a 351 Cleveland or two. He observed one of my hot start efforts and he suspects a timing issue or possibly a heat/vapor lock condition. We're going to check the timing later this week.
A few days ago I had a hot start experience that differed from all those preceding it. I cranked for at least 15 minutes without any sounds of fire. The very first crank was the usual death sound but she cranked hard and fast for the duration after that. I tried pumping and I tried dumping in case I had flooded (never smelled gas). Cranked and cranked but never heard any fire. I removed the air cleaner for a visual inspection and I had fuel squirting. Didn't seem to be a fuel issue.
Fortunately another car nut happened by to admire my Pantera. With his help I checked for spark at the drivers rear plug. He said he did NOT see a spark while I cranked it several times. He simply removed the wire and held it close to the block. I can't vouch for proper technique but he seemed to know what he was doing and he said he did not see a spark. He reattached the wire and I began preparing for my first trip on the flatbed.
We talked for a few minutes and I went back to give it one last try. Cranked a few times with nothing and then FINALLY we heard 1 pop of compression! I put the pedal to the floor, cranked and she soon fired up. As usual I had to run the rpms for a minute before settling into 800. For those first few minutes something sounded "off" about the idle but then it settled into the usual lope. The drive home was uneventful.
Once the car is running it is generally smooth and pulls strong all the way through 6k. I have noticed some jerk and hesitation with partial acceleration from low rpm. I've read that this can be a consequence of a generous-for-motor carburetor (750 on mildly tweaked motor) with mechanical secondaries as it runs through the lower rpms at low speed and light acceleration. Initially I had attributed all to this. Now I'm wondering if these issues are related?
I don't know the condition of the plugs, wires or distributor. The wires and coil "appear" bright, shiny new and I know the previous owner had a shop do some "freshening" in recent years, so the wires can't be too old. I'm going to inspect and replace the plugs this week. With my neighbor's assistance I'm also going to check the timing and condition of the distributor.
So the fun begins...
Some follow up. The plugs were replaced 6 months ago. The MSD box, wires and Blaster coil were all installed new within the last few years. I still don't know anything about the distributor but the cap looks pretty sharp and I know the whole starting system was overhauled together 3-4 years ago.
The oem power to the ignition goes through the ignition switch. The ignition switch contacts were marginal with breaker points, an electronic ignition demands too much current for those contacts.
Over time the contacts get dirty and burned, this creates a voltage drop, which limits voltage and current to your ignition. The voltage drop across the ignition switch contacts will cause the contacts to heat up as the motor runs (current flowing through contacts) just like an electric heater. As the contacts heat up the voltage drop will get worse. Whereas a breaker point ignition will operate with low voltage (its performance will of course diminish) an electronic ignition will simply stop working when the voltage drops to a certain value.
My friend Doug's Pantera would die when he operated the power windows or turned on the headlamps. It was equipped with an MSD ignition. The fix was to install the new ignition power feed circuit that is pictured in my previous post.
There's a simple test. Get a long piece of 12 gage stranded wire & attach alligator clips on both ends. Connect one end to the positive terminal of the battery, connect the other end to supply your ignition in place of the oem ignition supply wire. Try starting the car. To turn the car off just unhook the wire from the battery terminal.
If the "jumper wire" resolves your hard starting, you've found your problem.
-G
Over time the contacts get dirty and burned, this creates a voltage drop, which limits voltage and current to your ignition. The voltage drop across the ignition switch contacts will cause the contacts to heat up as the motor runs (current flowing through contacts) just like an electric heater. As the contacts heat up the voltage drop will get worse. Whereas a breaker point ignition will operate with low voltage (its performance will of course diminish) an electronic ignition will simply stop working when the voltage drops to a certain value.
My friend Doug's Pantera would die when he operated the power windows or turned on the headlamps. It was equipped with an MSD ignition. The fix was to install the new ignition power feed circuit that is pictured in my previous post.
There's a simple test. Get a long piece of 12 gage stranded wire & attach alligator clips on both ends. Connect one end to the positive terminal of the battery, connect the other end to supply your ignition in place of the oem ignition supply wire. Try starting the car. To turn the car off just unhook the wire from the battery terminal.
If the "jumper wire" resolves your hard starting, you've found your problem.
-G
Thanks, George. I'll have to give the "jumper" a try.
Today I went out for a test run. Cold start was still okay without using the choke. I had fire immediately and just had to gas it a few times to get her started. I drove around for a good 10 minutes to get things nice and warm then parked in the garage.
I waited a few minutes and then went to re-start. Well, whatdoyaknow, started right up on the first effort. Just to press my luck I idled for a minute, turned off the ignition and immediately started again. Fired immediately. I don't believe starting has ever been that easy. I've had more trouble on a quick trip to the gas station.
I'm not sure what that means. Lend support to the heat argument, whether it be the ignition switch or a vapor lock condition?
------
George, all that in reference to the ignition switch makes sense. Would the ignition switch bypass from Pantera Electronics provide another remedy? I have considered adding PE's ATO fuse panel and the ignition bypass. The possibility of these contacts contributing to my hot start problems could jump this upgrade to the top of the list.
Today I went out for a test run. Cold start was still okay without using the choke. I had fire immediately and just had to gas it a few times to get her started. I drove around for a good 10 minutes to get things nice and warm then parked in the garage.
I waited a few minutes and then went to re-start. Well, whatdoyaknow, started right up on the first effort. Just to press my luck I idled for a minute, turned off the ignition and immediately started again. Fired immediately. I don't believe starting has ever been that easy. I've had more trouble on a quick trip to the gas station.
I'm not sure what that means. Lend support to the heat argument, whether it be the ignition switch or a vapor lock condition?
------
George, all that in reference to the ignition switch makes sense. Would the ignition switch bypass from Pantera Electronics provide another remedy? I have considered adding PE's ATO fuse panel and the ignition bypass. The possibility of these contacts contributing to my hot start problems could jump this upgrade to the top of the list.
A few questions after further thought. If voltage drop and heat at the ignition contacts were causing a starting problem through diminished or compromised performance of the breaker points, wouldn't that also effect function and performance while I'm running? After a difficult start I'm generally good to go once I'm running.
In this condition would it be possible for the starter to turn but no discharge be generated from the breaker points and thus no spark at the plug? With my last no spark episode the motor was cranking as well as ever.
Sorry if my thoughts seem disjointed. Thinking, typing and watching a crazed 15 month old is getting the better of me.
In this condition would it be possible for the starter to turn but no discharge be generated from the breaker points and thus no spark at the plug? With my last no spark episode the motor was cranking as well as ever.
Sorry if my thoughts seem disjointed. Thinking, typing and watching a crazed 15 month old is getting the better of me.
The points in your distributor are functioning as a switch to trigger the MSD module. They do not "generate a discharge". That's what the MSD module does.
The battery voltage may drop enough when the engine is cranking that the voltage applied to the MSD ignition module is at the ragged edge of the voltage necessary for the module to function, so the module stops functioning or functions intermittently. But once the motor is running, and the alternator is charging the battery, the battery voltage is higher, the voltage applied to the MSD module is also higher, explaining why the MSD ignition module will work perfectly once the motor starts.
-G
The battery voltage may drop enough when the engine is cranking that the voltage applied to the MSD ignition module is at the ragged edge of the voltage necessary for the module to function, so the module stops functioning or functions intermittently. But once the motor is running, and the alternator is charging the battery, the battery voltage is higher, the voltage applied to the MSD module is also higher, explaining why the MSD ignition module will work perfectly once the motor starts.
-G
Thanks, that makes perfect sense.
Will the ignition switch bypass from Pantera Electronics address the ignition contact issue you described above?
Will the ignition switch bypass from Pantera Electronics address the ignition contact issue you described above?
Jon's web site lists the engine ignition as one of the loads removed from the ignition switch (top of the list).
Pantera Electronics - Ignition Switch Bypass
-G
Pantera Electronics - Ignition Switch Bypass
-G
That's what I gathered from my reading but I wanted to be sure.
I'll likely add Jon's ATO fuse panel and ignition bypass in the very near future. Next I'll be considering which way to go with electronic ignition, whether to plug in one of the MSD distributors or convert to a Duraspark.
I'll likely add Jon's ATO fuse panel and ignition bypass in the very near future. Next I'll be considering which way to go with electronic ignition, whether to plug in one of the MSD distributors or convert to a Duraspark.
Just some follow up on my hot start problems.
I had noticed some serious percolation from the carb squirters and even a little from the primary vent tube after running around. This would go on for a good 5-10 minutes after turning the car off. I figured this might be contributing to my hot start problems and found that putting the pedal to the floor and clearing the pooling seemed to improve my chances of starting. From this I was concerned about heat soak and possibly a faulty needle and seat.
So I set out to make some adjustments to the carburetor. First I checked the floats with the car idling at operating temperature. The primary was a shade under a quarter turn low. I raised it. The secondary was a full half turn plus low. I raised it. I went out for a drive and had major bogging and died while rolling up on a hill. Clearly overdone. I went back on my changes by 50%.
I also noticed the accelerator pump linkage was tight with the arm just partially into it's line of travel while at rest. I loosened this just a shade.
I went out for a drive after these adjustments and all seemed well. No bogging and the slight hesitation I would have accelerating off idle was gone.
AND I've gone 4 days with NO hot start problems. I turn the key and it starts on the first or second try without fiddling with the accelerator.
I can concoct several ill-informed theories for how this may be, but I'll defer to those more informed than myself.
I had noticed some serious percolation from the carb squirters and even a little from the primary vent tube after running around. This would go on for a good 5-10 minutes after turning the car off. I figured this might be contributing to my hot start problems and found that putting the pedal to the floor and clearing the pooling seemed to improve my chances of starting. From this I was concerned about heat soak and possibly a faulty needle and seat.
So I set out to make some adjustments to the carburetor. First I checked the floats with the car idling at operating temperature. The primary was a shade under a quarter turn low. I raised it. The secondary was a full half turn plus low. I raised it. I went out for a drive and had major bogging and died while rolling up on a hill. Clearly overdone. I went back on my changes by 50%.
I also noticed the accelerator pump linkage was tight with the arm just partially into it's line of travel while at rest. I loosened this just a shade.
I went out for a drive after these adjustments and all seemed well. No bogging and the slight hesitation I would have accelerating off idle was gone.
AND I've gone 4 days with NO hot start problems. I turn the key and it starts on the first or second try without fiddling with the accelerator.
I can concoct several ill-informed theories for how this may be, but I'll defer to those more informed than myself.
I'll add that I haven't noticed any more percolation or spray from the squirters.