Does anyone have any experience with magnesium rims vs. aluminum ones? I am looking to purchase a set of Group IV gold rims and was wondering beside magnesium being lighter, what are the pros and cons? Back in the day magnesium wheels were prone to cracking and oxidation. Is that still the case? Any informative response is greatly appreciated.
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The advantage is as you state, lighter for lower unsprung weight. Are you purchasing a set of 40 year old magnesium rims or a new set from Marvic?
I apologize, but I don't know who is Marvic.
I was looking at the rims on Mr. Fiat. They have magnesium as well aluminum alloy Group IV wheels listed.
Please inform me as to Marvic.
Thank you in advance.
Thank you husker. I wonder if Mr. Fiat gets their wheels from Marvic.
I have read numerous posts that state sand gravity casted magnesium wheels are prone to cracking, and they are nearly impossible to repair. Alternatively, it is impossible for forged magnesium wheels to crack. The cost must be a large factor as to why manufacturers rarely do forged magnesium wheels anymore.
Having said that, any members experience cracking issues with new magnesium wheels which were casted as opposed to forged? Magnesium wheels are a huge investment, and I am trying to decide between functionality and price vs. originality. I am willing to fork up the money for magnesium rims, but not if they only last a few years.
Mr. Fiat gets the magnesium rims from Marvic and WAS getting the aluminum rims from ROIN in Italy. Marvic was only making a magnesium based wheel. There was demand for replacement mag rims for the vintage race crowd and Marvic stepped up. ROIN makes a number of different rim styles for multiple vintage cars. Search the web and see their sites.
And you can save yourself a huge mark-up by buying direct. Contact the two makers directly.
Thank you panterapatt. It is much appreciated.
If it were me, I would buy the ROIN rims. He can paint them any color you want. Running a wide magnesium-based rim on the street would not be my preference.
Magnesium rims will start to work harden after about ten years, eventually possibly resulting in cracking which, if it gets bad enough, will result in failure. This can be prevented by periodically checking the wheels for cracks (magafluxing does not work so Zyglow dye testing is required to do this), then annealing (stress-relieving) the wheels by baking and then slowly cooling them in a specific way. Cracks, if they are not too bad, can be welded but this takes finding an experience welder who can work with magnesium - good luck with that one. Corrosion is also a very bad problem if the finish on the wheel gets scratched (or if someone repainted the wheel without the required chromate primer to seal it) and moisture is allowed into the porous magnesium. Outgassing is an issue too, but too complex to get into here.
I know of at least one Pantera that was in a very serious crash because a corroded Campy failed.
In terms of durability, it seems to me that would depend on two factors. First, I would expect the mileage would have a bearing on it, and most of our cars are not daily drivers, so I would be surprised if the work hardening rate would not be commensurately low. Second, if a wheel is well maintained, and with any scratches being immediately re-sealed, the corrosion should be limited (although I inspect the hub area for corrosion whenever the wheels are off the car because that is a contact point on which I have observed it is not possible to maintain a perfect seal). In short, if your car is not a daily beater with bad curb rash, I would think you would be safe going for a lot longer than ten years without Zyglow testing and annealing - but this is just my personal opinion which is worth exactly what you are paying for it.
Mike Drew and Jack DeRyke have written about this quite comprehensively here and elsewhere, and I suggest looking that up. Or, if there is enough interest, I can re-post the information.
All this was also explained in the February 2018 POCA Newsletter which is available in the club archives for download.
I have purchased 2 sets of magnesium Group 4 wheels from Marvic, the wheels are a work of art and Marvic are wonderful people to deal with. The current US$/Euro FX rate would make them a bargain price too!
Note that Marvic only produces the rears in the Group 4 race version of 14" wide, they work well with the 345/35 PIrelli tire and fill the flares a little more than the 13" road version and those came originally with a spacer anyway.
I recently replied to a question on the e-mail regarding wheel weights,
10" 2 slot Campagnolo 19lbs
10" 10 spoke Marvic repro Campi 14lbs
13" 10 spoke OEM Campagnolo 16.5lbs
14" 10 spoke Marvic repro Campi 17lbs
Looks like Roin have added to their De Tomaso range, I don't have comparative weights for their aluminum wheels.
When I last communicated with Andrea Roin which was a few years ago:
1. prices are Euro 850,00 each front 10"x15" and Euro 950,00 each rear 13"x15".
2. I confirm wide 10" and 13" x 15" (as original)
3. The backspacing is fixed and measured front 115 mm and rear 135 mm
4. material used is aluminium 6082T6 in two pieces welded
5. Delivery time at today is about 5 weeks from confirm order
6. wheel are painted as original (nitro paint). You can choose color.
For further information please ask.
Via Monte Comun, 35 37057 San Giovanni Lupatoto - VERONA - ITALY
Tel. +39-0458779288 - Fax +39-0459786925 - Mob. +39-3402735464
This is great information; thank you. I sent them an email and hopefully they will respond tomorrow. I will keep you posted.
Julian, this was news to me re: Roin Aluminum Campy Group 4 wheels - "material used is aluminium 6082T6 in two pieces welded".
Do you know if the Marvic wheels are also made in two pieces, welded together?
The Roin wheels were always a 2-piece welded rim. Just like most "custom" wheels that Foose and Boyd and Phil Schmidt make (made). When done, they are solid as a cast wheel. The Maric is a cast wheel per their website and the foundry they use. Roin also make a 3-piece design with split rims and a bolt-up center like the Gotti, BBS, etc. I see that Roin now make at 15" diameter 14" wide GP IV rim which is what I would buy and mate with the 10" front rim. I am thinking of moving in that direction and selling my Gotti's.
I received a response from Marvic today, so here is their most current pricing for their magnesium Gr4 rims:
Pantera Gr4 10"x15"...1,900 Euro each
Pantera Gr4 14"x15"...2,100 Euro each
Freight they say will be around 500 Euro for the set of 4 wheels to the U.S. with a 10 week delivery from purchase order. 30% up front at order, and the rest of the balance is due when wheels are ready and before shipment.
wowzaa! so about 9 grand for wheels. Tires are another 2.5. Mounting them (very carefully) and balance. $12K.
Question, do these need longer wheel studs than normal. I had been "told" the real Campy GP IV rims needed to have a longer stud installed. Was never able to confirm this with those that own them. Julian would know for certain.
Did you contact Roin to get updated prices?
The Group 4, GT5/5S cars have longer wheel studs to accommodate the 10 spoke magnesium wheels.
$2.5K for tires? At what discount store? $3.6K for all 4 corners is much more accurate as of a few days ago. Pirelli P Zero 345/34/15 in the rear and Pirelli Centurato P7 285/40/15 in the front. Not to mention the fronts are nearly impossible to find.
I have contacted Roin twice and have not heard back yet. Sent an email as well and am waiting for a response.
The new pirelli P7’s are $600 for the fronts and $650 for the rears. Suggest you google Lucas Tire in Long Beach . They are in stock.
Or Longstone tire in the UK. They ship internationally.
Thank you panterapatt. Seriously thank you. I had gotten my previous two rear ones from TireRack for almost $1,200 a piece. With tax and shipping I know I paid well over $2,400 just for the rears. The fronts I found just ONE on line for $700. That is why I was saying $3.6K for all four corners. Now I see that is obviously a rip off.
Lucas Tire has them both in stock for the price you stated. Did I say thank you?
You are welcome. Longstone looks like they are out of stock on the 285's. My understanding is shipping to the US is reasonable from them.
Sent yet another email to Roin and still waiting for a response. I might have to purchase an international calling card and try phoning them.
Is there a Roin dealer in the states? I could not find one online.
Mr Fiat is a Roin dealer.
Just spoke with Andrea Roin over the phone. A nice guy. Ended up ordering a set of gold colored Campagnolo Gr4 wheels from him, two for the front (10x15) and two for the rear (14x15). Saved myself approximately $2,400 by ordering directly from Roin rather than going with Mr. Fiat. I feel bad a little, because David at Mr. Fiat was such a nice guy. But holy crap, $2,400 difference is a lot of dough.
So Roin's direct price was 980 Euros for the front (about $990 today's exchange rate, and 1280 Euros for the rear $1293). So total $4,566 plus shipping. 6 - 10 weeks from order to delivery. I already got a new set of tires waiting for them too.
Again, thank you everyone for your input and guidance. Couldn't have done this without all of your help.
Please post pictures of the finished product once you receive and get mounted. I may do the same thing.
Nice looking car. Are those Hall "Ultra Wheels" on it now?
Thank you. Yes, that is correct. I believe 10x15 up front and 13x15 in the rear. 285/40/15 Pirelli P7 Corsa Classics up front and 345/35/15 Pirelli PZero in the rear. I bought the Corsa Classics from England because, at the time, I could not find any Centurato P7 tires mentioned earlier in this post. The Corsa tires are borderline track only tires, with minimal threads...mostly slicks, however they are street tires (summer ultra performance). But the car is never driven in the rain anyway. They pick up every little pebble on the road. But man, do they ever grip the asphalt. Somehow - and I don't know how - I don't have a single stone chip behind the wheels. Or anywhere else actually.
OK, so my order was confirmed today by Andrea Roin. He will let me know when it is ready for delivery, at which time I will pay him. He did not need/want any money or deposit up front, which surprised me. Given the dollar amount, I would have been happy paying him half up front just so he knows I am not a fake customer. Since these wheels are made to order, I know I would have wanted half or all of the payment up front.
Again, once received and installed on the car, I will post photos. Can't wait...
Fuzz - I sent you a PM
So my wheels are ready from Roin, and are being shipped tomorrow from Italy. Price was exactly the same as he had quoted me before, plus $500 for shipping cost. He said he will provide me with a tracking number tomorrow once they are shipped. Can't wait to see these bad boys...
Sweet. Can't wait to see them either. Did you get your P7's? Can you post a couple pics? Did you get from Lucas. Curious what the date codes are on both the Fronts and Rears. thanks much
Yes, I did get my P7s. I ordered one from Lucas, because when I called, the fellow who answered said he has only one in stock, and didn't know when he would get another one. So I ordered the one he had. Ten minutes after I ordered it, I looked on Craigslist to see if any are on there. Now you need to know I NEVER shop on Craigslist, so I don't know what possessed me to check it. But a set of four (two front, two rear) P7s were listed there by another Pantera owner named Randy. He said the tires were only a few months old, and sent me photos of them, which seemed to confirm that. So I took a chance and bought all four, including shipping, for $1,000. Then I promptly called Lucas back and cancelled my order without any issues. He said he had not processed my order yet, so there was nothing to cancel from his end. And when the tires that I bought on Craigslist arrived, I was dumbfounded because they looked like they had never been installed on a wheel. Don't know what the date codes are on them, but I will check them. I just know they look brand new. I will post new photos as soon as I receive the wheels and install them on the car.
I hope everyone had a great Christmas and New Year's.
OMG, the $hit I have gone through with U.S. Customs and UPS to get these wheels delivered is making me lose my hair. Communication with them is at or near zero, with them just sending me an email saying I owe duties on these, but they do not provide any information on how to pay it. They claim they have left me a voice message, but after days of phone calls they admitted they do not have my phone number or email...so how did they leave me this message???
UPS has been marginally better. They would not release the packages until $41.66 in fees are paid. Note that I already paid $500 for shipping. but get this, they provide no way in their email or website for me to pay this fee.
Multiple phone calls and days later, I found a phone number through which UPS will accept these fees, and was just able to pay this last $41.66. Now they claim they will release the shipments and deliver them to me...but they don't know exactly when.
I suspect U.S. Customs will send me a bill. Years ago my wife bought a Ferrari wallet for my birthday from Italy for $400 (it was an online purchase on Ferrari's website). About a month after I received the wallet the U.S. Customs sent me a duty fee of $187 to be paid to them for the wallet. Based on that ridiculous experience, I am scared to think how much extortion money they are going to get out of me for these wheels. Sometimes I feel the MAFIA runs our government.
Sorry, I am having a bad day over this and I am venting...
Hopefully the wheels will arrive undamaged and will look great on the car.
I told you this would happen. Paying $40 is nothing if you get them safely. They would not release mine saying they were illegal.
I'm surprised UPS isn't being more specific as to what the $41.66 is for. Normally, prior to the shipment arriving, you'll get an itemized invoice from them, for duty, taxes and brokerage. UPS allows you to pay it in advance, so the shipment is pre-cleared through Customs and comes straight to you without delay. Obviously, UPS knows what the rate of duty is for automotive wheels but $41.66 seems like too small an amount. Perhaps that's just for the brokerage fee. Here's a tip: get the shipper to write the word "vintage" on the invoice and make sure it doesn't say "magnesium" anywhere. I believe the duty rate is lower for vintage car parts (25 years old or older) and they might consider magnesium to be a hazardous material that requires special handling. Make sure the shipper puts your phone number and e-mail address on the invoice too.