"Hot" ignition switch?

NO. No switch should ever be hot. Heat in an electrical component means resistance which creates heat with current. Sounds like the contacts in your switch are starting to go bad and one day the car will either not start or die will driving.

Do you remember an earlier posting (your console switch thread) where I mentioned how the full light and fan amperage goes through the switches?

Guess what other component also sees that full amperage? You got it, ignition switch.

Them Italians were not very good in Electricity 101.

That is why the addition of the relays for fans and lights is so important.

While we are talking about hot electrical components, you should probably get into your center console one day and make sure the wires on the back of the amp gauge are tight. They tend to loosen and then they arc, which gets them hot causing them to loosen a bit more, and....

Preventative maintenance is very critical for Pantera owners. As is a cell phone, a 100 mile tow AAA card and some water to keep you healthy until the flatbed arrives.

Larry

I discovered the problem when my guages would "die" and the "Gen" light would come on. I thought it was a loose/corroded fuse, but it turned out to be the ignition switch. If, after starting the car, I notice the guages are dead, a quick jiggle of the ignition switch brings 'em back to life. I'll check the connections first, but...it could be the switch? Can I use one relay for the "hot" coming out of the switch, or do I need multiple relays for everything the ignition switch controls?

quote:

and fan amperage goes through the switches?

Guess what other component also sees that full amperage? You got it, ignition switch.

Them Italians were not very good in Electricity 101.

That is why the addition of the relays for fans and lights is so important.

While we are talking about hot electrical components, you should probably get into your center console one day and make sure the wires on the back of the amp gauge are tight. They tend to loosen and then they arc, which gets them hot causing them to loosen a bit more, and....

Preventative maintenance is very critical for Pantera owners. As is a cell phone, a 100 mile tow AAA card and some water to keep you healthy until the flatbed arrives.

Larry

Does the installation of Bob Timmas fuse panel w/relays fix this problem?
Will

quote:

Can I use one relay for the "hot" coming out of the switch, or do I need multiple relays for everything the ignition switch controls?

I say you must be careful; having all ignition on a relay can cause other problems. During cranking, voltage is low enough to not engage relays; if the spark box or even points are on this relayed circuit, it can inhibit ignition, often the engine will fire or fart as you let go of the start position.

Things like electric choke and alternator energize are ok to relay, as well as most accessory circuits, but not your ignition sources. (points, msd/duraspark nor distributor pickup), due to low voltage condition during cranking.

quote:

Originally posted by PartTimeAdult:

quote:

Can I use one relay for the "hot" coming out of the switch, or do I need multiple relays for everything the ignition switch controls?

I say you must be careful; having all ignition on a relay can cause other problems. During cranking, voltage is low enough to not engage relays; if the spark box or even points are on this relayed circuit, it can inhibit ignition, often the engine will fire or fart as you let go of the start position.

Things like electric choke and alternator energize are ok to relay, as well as most accessory circuits, but not your ignition sources. (points, msd/duraspark nor distributor pickup), due to low voltage condition during cranking.

OK, I'm not arguing here but there was an earlier thread in which George Pence recommended putting the entire ignition on a 50amp continuose duty relay.

It is on my to do list but now is as good as any to discuss this.

Help!

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
OK, I'm not arguing here but there was an earlier thread in which George Pence recommended putting the entire ignition on a 50amp continuose duty relay.

Yes, It occurred to me also when I first saw George's solution. My experience with many marine Windsors identified this limitation.

I have experienced, if all cables are near perfect and the components are well matched, the full-relay solution can function , but I found it caused the annoying starting symtoms when a starter was engaged.

I'm sure George will consider this alternate viewpoint magnanimously.

quote:

Originally posted by PartTimeAdult:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
OK, I'm not arguing here but there was an earlier thread in which George Pence recommended putting the entire ignition on a 50amp continuose duty relay.

Yes, It occurred to me also when I first saw George's solution. My experience with many marine Windsors identified this limitation.

I have experienced, if all cables are near perfect and the components are well matched, the full-relay solution can function , but I found it caused the annoying starting symtoms when a starter was engaged.

I'm sure George will consider this alternate viewpoint magnanimously.

As I recall, I was (maybe still am) subject to these hard start symtoms of the engine not firing, yet everything checks ok.

I don't remember if it was even my thread but I remember getting a 1am Pence wiring diagram.

Now boy, I gotta know! Don't tell me you're gonna' sleep on it! Which is it? What's it gonna be boy?

Heh. also its important to use diode protection on the energize side. When turned off, the colapsing field causes a voltage spike that can hurt electronics, and blow indicator lamps that have a path to ground. A couple hundred volts can be generated, for a blink. (that likely was covered, I forget)

Diodes, smiodes? Now I'm totally confused with this.
That Z06 is looking better and better.

Then you'll just be on the 'vette board asking what to do when your ecu reflash goes south and the car is dead.

quote:

Originally posted by popsrcr:
Then you'll just be on the 'vette board asking what to do when your ecu reflash goes south and the car is dead.

No, no, no, I just bring it to the dealer under waranty and say fix it. I'm really good at that.

I suppose this ignition relay discrepancy isn't going to get resolved or has it already been?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I suppose this ignition relay discrepancy isn't going to get resolved or has it already been?

I'm more confused now then when I originally posted...

Sorry Dan, I was attempting posative input but now I'm confused too.

quote:

I'm more confused now then when I originally posted...

Easy answer,

No it should not be hot.

Add the relays as per the article at panteraplace.

Problem solved, if the switch(es) are not already terminal.

Or do nothing and wait for the inevitable failures.

The article doesn't mention a relay for the ignition, does it? Just lights and fans I believe.

Doug,
Once you get the loads from the lights & fans off of the ignition switch with the relay modification you no longer have the excess current passing through the ignition switch & there should be no reason for it to heat up - hope this clears things up a little.

Yes I understand that but the reason George recommended moving the ignition to a relay was that sometimes with the Motorcraft solid state ignition systems they won't fire unless they have a minimal amount of current.

It sounded like that was the case with mine because I'd have less then 12v at the ignition cranking on a boosted battery. No lights or fans on at that point.

I'm not running now because the tank is drained in prep for going to EFI. So I can't check my cranking voltage. Well I suppose I could but it's hard to tell if it is firing without fuel.

George's relay system guaranteed full battery to the ignition at cranking.

I still think it's the best way to go, with the least complications. Now this diode thing and other comments about that modification have me confused.

If it helps, I have a diode in line with my fans. It keeps them from being a generator and allowing the car to run on a bit when the ignition is off. When i first got the car, it *would* run on. When I replaced the cooling system and added the diode it stopped.

HTH

Kermit

George and I set my car up with the ignition relay system almost two years ago. It was easy to install, works great. The car starts first first time every time. It also cured a couple other issues with the electrics on the car. At the same time I added a couple extra grounds to the car. A ground strap at the engine and a ground on the steering column. I didn't want to change out the igition switch if I didn't have to. I never felt the ignition switch to see if was ever "hot" before, I did check it the other day after driving for a while, no problem.

Doug's ignition switch had enough resistance that with the motor running, if he turned on the headlights or rolled down a window, it would kill the motor. Doug runs the drop-in MSD distributor.

I recommend removing current supplying the motor's ignition from the ignition switch, for the same reason you remove the headlights and the fans, because the electronic ignitions are too much load for the ignition switch and will lead to its inevitable failure.

I also recommend that owners of L Panteras route the control circuit for the new ignition relay through the spare rocker switch as it makes a convenient anti-theft device.

cowboy from hell

I don't remember a mention of the diode in that discussion.
The 1 am diagram is printed out and in one of my Pantera update folders (two of them about 3 inches thick).
What say you on the diode?

Doug,

the fan diodes are uneccessary if the relays are installed "properly".

cowboy from hell

Thank you CBFH. I will only do them properly from now on, I promise.

That was a 50 amp continuous duty relay for the igniton, correct?

If you find the lamps in your lighted rocker switches used to activate the relay don't last one or two deactivations, this explains why, and how to remedy. It works quite well, and can protect your other electronics from the spike.

We used the 50 cont duty solenoid in a rescue truck to power the accessory buss, the master lighted switch kept failing, first the light, then the contacts. A surge suppression diode was required.

http://www.suregripcontrols.com/install_suppress.htm