Skip to main content

Ever since I bought my pantera I have had grinding issues with my trans. I have had the trans rebuilt, replaced the clutch, pressure plate and throw out bearing with the "proper" parts. I want to replace my master and slave cylinder with a long throw slave. I have bled the system and every time the fluid looks really dirty. (I think the master cylinder has some issues.) Could anyone tell where would be the best place to purchase a master cylinder and a long throw slave? Thanks in advance.
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

...I purchased My Slave from Hall Panteras. I received their Discount for buying Both the Slave and Matching Master Cylinder, Together; $200. I recommend replacing Both Units at the same time Otherwise Your just fixing Half the Problem, and You'll be working on the system a second time in the not too distant future! Also! Were You sure to use the Correct 'Throw-Out Bearing'? 'Flat' Faced for Forged '3-Fingered' Pressure Plates and 'Convex' Faced for 'Diaphram' (multiple sheet metal) Fingers on the Pressure Plate!! If a Flat Faced (original design) T.O. Bearing were to be used on a Diaphram plate; OR a Convex faced Bearing were used on a 3-Finger Plate, The 'Geometry' Of the 'Disengagement' Action would be so far off; it would prevent Total Disengagement of the Clutch. You may hear some Reply that Theirs' Work fine; But Not as well as it should! Last; I have said this many times in the past. If Your having trouble getting into Reverse Gear, 9 times out of 10, it is simply because the 'Reverse Light' SWITCH, Has been screwed IN TOO FAR! Yes, that switch mounted on the ZF Box where the Shift Rod Mounts; with 2 wires coming off of it, these Must be acurately Adjusted! In too far WILL prevent shifting into Reverse! Something to look for. Good-Luck with it!...
...One more thing: The Correct Adjustment on the Slave Cylinder is Paramount! Concerning the Threaded Rod Adjuster AT the Slave; IN too far and You have NO Disengagement! OUT too far and Your Throw-Out Bearing will 'Ride' costantly on the fingers of the P. Plate Until It Burns-up! Some have reported having THIS condition for so long that the 3 Forged Fingers were worn almost in two pieces!...
The std test for a Pantera's proper clutch assembly/adjustment is to have a friend push the clutch pedal flat to the firewall while you stick a flat feeler gauge thru the bellhousing access hole (engine OFF!) A minimum 0.030" feeler should slide in between the flywheel and clutch disc. This means you only have 0.015" of clearance between the TWO clutch disc faces, but that's about all most stock Panteras can achieve. Brand-new, they only had 0.040", or 0.020" per side! Drag in the clutch means drag in the ZF synchros each time you shift, and when the synchros wear out, they take the synchro cones on the mating gears with them. The gears are not repairable. Currently, a single pair of new gears with replacement synchros, installed in your ZF, is 'around' $2500.
Bottom line: Maximize the clutch disengagement distance as above, or drive it as-is and open a Christmas Club savings account at your local bank for soon-to-be-needed repairs!
Thank you everyone for your prompt replies!! It means a lot!!!
I thought maybe I would add a little history for you to ponder. I do think the problem is that the clutch isn't disengaging properly. I bought the car knowing it was grinding into gear. The previous owner said it didn't do it until he put a new clutch and pressure plate in it and had the flywheel turned. When I drained the trans, several "teeth" from the block ring came out. I sent the trans off and had it rebuilt. At that time I ordered a new clutch, T.O. bearing and pressure plate from P.I. Also a new spring for the T.O. I have also replaced the "trunion bearing" and carefully adjusted the linkage to specs. I also found the mount for the trunion bearing was broken loose. I assume from when the engine was pulled by the previous owner. There were signs that it had been used as a leverage point. After all this I STILL grind into second, and after the car is warmed up, into 3rd, 4th and 5th. I drive it VERY carfully and am sure I have not done any damage -I just need it to stop grinding. It realle detracts from the fun of driving the car. I have tried bleeding the system and every time the fluid is very dark gray -something is wearing somewhere. I want to replace the master, slave and line and see if that solves my problem. Am I on the right track?
I bought a clutch master & slave from Hall in June, '08. Paid $249 for both. No deal there, even with spending $3k for other parts at the same time. I discovered that Hall's clutch master cylinder's bore was ~ 0.060" larger than my stock master, but the slave's bore was the same. This combination would increase the slave's throw (piston travels farther &, hopefully, doesn't bottom out) but it will also increase the clutch pedal effort slightly (~8%). I decided to rebuild my stock master and slave.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panteradreamin:
After all this [work], I STILL grind into second, and after the car is warmed up, into 3rd, 4th and 5th..../QUOTE

The ZF, like Porsche transmissions, uses STEEL synchro rings (called 'baulk-rings'), running against hardened steel gear-cones to synchronise gear speeds. Shifting too fast, its easy to beat the synchro action even if new, and you will get a grind. So maybe you can slow down your gear stick speed? U.S transmissions use bronze synchro rings which wear much faster but preserve gear-cone life. Several of the vendors over the years have invested many dollars in trying to come up with a way to recycle worn gear-cones but so far, nothing's worked except D Quella's innovation which uses undersized bronze synchro rings on typically worn gear cones. The disadvantage is, bronze synchro ring life is fairly short; then you gotta completely strip the transaxle and replace some or all the bronze synchro rings again. If you drive much and don't do your own ZF overhauls, labor costs will eat you alive with this arrangement.
I am not sure if this has been asked, but how can you tell if the clutch arm is oriented/clocked correctly with the splines on the ZF? I ask because through the ZF window I can see that I have PLENTY of clutch material left, yet I am experiencing occasional slippage and the slave(long throw)is adjusted about as far in (short) as it can go. Could the arm be a spline or two forward, or could something else be failing that would cause this?
I really can't say I know the answer to your question but no one else replied. I did notice when I put my trans back in that there is no key to index the lever. What I do know is that as the clutch disk wears, the fingers on the pressure plate stick out further thus decreasing the amount of free play between the T.O bearing. If you can't move the T.O. bearing back far enough to fully engage the clutch, you probably need a new clutch and pressure plate. Does that make any sense?
There are two (2) clutch adjustments. The first is the length of the slave cylinder actuating rod that attaches to the short bellcrank. The second is the position of the bellcrank on the clutch cross-shaft. Its easy to get a non-std clutch that stacks too thick, and the fix is often to remove the bellcrank and replace it on its shaft a spline or two away, to compensate. Look at the bellcrank adjustment as a gross adj. and the actuating rod length as a fine adjustment. But your goal should be to get as much throw as possible at the clutch. Also, when the whole package warms up, the clearances will change, just like when adjusting valves.
Link copied to your clipboard.