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High Dollar Pantera market heats up...

SharkeySharkeyForum Sponsor - Pantera Miami
A few noteworthy events members should be aware of.The GT5-S in Mo sold for 150k a few weeks ago. Fair price I'd say for a car that cost 61k new. An Amerisport color change car. News flash, a 1973 GTS breaks the bank. It happened in Paris check it out, the 2015 Arterial Auction. Google it for pics/info.58,000 km car # 4864. Sitting down? 152k plus 10% fees. This a real sale for 168 grand US. Nice nice car although no show car. Ahhh, imagine Paris on a cool evening, sipping pink champagne, your GTS sitting in front of the sidewalk 'cafe. But wait the surprises get better. Finding out about this down here in SoFlo, where a half dozen Pantera are for sale & in stock, time to put the thinking cap on & hit that niche market. G.Brody is the master in advertising...blitz the European publications immediately after Paris. Offer a more refined original unmolested car for...say 200k? Lets do it. The timing couldn't be better, & the stars are aligned. Good old South Florida hits the European market with a media flash. Heres a BETTER GTS for 200k. 1974 GTS with original paint/tires/books/tools/records with only 3000 original documented miles. It just don't get any better than that for an investment car. Using that market savvy, BOOM! Knocked it out of the park, #7147 SOLD. Deal struck at 180k after inspection[s]. Paid. Gone. Japan wins! Car left in a container. In closing, these figures speak for themselves. These are no longer just a fluke sale here and there. It's getting more and more common. Pantera is a world market & South Florida sells Panteras. This is the one that broke the bank, but we have more low mile original cars. We'll set more records before 2015 ends.These high dollar examples do all the money and more, but we owners need to stick together as a group and keep the prices in the sky. It works. Remember, it only takes one guy to pull the trigger & every sale represents $$$ in every Pantera owners pocket. Keep the group effort, I'll keep moving' the cars.
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markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
The "1973 GTS" No. 4864 certainly was an impressive sale result — considering the rather interesting write up (which seems to raise some questions about the accuracy of the description) and the rather non-original state of the car. But it seems everything sells for a lot more in Europe. I know it was DeTomaso and they would do whatever a customer wanted, but what makes that car a GTS? It doesn't have the GT in the VIN as the US cars do, no dash clock, no Ghia badge in the steering wheel or the bumper. No riveted-on fender flares either. So other than the vinyl graphics and recently re-sprayed deck-lids, why is this a GTS?

For similar money, Craig Brody's 3K mile GTS is a much more honest car and while it had some paint issues, it really is a special and unique car. Worth the money too, I suspect.

If I was (like Sharkey) in the business of selling Panteras, I'd be happy with how the numbers are going, but since all this means to me is that my insurance costs keep going up, I can't say I'm all that excited about it.

Mark
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
The "1973 GTS" No. 4864 certainly was an impressive sale result — considering the rather interesting write up (which seems to raise some questions about the accuracy of the description) and the rather non-original state of the car. But it seems everything sells for a lot more in Europe. I know it was DeTomaso and they would do whatever a customer wanted, but what makes that car a GTS? It doesn't have the GT in the VIN as the US cars do, no dash clock, no Ghia badge in the steering wheel or the bumper. No riveted-on fender flares either. So other than the vinyl graphics and recently re-sprayed deck-lids, why is this a GTS?

For similar money, Craig Brody's 3K mile GTS is a much more honest car and while it had some paint issues, it really is a special and unique car. Worth the money too, I suspect.

If I was (like Sharkey) in the business of selling Panteras, I'd be happy with how the numbers are going, but since all this means to me is that my insurance costs keep going up, I can't say I'm all that excited about it.

Mark
Hello Mark; Would you be happier if your DeTomaso Pantera was depreciating & your car insurance was LESS?!.

How much has your car insurance gone up that you feel a financial strain to pay it?!

Do you also complain when you home appreciates & your home insurance goes up?!

I EASILY shoulder the cost of of a relative small increase in car insurance vs the LARGE gain in valuation of any of the 19 Sports Cars I own.

I own a 1991 Ferrari Testarossa, car has increased OVER $100.000.00 in value since my initial purchase, other cars I own, have doubled & tripled in valuation.

UNLIKE you...I'm ECSTATIC Sweet Sweet Sweet !!!...Mark
joulesjoules"Racing is Life, anything before or after is just waiting" - Steve McQueen
Maybe each persons perspective depends on why he/she owns the car(s); I.e. if they are investments, (Sharkey can be considered a short term investor) then yes the investor will be happy they appreciate and provide a good return.

I would be willing to bet that most Pantera owners are not in that category, they own them to enjoy them and as such the valuation increase is a double edged sword, at some point they become too valuable to drive for many of the people that purchased them for exactly that.

I've said it before but IMO there is also a bit of a bubble being created here, investors who see the stock market swings as more risky than old cars! Everything is worth what someone is willing to pay on the day, but do you honestly believe that your Testarossa as an auto is worth what it might fetch today? Would you buy it at today's market value?

It's easy to quote a few high $ sales and portray Pantera's are all worth that, but a statistically a valid cross section of sales is required to support what prices generally are, for every $125K sale I can point you to a $40K sale, what does that say? To me it speaks to the success of auction houses in being able to liquor up some rich guys and part them with their money, not that I have any problem with that!
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by Joules:
Maybe each persons perspective depends on why he/she owns the car(s); I.e. if they are investments, (Sharkey can be considered a short term investor) then yes the investor will be happy they appreciate and provide a good return.

I would be willing to bet that most Pantera owners are not in that category, they own them to enjoy them and as such the valuation increase is a double edged sword, at some point they become too valuable to drive for many of the people that purchased them for exactly that.

I've said it before but IMO there is also a bit of a bubble being created here, investors who see the stock market swings as more risky than old cars! Everything is worth what someone is willing to pay on the day, but do you honestly believe that your Testarossa as an auto is worth what it might fetch today? Would you buy it at today's market value?

It's easy to quote a few high $ sales and portray Pantera's are all worth that, but a statistically a valid cross section of sales is required to support what prices generally are, for every $125K sale I can point you to a $40K sale, what does that say? To me it speaks to the success of auction houses in being able to liquor up some rich guys and part them with their money, not that I have any problem with that!
Hello Joules; As with ANY investment ie: Real Estate, Sports Cars, Art, Antiques, etc, etc, a RAPID escalation in value in a truncated time frame gives the holder a two edged sword with which to yield, be it gingerly or conversely aggressively.

the questions being..."1"...Does the holder deem the item as "over valued" & sell?!
"2"...Hold with the speculation the appreciation wave will continue to build and as such..."Ride the Wave".


MANY DeTomaso Pantera owners have owned their collective Panteras for decades or more. Their initial buy in cost will NEVER fall below that point, so for them, there is ONLY an upside in regards to valuation.

In Real Estate, the time tested adage is..."Location, Location, Location.

My approach to acquiring Sports Cars is "Condition & Rarity".

In answering your question... "but do you honestly believe that your Testarossa as an auto is worth what it might fetch today? Would you buy it at today's market value?"

My answer is two-fold.

My 1991 Testarossa is the last year model before the 512 TR version, it is the highly coveted California lineage car, sold in California, has remained in California.

100 % rust-free, No accident car, ALL original body panels/paint/interior, low mileage, FAMOUS Miami Vice color scheme ( White/Tan) example.

I WOULD BUY today at it's current valuation with the caveat being..."As a long Term Investment".

In my life's experience ( I'm 57 ) investors that "wait on the fence"...FALL OFF in both directions!!!

Here's a current example.

In 2010 invested in what is referred to as a "Bulldozer Property" ( value is strictly in the land)...home is a relative "Bulldozer" in Cupertino, Ca.

Home was a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom 800 Sq Ft home on a 5,500 Sq Ft lot surrounded by $1.5 MILLION dollar homes.

Purchase price was $608,000.00.

VAST percentage of "Real Estate Experts" thought that $608,000.00 was still OVER PRICED!

I followed my own instincts & previous real estate experiences...

TODAY that "Bulldozer" is...wait for it.......1.3 MILLION!!!

So those "Expert" & "Fence Sitters" are...Crying in their collective COLD soup! & I'm sipping Vintage French champagne!

Have I made some "POOR" investments???!!...does marriage count???!!! Sympathy Sympathy Sympathy

To the owners that are afraid to drive their DeTomaso Panteras because of the value & chance of an accident, I ask this question???!!

Did you STOP having sex because your penis might break???!!! Bravo First Place
S simonMember
quote:
Originally posted by Joules:

It's easy to quote a few high $ sales and portray Pantera's are all worth that, but a statistically a valid cross section of sales is required to support what prices generally are, for every $125K sale I can point you to a $40K sale, what does that say? To me it speaks to the success of auction houses in being able to liquor up some rich guys and part them with their money, not that I have any problem with that!


I totally agree whit Joules, the expensive Pantera's into Europe are for a long time for sale ,and you see they take them off the market and come back whit a higher asking price.(also no sale on those)
Higer prices do not say a better condition.
For the early (1971-74) cars is a market for under $65k , for GT5-s are other price's
GT5's are also not sell for high prices , not much people like the gleu on fiberglass extensions.
The taste into Europe is also different on the Repro cars , mostly they want it stock and original.
Thats why original low miles cars bring good money.
But cars whit work bring much less money.
Also the reputation on restored American cars is bad into Europe ,we have here a much higher standard.
Car dealers are Always say that classic cars go up ,and there is coming on a big market into China ,but dont forget People from China have no motering history like us.
No posters from a Countach on there sleeping room when they are young.
there are a few Chinese investors who invest into special classic cars.

The good thing is that Pantera's are go slowly up , that means that when you bought a Pantera for the hobby, you MAYBE get your ,,investment" back.
But most the important thing is ENJOY YOUR HOBBY CAR .
Simon
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Joules:


It's easy to quote a few high $ sales and portray Pantera's are all worth that, but a statistically a valid cross section of sales is required to support what prices generally are, for every $125K sale I can point you to a $40K sale, what does that say? To me it speaks to the success of auction houses in being able to liquor up some rich guys and part them with their money, not that I have any problem with that!


There IS something going on here. It is more evident with the Mangustas though. That is a car that went from $40k to somewhere around $300k seemingly overnight.

It doesn't matter which market fuels the feeding frenzy, if that is what's happening.

Europe and the US have often been the stimulus in many types of markets for each other before.

Japan at one time fueled it as well?


I think it is more than just a couple of Panteras that have been reported to have been sold at over the $125,000 market recently.

I have to consider that a trend, and a trend that is rising at a significant rate.

The only thing that is debatable about it is what the rate of increase is now.


In all considerations the general economies of the US and Europe are fragile but showing growth. The difficulty is in analyzing the segments that are experiencing growth accurately.

The Detomaso market is so relatively small that it may be attracting both enthusiast and investors now simply because there are those that are EXPECTING the values to double, triple or more, if not now, eventually.

They don't want to get locked out of a "Cobra-ish" market where the car went from $40,000 to a million in only a few years.

There is more than possibility in the Detomaso market for that to happen.

Snicker at that remark as you will but I personally know of Cobras that were sold at $10,000 because the owner could never conceive of a bucket of bolts like a Cobra ever being a valuable asset.

Shelby once said in regards to the quality of the car, "it was made by a wine-o under the London Bridge".



Smart money is to buy in now as well as you can. The $125,000 cars are just the nibbling on the fisherman's line. The fish are trying not to attract too much attention right now, but apparently they are there.

Just like "JAWS". Listen for the music. That's the only way you can tell when the big fish is there. You can't see him. Wink
S simonMember
offcourse , I hope my car is rising , but you must are realistic too.
Alway's they are reference too the European market,but when you follow this you see the most expensive early cars are not sell for the asking price.
Than there is the problem that there are a lot of technical and optical isseus on cars from the States
The car dealers into Germany must sell those cars whit a warranty.
thats why they also must sell the cars for much more than into The States.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
When comparing current sales prices, keep in mind that the Euro-GTS model was the std narrow-body over there from '71 through about 1988, with the added possibility of anything in the GTS/Gr-3 OR Gr-4 catalogues the owner may have wanted to have factory-added. So those cars are often heavily FACTORY-optioned; not possible in the U.S. The term 'Stradale' comes to mind.

The 138 U.S-spec GTS cars with their decals & badges were a pale shadow to the typical Euro- GTS model, and prices seem to reflect that.
markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
quote:
Would you be happier if your DeTomaso Pantera was depreciating & your car insurance was LESS?!.
I wouldn't care because I own my cars for my enjoyment, not as an investment.

quote:
How much has your car insurance gone up that you feel a financial strain to pay it?!
Did I say it was a strain? It isn't. I just get more joy from spending my cash on new parts to improve my cars than for higher insurance premiums.

quote:
Do you also complain when you home appreciates & your home insurance goes up?!
I didn't complain actually, I said " I can't say I'm all that excited". My house insurance also goes up almost every year and that doesn't excite me either. It would if I was an insurance salesman though.

quote:
I EASILY shoulder the cost of of a relative small increase in car insurance vs the LARGE gain in valuation of any of the 19 Sports Cars I own.
I too can "shoulder" the cost but the "LARGE gain" is intangible and irrelevant (to me). The benefit of my insurance is to make me whole in the case of loss or damage to one of my cars. Rising prices just mean it will cost more to replace like with like in the event of a claim.

quote:
I own a 1991 Ferrari Testarossa, car has increased OVER $100.000.00 in value since my initial purchase, other cars I own, have doubled & tripled in valuation.
So? I own a Mangusta that I bought 10 years ago for a small fraction of its current "value". It's not relevant because I have no desire or intention of selling it. But as Julian astutely noted, "they become too valuable to drive for many of the people that purchased them for exactly that." The unfortunate result is beautiful cars end up in museums not on roads.


quote:
UNLIKE you...I'm ECSTATIC Sweet Sweet Sweet !!!...Mark
I'm happy that you're happy. As an investor in cars you should be happy. As a driver, I am too. Just maybe a bit less so. Then again, maybe more so.

Mark
joulesjoules"Racing is Life, anything before or after is just waiting" - Steve McQueen
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello Joules; As with ANY investment ie: Real Estate, Sports Cars, Art, Antiques, etc, etc, a RAPID escalation in value in a truncated time frame gives the holder a two edged sword with which to yield, be it gingerly or conversely aggressively.

the questions being..."1"...Does the holder deem the item as "over valued" & sell?!
"2"...Hold with the speculation the appreciation wave will continue to build and as such..."Ride the Wave".


MANY DeTomaso Pantera owners have owned their collective Panteras for decades or more. Their initial buy in cost will NEVER fall below that point, so for them, there is ONLY an upside in regards to valuation.

In Real Estate, the time tested adage is..."Location, Location, Location.

My approach to acquiring Sports Cars is "Condition & Rarity".

In answering your question... "but do you honestly believe that your Testarossa as an auto is worth what it might fetch today? Would you buy it at today's market value?"

My answer is two-fold.

My 1991 Testarossa is the last year model before the 512 TR version, it is the highly coveted California lineage car, sold in California, has remained in California.

100 % rust-free, No accident car, ALL original body panels/paint/interior, low mileage, FAMOUS Miami Vice color scheme ( White/Tan) example.

I WOULD BUY today at it's current valuation with the caveat being..."As a long Term Investment".

In my life's experience ( I'm 57 ) investors that "wait on the fence"...FALL OFF in both directions!!!

Here's a current example.

In 2010 invested in what is referred to as a "Bulldozer Property" ( value is strictly in the land)...home is a relative "Bulldozer" in Cupertino, Ca.

Home was a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom 800 Sq Ft home on a 5,500 Sq Ft lot surrounded by $1.5 MILLION dollar homes.

Purchase price was $608,000.00.

VAST percentage of "Real Estate Experts" thought that $608,000.00 was still OVER PRICED!

I followed my own instincts & previous real estate experiences...

TODAY that "Bulldozer" is...wait for it.......1.3 MILLION!!!

So those "Expert" & "Fence Sitters" are...Crying in their collective COLD soup! & I'm sipping Vintage French champagne!

Have I made some "POOR" investments???!!...does marriage count???!!! Sympathy Sympathy Sympathy

To the owners that are afraid to drive their DeTomaso Panteras because of the value & chance of an accident, I ask this question???!!

Did you STOP having sex because your penis might break???!!! Bravo First Place


Mark,

I congratulate you on your investment prowess, very astute but therein I think is the difference in some of our opinion and thinking, you are first and foremost an investor, second a car guy and maybe only then as the 'commodity' is offering good returns. Most others here and that I have met in the De Tomaso community are simply car guys, the thrill of the drive and camaraderie provides far greater returns than money alone can offer.

We all reach the same destination where the value of our cars won't matter, but the journey's a lot more fun driving a De Tomaso

Julian
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by Joules:
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello Joules; As with ANY investment ie: Real Estate, Sports Cars, Art, Antiques, etc, etc, a RAPID escalation in value in a truncated time frame gives the holder a two edged sword with which to yield, be it gingerly or conversely aggressively.

the questions being..."1"...Does the holder deem the item as "over valued" & sell?!
"2"...Hold with the speculation the appreciation wave will continue to build and as such..."Ride the Wave".


MANY DeTomaso Pantera owners have owned their collective Panteras for decades or more. Their initial buy in cost will NEVER fall below that point, so for them, there is ONLY an upside in regards to valuation.

In Real Estate, the time tested adage is..."Location, Location, Location.

My approach to acquiring Sports Cars is "Condition & Rarity".

In answering your question... "but do you honestly believe that your Testarossa as an auto is worth what it might fetch today? Would you buy it at today's market value?"

My answer is two-fold.

My 1991 Testarossa is the last year model before the 512 TR version, it is the highly coveted California lineage car, sold in California, has remained in California.

100 % rust-free, No accident car, ALL original body panels/paint/interior, low mileage, FAMOUS Miami Vice color scheme ( White/Tan) example.

I WOULD BUY today at it's current valuation with the caveat being..."As a long Term Investment".

In my life's experience ( I'm 57 ) investors that "wait on the fence"...FALL OFF in both directions!!!

Here's a current example.

In 2010 invested in what is referred to as a "Bulldozer Property" ( value is strictly in the land)...home is a relative "Bulldozer" in Cupertino, Ca.

Home was a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom 800 Sq Ft home on a 5,500 Sq Ft lot surrounded by $1.5 MILLION dollar homes.

Purchase price was $608,000.00.

VAST percentage of "Real Estate Experts" thought that $608,000.00 was still OVER PRICED!

I followed my own instincts & previous real estate experiences...

TODAY that "Bulldozer" is...wait for it.......1.3 MILLION!!!

So those "Expert" & "Fence Sitters" are...Crying in their collective COLD soup! & I'm sipping Vintage French champagne!

Have I made some "POOR" investments???!!...does marriage count???!!! Sympathy Sympathy Sympathy

To the owners that are afraid to drive their DeTomaso Panteras because of the value & chance of an accident, I ask this question???!!

Did you STOP having sex because your penis might break???!!! Bravo First Place


Mark,

I congratulate you on your investment prowess, very astute but therein I think is the difference in some of our opinion and thinking, you are first and foremost an investor, second a car guy and maybe only then as the 'commodity' is offering good returns. Most others here and that I have met in the De Tomaso community are simply car guys, the thrill of the drive and camaraderie provides far greater returns than money alone can offer.

We all reach the same destination where the value of our cars won't matter, but the journey's a lot more fun driving a De Tomaso

Julian
Hello Julian; I'm first & foremost a "Car Guy", as my busted knuckles, greasy overalls & an over 40 year collection of automotive tools & equipment would attest too.

I do readily admit to acquiring various Sports Cars with an eye towards possible appreciation, but NEVER secondary to the driving experience & enjoyment of the specific Sports Car.

I'm interested in resurrecting "Barn Finds".

I purposefully look for Sports Cars that have been stored, hidden from view for decades.

I've spends weeks just filling cylinder walls of frozen engines with a mixture of transmission fluid & acetone hoping to free an engine that hasn't turned in 2-3 decades.

An "investor" as you falsely perceive myself as, Would be instantly financially UPSIDE DOWN on the value of the car, if as an "investor" I had to pay a shop to restore these "Barn Finds".

For myself it's a sense of Pride & Self-Gratification to bring a Sports Car..."Back to Life"!!! & brings myself MUCH closer to intimately knowing the idiosyncrasies and nuances of the individual car/s that I have restored.

I've spent enough time around self anointed "Car Guys" ( Ferrari owners especially) that upon opening the bonnet, couldn't tell you to save their collective lives where the oil dip stick is...

Quick story...A few years ago I was invited as a guest of Ferrari/Maserati of Silicone Valley to attend the Ferrari 360 Challenge series with FULL ACCESS passes.

LOTS OF HUGE $$$$$$!!!! walking around as owners that pay for ownership into the 360 Challenge Series are in the financial 1% club.

I drove my 1991 Testarossa that has some serious engine modifications of my own design & fabrication.

I had the rear deck lid open when a gentlemen started to ask about some of my modifications as the gentle told me that he also owned a Testarossa but that mine..."SURE didn't sound like his"...I enjoy talking cars/engines & I explained the mods I had done.

So I asked..."Are you enjoying the race"?

To which he replied..."I would if my 360 was running better"!!!

So the guy I was talking to, is an owner & participant of the Ferrari 360 Challenge Series.

Now I'm curious, So I ask..."What's the rev limiter set at on your engine?!"

Guy without blinking an eye replies..." I DON'T KNOW!...When the red light ( shift indicator) comes on...I SHIFT!!!"

So here's a multi-multi Millionaire with enough disposable income to spend a MILLION a YEAR to be part of the 360 Challenge Series...BUT has NO CLUE what RPM the rev limiter is set at!!!

I would state that amongst "Collectable" Sports Cars that DeTomaso Pantera owners have the greatest perpencity to modify their cars for performance & handling gains with relative little regard to affecting value.

I'm currently cutting the front of the rear wheels wells to install brake cooling ducts.

I personally didn't think whether I was affecting the valuation of the Pantera with this modification ( NOT something an INVESTOR would do!!!) I was thinking about the added performance benefit of NOT having brake fade going into Andretti Hairpin ( turn 2) at Laguna Seca!!!

PLUS "I" feel the cooling scoops flow seamlessly into the body in the style of a Lamborghini Miura...Mark

http://www.jams.elb.vectranet.pl/miura/3fin.jpg
M marsredMember
"Value" seems like a double-edged sword.

quote:
"they become too valuable to drive for many of the people that purchased them for exactly that." The unfortunate result is beautiful cars end up in museums not on roads.


A local fellow who imported Panteras 'back in the day', sold his LeMans winning GT40 a couple years ago and (to my amazement)shared his reason/s for selling it with me.

He told me that he'd raced the car for about 5 yrs. when he'd first gotten it, but then decided it was too valuable to take those kinds of chances with. Then every year, someone would make him an offer, and they always kept going up.

Toward the end, he found that he couldn't sleep at night if there was bad weather predicted or the car was out at a show, etc.

He also was not growing any younger, and the market for that car was really small. He knew that if he died, the IRS would come around wanting their share pronto, and that his family would be forced to sell the car. The few people who could afford the car would realize it was a 'fire sale' and would offer them less for it.

To me, those seemed like relevant thoughts about the "value" of a vehicle. When I first bought my car, I drove it like it was stolen. Now I'm a lot more respectful of the old girl.

I won't know what my car is truly worth until I sell it. At that time, I'll undoubtedly want it to be worth as much as possible.

Until then, I hope I it doesn't appreciate so dramatically that I can't bring myself to drive it. I didn't buy it to decorate my garage.
M marsredMember
Sorry to continue to hijack this, but...

Here's a video of George's shop. I know at least one of you have been there: https://vimeo.com/23947447

He told me that the Bentley and the Audi in the video were taken in partial trade for the GT40.

Of particular note (to the present crowd) are the 'bundle of snakes' exhaust from when George raced a Pantera. Look closely...

To my knowledge, George still drives all of his cars.

Here's the GT40: http://www.shelbyamericancolle...llection/p1046.shtml
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by MarsRed:
Sorry to continue to hijack this, but...

Here's a video of George's shop. I know at least one of you have been there: https://vimeo.com/23947447

He told me that the Bentley and the Audi in the video were taken in partial trade for the GT40.

Of particular note (to the present crowd) are the 'bundle of snakes' exhaust from when George raced a Pantera. Look closely...

To my knowledge, George still drives all of his cars.

Here's the GT40: http://www.shelbyamericancolle...llection/p1046.shtml
Thanks for sharing the video of George's collection!

The "1" correction I will make is that "Ultra RARE" cars such as a Le Mans winning GT40, their prices are NOT affected whether the owner is alive or sold by one's heirs.

As a statement of FACT, Ultra RARE cars that come out of renowned owner's private collections actually garner MORE at auction as their ownership adds additional provenance & subsequently greater valuation.

Not to be morbid, but Ultra RARE car collectors are quite aware of older gentlemen's car collections & their "Time Left"...Mark
plt-1plt-1Member
I only just recently raised my insured agreed value to $70K. Although I have only been driving my car two or three times a week lately, I drove it every single day for about the last five years. I must say, I think I enjoyed the car more when it was a $40K ol' sports car that was sorta' my secret. Now the cars are getting press, I see them in commercials and on TV shows and it seems more people know our secret. I already miss the good ol' days...
D delgatoMember
Here is a different perspective.

This is my own opinion from a non owner. So take it for what it is.


A bit over 3 years ago I decided that I wanted a Pantera. So much so, that I was willing to sell off everything I owned. Decades of collecting, hard work, and dreams massed up an approximate value of 30K+ in stuff.

At that time (3-4 years ago) you could get a very decent driving car for that. In addition to that I found many solid project cars in the 20K range some even less.

So finally I did manage to sell all my stuff and ended up getting less than I wanted for it, such as life. This was about a year ago. So in that short amount of time prices seemed to about double. Project cars where starting around 30K and decent drivers about 40K+. I got completely priced out.


Cats on this and other forums would be very supportive to wannabe owners and say very encouraging things like "Just keep on saving up. It might take a while but you will get there."

So lets look into that in today"s market. How long would it take to save up to buy a Pantera? We will pretend that it is possible for me to save up 1K a month. How long would it take? You may say 4 - 5 years and your good to go. However, if values continue like they are, in 4 - 5 years I would maybe be only half way there for the same car. Then to continue on to another 4 - 5 years to still only be at 75% of current values, and so on and so on. Sure at some point it would level out and maybe in12 years from now I could get a Pantera. All of this assumes saving $1000.00 a month. That is not even close to possible for me at this time in my life.



Another option is to finance a car. I did look into this. It would lock in the current pricing, plus interest of course. However, I not a fan of debt. It is one thing to save for a decade. It is another thing entirely to be in debt for a decade.

I could go on for days about the many reasons why the Pantera is awesome. One thing that was a bit of a surprise is how awesome the other owners are. This forum is a great testament to that. In addition to the local chapter here, shout out to Great lakes Panteras. You cats are so nice, and so helpful, and full of so much knowledge and wisdom that I read this forum regularly still even though I may never get a Pantera. A lot of the other fancy marque clubs do not have the same kind of folks in them as found here.

Sharkey states "we owners need to stick together as a group and keep the prices in the sky. It works." He is right about that. The question is, who's buying? It probably will not be a guy like me with the love and passion for the car, the history, the story, etc.... I will simply be who's pockets are the deepest.

Again, Sharkey is correct, you as owners can dictate the values. In addition to that, with all due respect, you as owners are responsible for the marque. It has been your hard work, energy, love and passion that has kept this brand stronger than ever 40+ years later. The Pantera has typically been cited as the super car for the working man. Is that how you want it to continue to be? That is up to you all as owners.

Here is a couple rhetorical questions for you cats.

Most of you bought a car a while ago when prices where far lower. Could you afford the current buy in prices today?

I know most all of you cats would never sell your car. If you did, would you sell to the highest bidder or take less to sell it to a real enthusiast?


Please don't misunderstand me here. I am not saying this to have a pity party for myself. In fact I will benefit from rising car values. My story ends (or begins) with me taking all that money I had and putting most all of it down on a house. I took the very little left over and bought a POS stainless steel rust bucket to put in my new garage. This project will be sucking my time and money for years to come. I do love this car, but it is no Pantera.

Sorry for the long rant but this has been on my mind for a while now.
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by delgato:
Here is a different perspective.

This is my own opinion from a non owner. So take it for what it is.


A bit over 3 years ago I decided that I wanted a Pantera. So much so, that I was willing to sell off everything I owned. Decades of collecting, hard work, and dreams massed up an approximate value of 30K+ in stuff.

At that time (3-4 years ago) you could get a very decent driving car for that. In addition to that I found many solid project cars in the 20K range some even less.

So finally I did manage to sell all my stuff and ended up getting less than I wanted for it, such as life. This was about a year ago. So in that short amount of time prices seemed to about double. Project cars where starting around 30K and decent drivers about 40K+. I got completely priced out.


Cats on this and other forums would be very supportive to wannabe owners and say very encouraging things like "Just keep on saving up. It might take a while but you will get there."

So lets look into that in today"s market. How long would it take to save up to buy a Pantera? We will pretend that it is possible for me to save up 1K a month. How long would it take? You may say 4 - 5 years and your good to go. However, if values continue like they are, in 4 - 5 years I would maybe be only half way there for the same car. Then to continue on to another 4 - 5 years to still only be at 75% of current values, and so on and so on. Sure at some point it would level out and maybe in12 years from now I could get a Pantera. All of this assumes saving $1000.00 a month. That is not even close to possible for me at this time in my life.



Another option is to finance a car. I did look into this. It would lock in the current pricing, plus interest of course. However, I not a fan of debt. It is one thing to save for a decade. It is another thing entirely to be in debt for a decade.

I could go on for days about the many reasons why the Pantera is awesome. One thing that was a bit of a surprise is how awesome the other owners are. This forum is a great testament to that. In addition to the local chapter here, shout out to Great lakes Panteras. You cats are so nice, and so helpful, and full of so much knowledge and wisdom that I read this forum regularly still even though I may never get a Pantera. A lot of the other fancy marque clubs do not have the same kind of folks in them as found here.

Sharkey states "we owners need to stick together as a group and keep the prices in the sky. It works." He is right about that. The question is, who's buying? It probably will not be a guy like me with the love and passion for the car, the history, the story, etc.... I will simply be who's pockets are the deepest.

Again, Sharkey is correct, you as owners can dictate the values. In addition to that, with all due respect, you as owners are responsible for the marque. It has been your hard work, energy, love and passion that has kept this brand stronger than ever 40+ years later. The Pantera has typically been cited as the super car for the working man. Is that how you want it to continue to be? That is up to you all as owners.

Here is a couple rhetorical questions for you cats.

Most of you bought a car a while ago when prices where far lower. Could you afford the current buy in prices today?

I know most all of you cats would never sell your car. If you did, would you sell to the highest bidder or take less to sell it to a real enthusiast?


Please don't misunderstand me here. I am not saying this to have a pity party for myself. In fact I will benefit from rising car values. My story ends (or begins) with me taking all that money I had and putting most all of it down on a house. I took the very little left over and bought a POS stainless steel rust bucket to put in my new garage. This project will be sucking my time and money for years to come. I do love this car, but it is no Pantera.

Sorry for the long rant but this has been on my mind for a while now.
Hello Delgato; Prior to offering some sound advice ( with inflation calculation my 3.55812 "2 cents").

I need some background history...

"1"...What is the "Rust Bucket" you are currently working on? you mentioned "Stainless Steel"...A Delorean perchance?! Sympathy Sympathy Sympathy
"2"...Have you amassed enough tangible appreciation in your home to qualify for a home equity line of credit?...Mark
M marsredMember
1Rocketship,
Those were George's words about value while alive v. later, not mine.
They may be more reflective of his financial status and attitudes than value in general. I can't say.

Delgato,

quote:
Most of you bought a car a while ago when prices where far lower. Could you afford the current buy in prices today?

I know most all of you cats would never sell your car. If you did, would you sell to the highest bidder or take less to sell it to a real enthusiast?



Probably. But my situation has changed. I'm no longer able to work (physically) and don't get any disability, so much less income to speak of. It would be more difficult, but not impossible. Certainly my priorities have changed.

Unless the high bid was substantially higher than an enthusiast was able to pay, I'd be okay with selling it for a bit less if it went to someone who'd do right by it. I've done it before.
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by MarsRed:
1Rocketship,
Those were George's words about value while alive v. later, not mine.
They may be more reflective of his financial status and attitudes than value in general. I can't say.

Delgato,

quote:
Most of you bought a car a while ago when prices where far lower. Could you afford the current buy in prices today?

I know most all of you cats would never sell your car. If you did, would you sell to the highest bidder or take less to sell it to a real enthusiast?



Probably. But my situation has changed. I'm no longer able to work (physically) and don't get any disability, so much less income to speak of. It would be more difficult, but not impossible. Certainly my priorities have changed.

Unless the high bid was substantially higher than an enthusiast was able to pay, I'd be okay with selling it for a bit less if it went to someone who'd do right by it. I've done it before.
Hello MarsRed; Being that EVERY "1" of George's car's are Ultra Rare/Rare, George's attitude about the GT40 being viewed as a short sale due to his death would also apply to EVERYONE of George's other Ultra Rare/Rare Sports Cars & that SURLY is NOT the case.

IF I might respectfully inquire...How did you meet George?...Did you rub fenders whilst George was in his GT40 & you were racing your Lola T70 Coupe??! ...Mark
M marsredMember
Mark,

You may well be right. I'm only repeating things.

I wish! I'd love to go wheel to wheel against George in just about anything. But no, I'm not in that league.

George and I are sort of neighbors. A few miles apart, but out in the country. He was importing Panteras when I was a kid, so I've been aware of him, like, forever. He was the first guy I called when I started shopping for my Pantera.

But we really got to know one another during a fight with our DOT over some ex-Swiss Army Pinzgauer trucks we both own. He was the first guy I called then too. That began over 8 years ago, and a lot of water went under that bridge, but we won in the end.

He's a really nice guy, and I've felt quite privileged to know him and visit his cars.

Paul
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by MarsRed:
Mark,

You may well be right. I'm only repeating things.

I wish! I'd love to go wheel to wheel against George in just about anything. But no, I'm not in that league.

George and I are sort of neighbors. A few miles apart, but out in the country. He was importing Panteras when I was a kid, so I've been aware of him, like, forever. He was the first guy I called when I started shopping for my Pantera.

But we really got to know one another during a fight with our DOT over some ex-Swiss Army Pinzgauer trucks we both own. He was the first guy I called then too. That began over 8 years ago, and a lot of water went under that bridge, but we won in the end.

He's a really nice guy, and I've felt quite privileged to know him and visit his cars.

Paul
Hello Paul; Were you trying to register the Pinzgauer trucks for public road useage?

DOT is an acronym for "Department of Torture" as I'm SURE you & George experienced.

I guarantee just "1" issue was bumper height off road surface!!!

Do you Walleye fish?...possibly a Lindy rig with a leech?

Paul...Sent you a PM...Mark
rockyrockyMember
To get back to Delgato's comment - I may have just been lucky to buy when I did (Sept., 2012), and at these prices, I would likely not be able to be a buyer today.

I know of a couple of cars that seem like they are for sale due to the price increase, and have heard of a couple of cars that are popping out of long-term storage (probably for the same reasons) and have sold.

I am a little leery of such rapid price accelerations. I moved into a neighborhood in Palmdale CA in '~92 where everyone was "upside down" (after a CA housing crash), and saw the same thing in 2001 and subsequently a couple of years later. I have seen the Internet bubbles burst, and the stock market "corrections".*

I would suggest that the current market is making dramatic changes in Pantera ownership - for better or worse, it is hard for me to say.

Rocky

* P.S. I recognize the long term trend (stock market, housing prices, ??) is generally "up"... so if you are a "buy and hold" guy, you should be able to easily weather the market cycles and corrections......... except if I were to add up all these receipts I have in my envelope! Eeker
V vyprgt2Member
quote:
1974 GTS with original paint/tires/books/tools/records with only 3000 original documented miles. It just don't get any better than that for an investment car. Using that market savvy, BOOM! Knocked it out of the park, #7147 SOLD. Deal struck at 180k after inspection[s]. Paid. Gone. Japan wins! Car left in a container. In closing, these figures speak for themselves. These are no longer just a fluke sale here


Yes, but how many Panteras are there in existence like this = it sounds incredible. Maybe 5?

Much like the Mangustas rarity, rarity makes this Pantera worth much more.
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by vyprgt2:
quote:
1974 GTS with original paint/tires/books/tools/records with only 3000 original documented miles. It just don't get any better than that for an investment car. Using that market savvy, BOOM! Knocked it out of the park, #7147 SOLD. Deal struck at 180k after inspection[s]. Paid. Gone. Japan wins! Car left in a container. In closing, these figures speak for themselves. These are no longer just a fluke sale here


Yes, but how many Panteras are there in existence like this = it sounds incredible. Maybe 5?

Much like the Mangustas rarity, rarity makes this Pantera worth much more.
EXACTLY!!!...One must NEVER use an "Anomaly" ( As this Time Capsule 1974 GTS IS) as a barometer/gauge of current valuations!!! unless of course there is an ulterior motive for fanning the flames of the High Priced anomaly...Mark
gilles027gilles027Member
White 5000 mls time capsule on ebay reached $90.099 today, reserve not met, so not sold.

Remember the same car getting not much more then some $50.000 on ebay months ago.
So prices and the will of people to pay these kinda bills go definitly up.

Glad I bought my laser straight yellow car a year ago for the half of this money. Lucky guy.

If you ask me if I would buy the yellow one for let's say 80 grant now. Well maybe yes but this would really stress my bank account.
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
quote:
Originally posted by vyprgt2:
quote:
1974 GTS with original paint/tires/books/tools/records with only 3000 original documented miles. It just don't get any better than that for an investment car. Using that market savvy, BOOM! Knocked it out of the park, #7147 SOLD. Deal struck at 180k after inspection[s]. Paid. Gone. Japan wins! Car left in a container. In closing, these figures speak for themselves. These are no longer just a fluke sale here


Yes, but how many Panteras are there in existence like this = it sounds incredible. Maybe 5?

Much like the Mangustas rarity, rarity makes this Pantera worth much more.
EXACTLY!!!...One must NEVER use an "Anomaly" ( As this Time Capsule 1974 GTS IS) as a barometer/gauge of current valuations!!! unless of course there is an ulterior motive for fanning the flames of the High Priced anomaly...Mark


You only know if it is an anomaly if it does not repeat itself? But then is it an anomaly of two, then three?

There is a certain degree of will that creates value. Stock market is a good example.

Perception of value of the stock drives demand for it up.

We have a growing perception of value here. A perception that the car is undervalued and it is creating desirability OR buy it now or forever be not able to afford one?
accobraaccobraMember
I would have to agree that something is fishy .. the large auction houses .. when following my 2nd love .. BOSS 302's I have seen cars resurface for many times their original auction price ... then disappear and reappear again a year or two later.

With Pantera's like any other optioned cars GTS, EURO GTS, GR4 GT5 GT5S .. they will sell for more money.

As others have said ... I'm not in it for the money, but it seems when the values rise, so does interest in a certain marque which like anything else ... might be the time to restore it to its Original Showroom Condition ... and thats my next project for 9138.

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R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
quote:
Originally posted by vyprgt2:
quote:
1974 GTS with original paint/tires/books/tools/records with only 3000 original documented miles. It just don't get any better than that for an investment car. Using that market savvy, BOOM! Knocked it out of the park, #7147 SOLD. Deal struck at 180k after inspection[s]. Paid. Gone. Japan wins! Car left in a container. In closing, these figures speak for themselves. These are no longer just a fluke sale here


Yes, but how many Panteras are there in existence like this = it sounds incredible. Maybe 5?

Much like the Mangustas rarity, rarity makes this Pantera worth much more.
EXACTLY!!!...One must NEVER use an "Anomaly" ( As this Time Capsule 1974 GTS IS) as a barometer/gauge of current valuations!!! unless of course there is an ulterior motive for fanning the flames of the High Priced anomaly...Mark


You only know if it is an anomaly if it does not repeat itself? But then is it an anomaly of two, then three?

There is a certain degree of will that creates value. Stock market is a good example.

Perception of value of the stock drives demand for it up.

We have a growing perception of value here. A perception that the car is undervalued and it is creating desirability OR buy it now or forever be not able to afford one?
Based on the definition of "Anomaly" a·nom·a·ly
əˈnäməlē/Submit
noun
1.
something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected.
"there are a number of anomalies in the present system"
synonyms: oddity, peculiarity, abnormality, irregularity, inconsistency, incongruity, aberration, quirk, rarity
"the growth on the duck's bill is a harmless anomaly

There is not a numerical set point of which the word "anomaly" becomes invalid.


I used it specifically in regards to the this example...1974 GTS with original paint/tires/books/tools/records with only 3000 original documented miles.

Few would argue/dispute with any degree of intelligence, that a 41 YEAR OLD Sports Car that was intentionally built to be DRIVEN, yet having ONLY 3,000 miles is the quintessential definition of the word "Anomaly".

As per another example...In 1973 there were 35,439 Mach 1 Mustangs built.

As per Marti report I own a "1" of "1" 1973 Mach 1 Mustang.

"1" out of 35,439 is definitely an Anomaly!!!

Without question & beyond reproach...The most recent purposefully created anomalies are the high percentage of ULTRA LOW mileage Ford GT.

A higher degree of Ford GTs were specifically purchased by INVESTORS...NOT to be driven then any modern Sports Cars of recent memory.

In FACT the GULF paint scheme is worth an additional $100,000.00 MORE than an exact example only difference being the paint!

I was recently at a Ford Dealership in Silicone Valley purchasing a few Ford parts.

Asked the sales manager if he had every driven a customer's Ford GT?

He replied...ALL the Ford GTs come in for service on a car hauler...get serviced...get placed back on the car hauler & transported back to the owner's home/s.

Basically a "Static Investment" much like a Vermeer painting hanging on a wall, or a Alberto Giacometti's sculpture resting atop a Louis XIII Style Pantalonnière...( where is the pinkie in the air icon?!)Mark
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
quote:
Originally posted by vyprgt2:
quote:
1974 GTS with original paint/tires/books/tools/records with only 3000 original documented miles. It just don't get any better than that for an investment car. Using that market savvy, BOOM! Knocked it out of the park, #7147 SOLD. Deal struck at 180k after inspection[s]. Paid. Gone. Japan wins! Car left in a container. In closing, these figures speak for themselves. These are no longer just a fluke sale here


Yes, but how many Panteras are there in existence like this = it sounds incredible. Maybe 5?

Much like the Mangustas rarity, rarity makes this Pantera worth much more.
EXACTLY!!!...One must NEVER use an "Anomaly" ( As this Time Capsule 1974 GTS IS) as a barometer/gauge of current valuations!!! unless of course there is an ulterior motive for fanning the flames of the High Priced anomaly...Mark


You only know if it is an anomaly if it does not repeat itself? But then is it an anomaly of two, then three?

There is a certain degree of will that creates value. Stock market is a good example.

Perception of value of the stock drives demand for it up.

We have a growing perception of value here. A perception that the car is undervalued and it is creating desirability OR buy it now or forever be not able to afford one?
Based on the definition of "Anomaly" a·nom·a·ly
əˈnäməlē/Submit
noun
1.
something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected.
"there are a number of anomalies in the present system"
synonyms: oddity, peculiarity, abnormality, irregularity, inconsistency, incongruity, aberration, quirk, rarity
"the growth on the duck's bill is a harmless anomaly

There is not a numerical set point of which the word "anomaly" becomes invalid.


I used it specifically in regards to the this example...1974 GTS with original paint/tires/books/tools/records with only 3000 original documented miles.

Few would argue/dispute with any degree of intelligence, that a 41 YEAR OLD Sports Car that was intentionally built to be DRIVEN, yet having ONLY 3,000 miles is the quintessential definition of the word "Anomaly".

As per another example...In 1973 there were 35,439 Mach 1 Mustangs built.

As per Marti report I own a "1" of "1" 1973 Mach 1 Mustang.

"1" out of 35,439 is definitely an Anomaly!!!

Without question & beyond reproach...The most recent purposefully created anomalies are the high percentage of ULTRA LOW mileage Ford GT.

A higher degree of Ford GTs were specifically purchased by INVESTORS...NOT to be driven then any modern Sports Cars of recent memory.

In FACT the GULF paint scheme is worth an additional $100,000.00 MORE than an exact example only difference being the paint!

I was recently at a Ford Dealership in Silicone Valley purchasing a few Ford parts.

Asked the sales manager if he had every driven a customer's Ford GT?

He replied...ALL the Ford GTs come in for service on a car hauler...get serviced...get placed back on the car hauler & transported back to the owner's home/s.

Basically a "Static Investment" much like a Vermeer painting hanging on a wall, or a Alberto Giacometti's sculpture resting atop a Louis XIII Style Pantalonnière...( where is the pinkie in the air icon?!)Mark


When an anomaly becomes the norm, it is no longer an anomaly.
gilles027gilles027Member
quote:
We have a growing perception of value here. A perception that the car is undervalued and it is creating desirability OR buy it now or forever be not able to afford one?


happend to me with the countach, the gt, the stratos...
had a gray gt offered to me for it was round about $110k some 4 years ago. did not buy, idiot. not as an investment but just to have the car I was like "well maybe I get a cheaper one". no way, now we have the $300.000 for such a car.

Rocket ist right with what he says. Too many people on the buyer site are too optimistic for a long term and then... boom.
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello My East Coast Brethren; Doug you just created an oxymoron..."Normal Anomaly".

Who says you lost 100 points of IQ due to toxic fumes exposure Sympathy

That's rather HARSH!!!

I'd estimate NO more than 98 points You're Welcome Cheers...Mark


The South Seas Anomaly is only an anomaly if you aren't from the South Seas. If you are, it's the normal state of affairs and therefore...isn't?

Wink
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