Help Needed - Cooling System problems

You guys have been incredibly helpful and I really appreciate all of your input and suggestions.

My coolant is 50/50 (Prestone (I NEED the anti-freeze properties here) and de-ionized water) plus Norosion. I do have the brass restrictor plate installed under the t-stat. My fans are working well and turning in the right direction (pulling air thru the rad from behind). There is a LOT of heat blowing when the car is running hot, so the rad and fans seem to be doing their jobs well. One fan is thermostatically controlled (and comes on at a gauge-indicated 180°) and the other is switched manually at the dash by me. I assume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that at highway speeds, the fans are better NOT running as they would flow air at less than the speed of travel and thus reduce effectiveness of cooling.

Here is my plan of action:

• I will put back on the new 16 lbs pressure cap since the old RC82 unit is definitely NOT holding pressure (spews coolant at the tank neck when the car is hot).

• I will check/re-rout ground connections as needed

• I have ordered an air bleeding tool (similar to the Snap-On one Mark has) to assist evacuating air:



• I will drill holes in the thermostat

• I will quadruple check all my connections for possible air leaks

• I will re-bleed the system using the GPM™ (George Pence Method ) AND the air-evac tool

• I will run the car long enough to verify if problem solved, and if not:

• I will take temp readings at various locations as recommended (I might do this even IF the problem is fixed so I have a future reference set)

• I will have the coolant tested for combustion gases (man, I don't want "positive" results for that one) which is an interesting test I had not heard of before.

If none of the above resolves the issue, I will be enjoying our nice Rocky Mountain Rumble tour from the seat of my comfy, quiet and air conditioned rental car (which I would upgrade to a Mustang from a Fusion). The other suggestions (head bleeders drilled, timing gear/tensioner/chain upgrades) will have to wait as I don't have enough time to address them before the tour.

You guys are the best!

Mark

quote:

I will have the coolant tested for combustion gases

Mark,

I may have slightly mislead you on this one. I should have said to check for combustion gasses in the "COOLING" system, not in the "coolant".

Basically, the test consists of replacing the radiator cap with a testing device. The engine is then started and run for a few minutes. I would do this first.

Check the head bolt torque on a few of the bolts that have easy access (without removing anything). Start with about 90 ft lbs and see if the bolt holds or turns.

John

Mark,

Are you using deionized water or distilled water? You may damage your radiator with deionized water as as it is hungry for ions and may attack the solder or other metals in your radiator. I once worked at a Culligan dealership and we sold deionized water to the semiconductor industry. One of our drivers topped up his radiator with our very expensive deionized water and and in a short time his radiator all but fell apart from the water attacking the solder and the copper. Maybe today's radiators are different but just a heads up.

Thanks for clarifying that John. Since at the moment I'm not getting ANY gas at the pressure tank, I'll remain cautiously optimistic that this is not the problem.

I should (and will) check the head bolt torque, but of course, by "without removing anything" you mean only removing the engine screen, upper coolant pipe, valve covers (better get new gaskets...).

Yeah, I'm being a pussy, I know. I'm just getting (and who doesn't know this feeling all too well?) tired of "fixing" and not driving!

But since I'm going to need to drain coolant again, having this input before-hand really does help me save buckets of time by doing things in a logical order.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Shadetree:
Mark,

Are you using deionized water or distilled water? You may damage your radiator with deionized water as as it is hungry for ions and may attack the solder or other metals in your radiator. I once worked at a Culligan dealership and we sold deionized water to the semiconductor industry. One of our drivers topped up his radiator with our very expensive deionized water and and in a short time his radiator all but fell apart from the water attacking the solder and the copper. Maybe today's radiators are different but just a heads up.

Hmmm. I better check that. It was sold in jugs right beside the coolant in the auto parts store, but that probably doesn't mean anything these days. Thanks for the heads-up!

Mark

quote:

I should (and will) check the head bolt torque, but of course, by "without removing anything" you mean only removing the engine screen, upper coolant pipe, valve covers (better get new gaskets...).

The smiley face tells me that you may just be joking. Soooo, just in case, just remove only the engine screen and check some of the head bolts by the the exhaust ports and spark plugs.....the easy ones.

John

Mark,

For the purposes of the RM Tour, how about draining your 50/50 mix and topping up with water plus Purple Ice or Water Wetter?

You only need antifreeze for storage over the winter, right?

Just a thought ...

EA

I agree with Shadetree re the DeI water. Do not use it. It's too aggressive.

FWIW, No-Rosion says "Do not use distilled water unless mixed with 50% antifreeze".

Don't forget to add the crank balancer/timing mark check to your list.

John

quote:

I accept that the gauges don't indicate accurate temps, but I make the assumption (yeah, I know) that it is functioning consistently and the numbers, while wrong, are relatively correct — at least as far as relative temperature changes goes.

FWIW, my stock Veglia gauge is accurate to within 2 degrees, verified multiple times with an IR temp gun on the block at the temp sender. Buy or borrow an IR temp gun to check your actual temps.

Hi Mark Just out of curiousity were the head gaskets double checked that any water jackets were not covered by the new gasket? Just wundering because if it never overheated before then backtracking everything that has been done so far might be wise.If the head gaskets are fine then I would still lean on air in the system Hope this helps

I really want to thank all of you who took the time to respond with great ideas and suggestions.

The person I owe the biggest THANK YOU to is my friend, fellow Pantera owner and expert problem-solver Bohdan G. He suggested my carb may have leaned out and wisely asked when I had last adjusted it. The answer did not impress him and he immediately came over and spent the evening helping (and teaching) me to adjust the carb. As an added measure of safety, I decided to move to a slightly cooler spark plug than I had been running (NGK UR5 from a UR4). As we were finishing up and doing some running tests, one of my fan relays started acting up causing the fans to stop working and we called it an evening.

Tonight another friend, neighbor and car-guy (who is less intimidated by volts than I am) came over to help trouble-shoot and locate a loose connection at the relay. Once all was tightened up, we went for a 45 minute drive (low and high-speed areas) and SUCCESS! The car ran like it did when I first got it. Strong and no pinging at all, even at the hottest temp. It never went over an indicated 195° on the gauge — WITHOUT using the second fan (my '71 has one switched fan, one thermostatically-controlled one). When we returned, I left both fans on and let the car sit idling for 30 minutes in my driveway and it stayed UNDER 195°.

I also took my new infrared temp sensor and found that the hottest part of my heads was 200°. My rad at the hot-in area read 193° when my gauge read just under 195° which suggests that the gauge is pretty close to accurate in my case (like Garth's).

Anyway, a HUGE thanks to everyone for their input, and ESPECIALLY Bohdan for SOLVING my conundrum.


Mark

Good news, indeed.

Is this a great group, or what?

Just curious how your car is doing after a few months after the resolution of your cooling issue.

Now I seem to have maybe the same issue. Last Friday night my car died due to a faulty coil wire. She pulls a lot stronger and has more power due to getting more spark. Now she is constantly running at the 200 mark on the gage. Should I also consider trying to richen up the mixture at this point to even the temp out? It's been in the 90's here all week. Or should I wait until I see what happens when it cools off here?

George

Everything ran great for a while and then a week later some mountain driving coincided with more climbing temps. I concluded altitude sickness was the fault but after it persisted at lower elevations for a day longer I begged for help. Fortunately for me, John Christian (master engine builder from Detroit), Mike Drew (who did not drive my car prior to it acting badly and thus could not be blamed) and several others were around to assist. John pulled my carb completely apart, checked EVERY little tube, needle, screw and passage but could find no fault. He put it back together and I went for a test drive. The problem was gone and the car had never run better. After another 1000 km of crazy driving in the mountains and back home at sea level, the car still runs great and has ZERO overheating or running issues. Whatever John did (he swears he did nothing) exorcised some demons. In fairness, on our trip several guys had rough running issues and we have concluded that we got bad 94 octane gas somewhere. We were filling up twice a day so the odds are that some crap got sucked in and stuck for a while.

In my case, the overheating was accompanied by engine pinging (which I conclude was a result of running lean), so if you're getting that when your engine is at full running temp, and your timing is verified as correct, then checking fuel/air mix might help. Although I can't be certain exactly WHAT was giving me issues, the ONLY thing that actually corrected it was messing with the carb.

Good luck George.

Mark

Hey Mark, I just found and read this entire thread.

I'd have been no help in the diagnostics, but glad the overheating has been resolved. Plus, you made several dozen worthwhile cooling mods in the process!

Glad you got to enjoy your car, the driving, some worthwhile technical input. Just adds to the camaradarie. JC Christian did some work on my car while it was at Roush. You picked some good roadmates to have nearby for troubleshooting!

Glad it worked out.

My 5-0 Pushbutton spends most of her time in the garage and sees little road time. I had to register her and took her down to get her smogged. While it ran on the smog sniffer, she overheated. I never had this problem before. Upon investigation I found that a fuse had deteriorated, it still worked intermittently but would cut off the fans when it didn't. When I checked it, the conductive parts fell off of the ceramic center. I changed all of the fuses in the block to be safe and haven't had a problem since. I remembered that Mike Drew had a similar problem.