IR - Classic weber IDA or IDA TBI EFI?

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A. Quad 48mm Weber IDA + Hall Pantera 4v manifold vs.
B. Quad 48/50mm TWM/Inglese/Jenvey IDA TBI + Hall Pantera 4V manifold

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The obvious difference is price.. which tends to net out at 2k+.
A. 3k, bolt on and go.
B. 5+K, Plus, a bunch more work, sensors/ECU/HP fuel system to install.

I’m not sure who’s setting them up for you but I’d say it’s very doubtful that 48 IDAs will be bolt on and go. The good and bad news with IDAs is they are very tunable, but do need to be tuned/jetted properly. You should search the subject and buy a mag/tutorial if you have never owned and run them. Have you selected a cam specifically for IR IDAs? If not you should do so and this is true for IR in general for either IDAs or EFI. Without proper cam fuel reversion can be extreme and potential fire hazard. When properly done, IR EFI will afford better street manners. Most ECUs should allow cold start routines, better timing of when to introduce fuel pulse, ability to make altitude/barometric pressure adjustments (do you routinely experience significant changes in altitude in your driving?) and in general, easier tuning if you’re modestly computer savvy, as all can be accomplished by lap top computer as opposed to physically changing jets, and IDAs have a lot of them. IDAs also do not have choke and are really race carbs. IDFs have chokes. Most ECUs will enable significant advantages in ignition tuning as well.

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So I am wondering if it is really worth it, more cash, more work... for a little smoother running?

IMO, IR induction is not for people that are not tuners. I dont want to discourage you but like any custom engine build, parts must be properly selected in combinations that compliment each other. If the attraction to IR is primarily looks and the expectation is bolt on and go, I think you will likely find it unrewarding. If you are reasonably knowledgeable in engines and tuning, and like to do so, you can achieve nice results.

Best,
Kelly

There are issues with both the systems you ask about.

I've been playing with the 48ida Webers on the 351c since 1980. My opinion is that they are never perfect, just some times more then acceptable. They will never be what you expect them to be on the street. On the track, that's a different story. Not much can stay with them from 100mph and up.

Under that, they always will have some type of stupid BS issues. For one thing, besides the transition flat spot, besides the cylinder oiling wash down, besides the twisting up of the linkage at WOT and then not wanting to idle, besides the black gunk that will coat your exhaust, besides the slime over the back of the car, besides fouling the plugs to the point you can't clean them up with a full throttle blast...they will glue the plugs to the heads to the point you almost can't get them out without pulling the engine.

Oh...and you give away 80 - 100 hp with them BECAUSE you need to use a cam with severely limited overlap (28 degrees) to avoid the blow back through the carbs. But other then all of the above, they are fantastic! LOL!

Now, on the "Classic Fuel Injection" Weber carb look alikes, yep, they look great. Now here's the BUT, and it's a BIG ONE. The company that makes them can't assemble them to the quality standards necessary for them to run as advertised. Specifically, they can't assemble the throttle plates accurately enough for the idle air bleed screws to work.

You need to adjust your ignition advance down to idle the car down. Is that a big enough one for you? In addition, the casting quality of the housings themselves is so poor, they have to be SHOT PEENED to make them look right. So don't look really close at the details.

The company has been sold and resold about three times within the last 18 months as far as I can figure to avoid bankruptcy. What they call themselves at the moment...don't know for sure.

What are you going to do if you need parts for them and the company is gone?

You need to use the Haltech Platinum 1000 sport, or they won't work at part throttle at all either.

Also, the fuel injectors used are...geese, can't remember the part numbers...but they are supplied by Ford Racing and are a unique injector in order to fit within the Weber look alike housings. Read that as limited variety and expensive. No $300 per set here.

You are better off waiting for someone to make a crossram FI system specifically for th Cleveland. One that fits under the screen. Just my 2 cents.

So mixed reviews... My cam is a COMPCAMS 290 HR Roller.

The TWM is the better system but is obviously an FI system to the observer. The Classic, looks like Webers.

Jack, even if your car is driven on the track, knowledgeable tech inspectors will not pass the car if they hear the cam.Overlap is unmistakable.

The reason is the Webers will emit a quite visible plume of unburnt, atomized fuel behind the car at speed which is definitely a safety hazard.

True the factory teams ran big race cams back in the day with the webers, but that is just history now.

Big overlap cams with Webers on an IR manifold are just a disaster waiting to happen. Been there...done that.

3+ for a complete bolt on IDA set-up is imo a bit on the optimistic side.

I've been looking into this for quite some time, contacted quite some vendors, but finally went for Jim inglese (order in progress), as I had the most confidence in a deal with him. He made time to answer my questions, discuss in great detail with me my wants, needs, and expectations. And that did it for me - 48IDA's it will be...

Personally I’d say go with the injection.
But as others have mentioned here it depends greatly on the quality of the components.
And more than just the mechanical parts quality, the computer itself.
In reality all you need is a Weber style manifold fitted with aftermarket throttle bodies.

I have installed a very old 1980’s setup made back then by “Pantera Performance” in Colorado.
I don’t know if they are still around.

On my setup we have installed a more modern Motec computer.
And I cannot speak too highly of it, it’s great.
We plug in the laptop & have the ability to make all sorts of adjustments & fine tune the system.
So far we have the engine running really sweat by the laptop alone, without yet putting the car on the Dyno.
When it does go on the Dyno we will have the ability to set the air/fuel ratio precisely.
With the Lambda sensor fitted in the exhaust the computer will tell us exactly what the Air/Fuel ratio is, (Should be around 14:1).
We can also set the RPM increments as low as 20 rpm, (not that you would as it would consume too much time).
Which means you bring the car up to say 1000 rpm, check the Lambda reading & then dial that RPM to 14:1 air fuel & also the timing to suit.
If you wanted to be really pedantic about it you could then bring the Revs up to 1020 rpm & do it all again & keep on lifting the Rpm on each Dyno run by the precise rpm increments.
That obviously takes time & through the 1000 rpm to 3000 rpm we will maybe set it at 150 rpm increments & above 3000 rpm maybe at around 250 rpm increments.
I will leave that up to my Dyno guy as I’m not expert on that stuff.
But you get the idea.
The difference between a carburetor & fuel injection is like comparing a bucket with holes in the bottom to a Cray super computer.

You will also need to notch out the rear hood to fit around the throttle bodies.

Attached here is a picture of the setup so far.
I designed & machined the Velocity stacks to suit low to mid range torque, combined with CHI heads that have 3V ports, flaring out to 4V size to match the 4V manifold.
Compression is 11:1 in which I run pump 98 octane fuel.

It’s a lot of work to do the install, so be warned !

Regards,
Tony

You can get a complete kit for $2900 + Tax, in california. Real 48mm IDA webers, 4v manifold, linkage, fuel line... ready to bolt on.

As for my cam, it has 110 lobe sep, and 230 duration at 0.050lift. From what I have been reading and after speaking with comp cams... who own Inglese, there tech seem to think that is not an issue. As for fuel reversion, the above should limit it...

thoughts?

JC71

I know Pierce Manifolds offers kits for $3000

You'll need to syncronsie them yourself too (buy a meter). Is the kit jetted for your needs, did you think about a vacuum line and block too, whether your pressure regulator is good for it, did you consider a pressure gauge...

Yeah Pierce is the shop. Def seem to know what they are talking about. Give them basic engine spec and usage and they get it close, jetting, fuel circuits, etc.
But then suggest a bunch of tweaking, once installed. I have another ride with a triple setup... so used to syncronizing, etc. Will run a filter king and a vacuum pump for the brake booster. If I choose to go this route.

Stack Injection.com sell a manifold for the 351c along with the throttle bodies.
Go here: http://stackinjection.com.au/?mode=list

VERY COOL PARTS look like they are the US dealer for them: http://verycoolparts.com/Stack.htm

These guys also sell a 351c setup, not sure if its a Stack product or something different: http://www.shiftkits.com.au/in...19_28&products_id=34

Inglese do the Weber setup: http://www.inglese.com/Products/FordSmallBlock.asp

Hilborn do a fuel injection for the 351c:
http://www.hilborninjection.co...asp?Id=338&CatId=176

Active twin tech do a high rise & low rise twin throttle body for the 351c 4V:
http://www.activetwintech.com.au/productlist.php

So theres plenty to chose from.

As I stated earlier, the key to a good injection setup is the computer.
Motec are about as good as it gets & is in a windows format, so its easier to play with.

regards,
Tony.

What block and heads to you plan to use with the IR EFI .. I have a nice intake Kelly casted ... for sale.

Ron

4V Iron heads. That said, there are a lot of choices, both in terms of manifold designs, that range from plenum to ITB, the list goes on. To be honest with you... I tend to prefer the fact that my pantera is analog, vs. digital. ie no computer, extra wires, sensors and stuff. It may not be easy to start, may not every run as well. But isn't that part of its charm. I have an everyday car (RS6) that quite frankly I don't want to touch, because the first thing you need is a odbii reader to figure out what is wrong.
So I am leaning towards carbs... its cheaper, less work to install, and all I need is a screw driver, a synchro gauge and a little patience. But then again. I don't want my car to catch on fire. So easy, safe and more fun... is really what I am after.
thoughts?

It is for the very same reason I finally went for carbs. I'm used to ride one and two cilinder carb bikes too, and prefer the way those run above the way four cilinders do. Somebody used only to smooth running four cilinders, and liking them much, will most likely dislike the one or two cilinder engines. My one cilinder often stalls when I stop at traffic lights, the thing vibrates like hell, but I love it.

If I wanted a super smooth running thing, than I had to buy myself a modern car - instead I went for a forty year old beauty. The carb set-up really does fit the car's age so... I will combine the kit with a complete programmable digital ignition though - a thing I plan to hide well, so nobody can see the modern stuff

I'm going to 2x4 Holleys. Put in a nice CompCams solid lifter with 74 degrees of overlap. You know the kind...sounds like a marching band at idle. Don't need to worry know about loosing hp due to the reversion cam for the Webers, and trust me on this one, that cam gives plenty of hp away.

Webers are off an on the shelf. I may even eventually be able to get the four fouled plugs out of the drivers side head too?

I've found the Ford Holley 2x4 set up to run the best of any carburetored system...ever! Problem is you need to cut the decklid like for the Webers...but hell, already done that!

Hey Doug:

So can you elaborate on the 2x4 setup you are considering? I know you can get tunnel rams... but those seems to give plenty of top end charge, but don't offer to much TQ in the lower rev range. What set up are you considering?

Cheers JC71

It's a 351w 2x4 Holley intake made by Price Motorsports.
What he does is mill off the front thermostat housing and water passage, mill the rear of the manifold to fit the 351c block, and build aluminum billet spacers to mount the manifold.

You would think that the manifold would need to just be cut to fit a 9.2 block but the engineering to match up the top of the ports requires spacers.

The set up is in progress. He should get to it this week. He's a busy guy. He's gonna' email me the picture of the spacers when they are done.

The ports on the manifold are the same height as my A3's but narrower. When they are done they will come closer to what I need on the width. You can't get the full width of the port because the manifold isn't thick enough BUT they should come to about what the width of the B351 head.

The manifold as it is cast flows 285cfm @ 28in of mercury. That isn't terrible and for a street manifold will crispin up throttle response. On a track it would surely suffer in the 7,000 to 8,000 rpm bracket at WOT but doubt it will ever get there?

Because of the spacers the manifold will not sit on the block. He has a cast aluminum valley cover for this and the result is it will look and work like an air gap set up.

Here's a picture of the manifold. It is available with both the angled carb base or flat. The flat will work best on the Pantera.

Oh, and all of this for $680. Not bad I say?

I can already tell you that I have the Blue Thunder 2x4 "high-rise" on my 68 Shelby GT350 (347/302) with 600cfm Holleys. To say it loves them is an understatement. It has to be the best running carburetored setup I have ever driven.

I would expect the Pantera to be nothing less and quite possibly hotter. This Cleveland has more cam, much better heads (A3) and 180 headers.

I would say that this set up will not fit under the stock screen or without cutting the decklid. Mine is already cut for the Webers.

By the time it is done it will resemble the GT40 MIV air cleaner set up with ducting to the window scoops and a big benefit is it won't be subject to sucking in rain or car wash water and soap. To me that's a big plus.

sweet... so its and IR setup, but using 2 Holley 600 CFM carbs, right? Does he do a conversion for the 4v iron heads... this clearly would be way cheaper and assume it will as you suggested improve the throttle response, similar to the IDA's, but with a slightly longer runner, should be ok with TQ too?
Beyond the above question, if I go IDA, what do you think are the best filter setup.. Kn, BBR? Assume the BBR would make the possible reversion fuel haze impossible?
Thoughts?

No this isn't an IR manifold at all. An example of an IR manifold would be the Wieand tunnel ram without the top plenum and the carbs mounted directly to it.

The PE manifold in the picture has two plenums, one under each carb and they are attached by common runners.

Here's a pic of the air cleaner it will use. This is from the 64 Ford Fairlane 427 Thunderbolt set up.

The ducting runs off of the side.

This enables you to use a nice overlap cam. In my case 75 degrees.

If I was to use that with an IR manifold like the Webers OR the Weiand with no plenum, the overlap would cause the piston to push pressure back up through the carb and create a negative flow.

That is why you cannot run an air cleaner on a Weber 48ida on an IR MANIFOLD. The air cleaner element would become saturated with not just fuel but atomized fuel and any kind of a spark, even static, would cause one hell of a fire.

Yes the carbs will be two 1850 Holley 600 cfm vacuum secondary carbs and use the Ford 427 throttle linkage that mounts the carbs backwards.

The set up really works very very well and was run on the Mustangs in the Trans-am series in 67, 68 and 69.

This is what the air cleaner looks like. The ducting will run off of the sides to the air scoops.

The ducting looks like this on the Tbolt.

Hey Doug
The price manifold sounds interesting.. but I would like to understand the real advantages of this type of setup, Dual Quad.
Two 600CFM carbs seems like a lot of CFM?
Non IR, shared plenum, why two carbs vs. One larger carb... just shorter runner?
Why is this better than webers, beyond the possible reversion issue? hoping you can give a little more detail.
JC71

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Well the main advantage to the 2x4 is the progressive way the carbs work. The linkage is from the Ford 427 2x4 setup which goes back with Ford to 1963 and is proven itself time and time again.

The carbs are mounted backwards with the primary carb in the front. This gives an extra 1/2" spacing to the distributor/fuel bowl and locates the primary throttle close to the center of the intake.

The linkage allows running on just those that primary part (front two barrels) of the primary carb until about 3,500 rpm when it starts to open the front barrels of the secondary carb.

The secondaries are vacuum actuated and open as the engine load permits, so the all considered, the engine runs around town on a 300cfm two barrel (in effect) until 3,500 rpm.

The main jets are also 59's. This is an indication of a better fuel distribution in the intake vs. at least a 67 on a single 4v cab (if not more).

Remember, you are talking to a "Weber" guy here so I feel that I have the picture on the pluses and minuses here.

Driveability wise,the Webers have no chance in competing with this Holley set up and because you can run a wild cam with them, and you can't with the Webers, there is a huge advantage power wise.

Ford once rated the difference between the single 4v and the 2x4v as 50hp, all things given equal. That doesn't even begin to explain it. The driveability of the setup is unreal.

Also consider that I also have a 67 Shelby GT500 (#3074 for those of you who are checking up on me) and it runs a 428 with a pair of 715 Holleys (3300 & 3301). Stock that set up takes a pair of 652 because of the station wagon 428 cam it cam with. Don't ask me about the cam in mine. Already too many parameters going on here.

The problem with the set up is relatively simple. You need to get your fuel levels in the bowls right or else they make a mess leaking through the throttle shafts and spilling into the intake manifold. In short, you set the levels lower so they don't trickle out of the view plug holes. But again, that's another story.

I will point out that the top of the hill, the Ford GT40 Mark IV (427 TP) in '67 ran this setup.
When you look at the set up in that car you will see a remarkable similarity to the layout of the Pantera with a similar set up.

The Holleys are by no means a piece of cake to get going but they are about 4 times easier then the Webers to do and don't change with the weather like the Webers.

Is 1200cfm of carbs too much? First off if you are usin 37mm chokes in the Webers, that's 2,400cfm right there.

Second these A3 heads flow 330cfm @ 28in-mg. How many cfm is that? (330 x 8)

No. 1,200is pretty nice if you ask me, but I'll admit I am certifiable. Don't let "them" know that I know this. "They" have been trying to tell me for years to get help? I already did, and this is what sanity really is.