IR injection maintenance

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:
I was referring to an improper choice of material/size for a 25 cent oring can have significant consequences.

EXACTLY in regards to "improper material".

Make SURE the o-rings are made for ethanol gasoline.

Possibly the current o-ring seepage/leakage could be attributed to ethanol deterioration...Mark

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:
...Just ... a couple 25 cent O-rings..

ain't that what Morton Thiokol said

Nitrile and Buna N are most common for petroleum products with low aromatic content and probably what’s been working well in that fuel rail for 15-20 years. They'd be fine with 10% ethanol as well but if you’re running exotic fuels or methanol, buy fluorocarbon elastomer (aka Viton if you’re a DuPont disciple). It’s only ~40 psi so not a particularly demanding fluid sealing application but if you're not comfortable selecting an O-ring based on the gland size you shouldn’t be fiddling with fuel systems……However, it isn’t rocket science.

Best,
K

I called and asked, and if loosened, the rail can come apart in halves, so I can then easily deal with the O-ring replacement by loosening everything and removing just one half.

I might dive into that tonight. I've never messed with FI and fuel rails (just carbs)so this will be new territory for me, but it's all old, basic stuff, not beyond me mechanically, at least to take apart lol!

Hopefully the O-rings on the injectors hold up, or I'll be replacing those too.

Viton has always been the "better schoice" when I had the option. I'll go with Viton replacement O-rings if I can find them, once I get the offending ones out.

quote:

Originally posted Panterror



Just replace the O-rings. It’s a 15-30 minute job to remove the rails, measure and buy a couple 25 cent O-rings. If you remove the two underside screws that mount each fuel rail, both rails on the bank will lift off the injectors and then use an offset or ratchet screw driver to remove the inside retaining caps. –Replace O-rings reverse assembly.

If the fuel rails are removed you won't need a ratchet/right angle screwdriver.

Simply twist the two halves along the axis off the rails so they are not in line.

I'm finding it impossible to remove the 4 allen screws that hold the fuel rails on.

Positioning has me stressing too hard with my still recovering from my surgery.

I'm tempted to just take the whole top half of the sytsem off the car, then I'd have everything on the bench to work on.

Before that though, I'm going to remove the seats and firewall (again!) and see if I can't get in there more easily.

This is a really hard car to work on!

That's or find someone to tow the car to have have it fixed. There's one shop in town that will work on the car, but they were straightforward and said they'd just charge hourly and have to trust them.

A friend took his car there and they did good work and it was expensive, but hey DID fix his issue.

b Pulling the seats and firewall upholstery to see if I can hopefully get at those fuel rail allen screws.

This will also allow me to remove my throttle cable, inspect, and probably replace it.

Not sure if my throttle cable is a custom made piece, or a standard throttle cable routed as needed for the injection.

I'll know more later hopefully.

Pulling the seats and firewall off didn't help with getting the fuel rail off. They needed to still come off because I need to inspect/replace my throttle cable, so they came off/out today.


I found the necessary tools to remove my fuel rail however, Little Hands!

My fiend came over and helped me, and he a has much smaller hands, so together, we were able to get the fuel rail off.

Monday Ill take it to somewhere that does injector work and have the O-rings and injectors checked, and the rail O-rings fixed.

here's another pic of the rail. The leak is at the tube between the two rail halves.

if you can, a Pic of the tube removed would be interesting (for me any way)

Here's a pic of the rails with the tube removed from one side

In looking at the console side covers, it looks like there's a difference between the pre-L and "L" covers. The "L" covers have a bump in them to clear the cable it looks like. Mine's a Pre-L, and has a flimsy flat piece of plastic for a cover, and I believe it may be catching on cable or pedal.

I'm removing my cable and inspecting/replacing it anyways, because it just doesn't feel right (too much pedal pressure needed compared to how easily the system is actuated by hand up where the cable attaches) like a sticky or draggy cable.

One observation on the throttle cable is that mine is attached to a central wheel (bellcrank) that makes the transition to a 90 degree turn effortless and removes any binding of the cable internally to its shield.

It also modifies the pedal feel in that it changes to a 2:1 ratio. Yours looks like a straight 1:1 ratio? Sometimes the ratio is changed so that the throttle "feels" right and the engine responds as you expected it to? I don't know it that was a consideration when the entire system was installed and set up. I can tell you that with the Weber carbs often it is not and the owners have "issues" with the throttle feel.

My pedal feel is very much lighter as a result. This reduces the wear on the throttle shafts and uses the built in return spring pressure without adding additional unnecessary spring return pressures that accelerate the wear on the throttle shafts internally against the housings.

If the cable is shielded with a rigid outer housing, what the console cover does is not significant at all.

The o ring on that tube should be simple for you to change. Check the bore in the aluminum rail for scoring, scratches, etc. Don't insert the o-ring back in dry. Use a dab of vasolene.

The injectors are held to the rail by clips. They all seem pretty loose in the rail.

The lower O-rings that plug into the manifold all look good.

In getting the rail off, I yanked upwards pretty hard to get the rails up and injectors out of their holes.

Should have have an injector shop redo the top injector O-rings? Is it normal for the injectors to feel loose in the fuel rail. There's clips that hold them to the rail, so the rail and injectors came off as an assembly.

From working on other cars, not your set up, the o-rings on the injectors provide the seal, and the fuel rail clamp down assembly provides the stability to the fuel rail.

Check your rails for scoring in the fuel injector bores.

If that set up was played with a lot as far as trying different size fuel injectors, it COULD show wear there.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
One observation on the throttle cable is that mine is attached to a central wheel (bellcrank) that makes the transition to a 90 degree turn effortless and removes any binding of the cable internally to its shield.
...

with just an arm, the cable can only be straight in one position, because as the arc of the lever changes, the cable coming out of the shield will be pulled off center.

a bell crank allows the cable to always be straight and thus no chance of binding on the shield.

an alternitive is to allow the cable connection to the bracket stay loose so it can wiggle and attempt to self align

Found the O-rings for the fuel rail junction tube for $.50, so I should be able to plug all that back together without issue.

I hope the few days of dryness without fuel on the O-rings on the other side don't dry up the other side! That would be a PITA.

I removed the throttle cable, it was in bad shape. Melted by contact to the header, so it was running cable-to-metal housing, and didn't feel good at all.

I found an outfit called Lokar? They're supposed to be able to make/duplicate my throttle cable, unless someone has a better suggestion.

Regardless, the cable is being sent out somewhere, where I can hopefully get it duplicated. I'll be sending overnight or 2-day AIR to get the new cable back ASAP.

This will give me a couple days to get the fuel rail and injectors back in place with new O-rings, and get things leak-free.

That, and the new throttle cable, and I'll be back on the road!

removed my throttle cable, it was in bad shape. Melted by the headers, it was really rough.

I sent the cable off to a cable outfit to have it duplicated, should be in next week.

I should have my injectors back in the car by then, then the car should be ready for the throttle cable, and then the open road!

In looking to get mt throttle cable duplicated, I found 2 outfits that make custom cables.

Ones is LOKAR, and the other is Control Cables.

My cable has threaded ends on both ends of the cable, and also threaded ends on the housing.

I suspect it might be a long (95" with 85" housing) cable for a Harley Davidson, but instead of driving around trying to match the cable, I just sent it off to Control Cables. They have a 1-2 day turnaround, so I should have the cable back next week early hopefully.

This will give me the time to reinstall my fuel rail and injectors with the new O-rings.

I hope that the O-rings on the other side fuel rail don't dry up from lack of contact with fuel! Then I'd have to do the same thing to the other side. The one side that I DID do was a total PITA so I have my fingers crossed.

The vendors carry both stock throttle cables (different lengths & ends) with jackets that use a PTFE liner instead of polyethylene that may now be 45 years old.
Hopefully the o-rings you located are for fuel? the witch's brew sold in CA as 'gasoline' eats nearly everything elastomeric.

Bosswrench, thanks for the tip. I inquired where I bought the O-rings and they were good for oil, diesel, but not fuel, so I sourced out some Viton O-rings and installed them.

I'm happy to report PARTIAL SUCCESS!

I got the fuel rail back together with new O-rings, actually got it all reinstalled by my lonesome, and after cycling the fuel pump 5 or 6 times, and checking pressure, my fuel system is back together, and leak-free!

The only thing holding me up now is the throttle cable. That I sent off to "Control Cables", they should get it today or tomorrow, they said 1-2 day turnaround.

All that's left after the throttle cable is putting things back on like the air cleaners, one velocity stack, seats, firewall and engine cover. It's a couple hours of work, but when I'm done, my car should be good to go!

I'm looking forward to actually driving my car.

Chuck told me "owning a Pantera is a love/hate relationship". I truly know what he meant by that now, but MAN, when the car IS running, and you're stinking everyone up at intersections, and getting "thumbs-up" all the time, and not to forget the huge horsepower, THAT, I LOVE.

Fixing stupid sh!t, chasing electrical probs, the car being nearly impossible to work on certain things, those things I hate.

In the end though, I'm looking forward to getting back in my car and getting a little sideways, punish her a little for giving me such a hard time.

As I've said before .. "she" will punish you if you get too nuts. Be careful with that right foot.

Thanks for the tip, but I practice RSD (responsible sideways driving).

WOT on this car is straight scary, so I DO respect it very much.

Found an outfit called "Control Cables Inc." that is making an exact duplicate of my cable TODAY, shipping on monday, should have the cable back in my car on wednesday.

So far, the fuel system looks to be leak-free, so I should be back on the road after the new throttle cable install.

It will be very satisfying, as I've had to do all the work myself.

New throttle cable should be here Wednesday!

Fuel rail seems fixed, everything is holding pressure and no leaks.

Hopefully thursday I'll be out cruising around.

Cable arrived late today. I have it installed, just need to adjust it, and then put the car back together. Should be on the road before noon tomorrow!

Snow White has risen once again from her deep slumber!

Got the car all finished today, everything seems to be OK. Water temps and oil temps perfect, oil pressure is above good (40-45lbs at idle with oil temps of 220, always above 60lbs anytime else. It only goes above 65 when I REALLY rev the motor up, otherwise it just runs at 60-65 everywhere), goobs of power! I gave my friend a ride, went through the gears to the top of 3rd, looked over at him and he was truly terrified lol.

I'm a happy camper, hopefully for a long time.

Way ta go!

It's amazing how much better the car feels with the new throttle cable!

The old one laid up against one of the headers and got melted, so the cable was running on metal. Out of the car, you can pull on one end very lightly, and it takes all the strength you have to pull the cable from the other side.

This explains why it was so hard to push on the pedal.

Now it's smooth as butter.

Fuel leak fix seems to be holding as well.