Does anyone have any experience with magnesium rims vs. aluminum ones? I am looking to purchase a set of Group IV gold rims and was wondering beside magnesium being lighter, what are the pros and cons? Back in the day magnesium wheels were prone to cracking and oxidation. Is that still the case? Any informative response is greatly appreciated.
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The advantage is as you state, lighter for lower unsprung weight. Are you purchasing a set of 40 year old magnesium rims or a new set from Marvic?
I apologize, but I don't know who is Marvic.
I was looking at the rims on Mr. Fiat. They have magnesium as well aluminum alloy Group IV wheels listed.
Please inform me as to Marvic.
Thank you in advance.
Thank you husker. I wonder if Mr. Fiat gets their wheels from Marvic.
I have read numerous posts that state sand gravity casted magnesium wheels are prone to cracking, and they are nearly impossible to repair. Alternatively, it is impossible for forged magnesium wheels to crack. The cost must be a large factor as to why manufacturers rarely do forged magnesium wheels anymore.
Having said that, any members experience cracking issues with new magnesium wheels which were casted as opposed to forged? Magnesium wheels are a huge investment, and I am trying to decide between functionality and price vs. originality. I am willing to fork up the money for magnesium rims, but not if they only last a few years.
Mr. Fiat gets the magnesium rims from Marvic and WAS getting the aluminum rims from ROIN in Italy. Marvic was only making a magnesium based wheel. There was demand for replacement mag rims for the vintage race crowd and Marvic stepped up. ROIN makes a number of different rim styles for multiple vintage cars. Search the web and see their sites.
And you can save yourself a huge mark-up by buying direct. Contact the two makers directly.
Thank you panterapatt. It is much appreciated.
If it were me, I would buy the ROIN rims. He can paint them any color you want. Running a wide magnesium-based rim on the street would not be my preference.
Magnesium rims will start to work harden after about ten years, eventually possibly resulting in cracking which, if it gets bad enough, will result in failure. This can be prevented by periodically checking the wheels for cracks (magafluxing does not work so Zyglow dye testing is required to do this), then annealing (stress-relieving) the wheels by baking and then slowly cooling them in a specific way. Cracks, if they are not too bad, can be welded but this takes finding an experience welder who can work with magnesium - good luck with that one. Corrosion is also a very bad problem if the finish on the wheel gets scratched (or if someone repainted the wheel without the required chromate primer to seal it) and moisture is allowed into the porous magnesium. Outgassing is an issue too, but too complex to get into here.
I know of at least one Pantera that was in a very serious crash because a corroded Campy failed.
In terms of durability, it seems to me that would depend on two factors. First, I would expect the mileage would have a bearing on it, and most of our cars are not daily drivers, so I would be surprised if the work hardening rate would not be commensurately low. Second, if a wheel is well maintained, and with any scratches being immediately re-sealed, the corrosion should be limited (although I inspect the hub area for corrosion whenever the wheels are off the car because that is a contact point on which I have observed it is not possible to maintain a perfect seal). In short, if your car is not a daily beater with bad curb rash, I would think you would be safe going for a lot longer than ten years without Zyglow testing and annealing - but this is just my personal opinion which is worth exactly what you are paying for it.
Mike Drew and Jack DeRyke have written about this quite comprehensively here and elsewhere, and I suggest looking that up. Or, if there is enough interest, I can re-post the information.
All this was also explained in the February 2018 POCA Newsletter which is available in the club archives for download.
I have purchased 2 sets of magnesium Group 4 wheels from Marvic, the wheels are a work of art and Marvic are wonderful people to deal with. The current US$/Euro FX rate would make them a bargain price too!
Note that Marvic only produces the rears in the Group 4 race version of 14" wide, they work well with the 345/35 PIrelli tire and fill the flares a little more than the 13" road version and those came originally with a spacer anyway.
I recently replied to a question on the e-mail regarding wheel weights,
10" 2 slot Campagnolo 19lbs
10" 10 spoke Marvic repro Campi 14lbs
13" 10 spoke OEM Campagnolo 16.5lbs
14" 10 spoke Marvic repro Campi 17lbs
Looks like Roin have added to their De Tomaso range, I don't have comparative weights for their aluminum wheels.
When I last communicated with Andrea Roin which was a few years ago:
1. prices are Euro 850,00 each front 10"x15" and Euro 950,00 each rear 13"x15".
2. I confirm wide 10" and 13" x 15" (as original)
3. The backspacing is fixed and measured front 115 mm and rear 135 mm
4. material used is aluminium 6082T6 in two pieces welded
5. Delivery time at today is about 5 weeks from confirm order
6. wheel are painted as original (nitro paint). You can choose color.
For further information please ask.
Best regards
Andrea Roin
RoinTechnology
info@rointechnology.it
www.rointechnology.com
Via Monte Comun, 35 37057 San Giovanni Lupatoto - VERONA - ITALY
Tel. +39-0458779288 - Fax +39-0459786925 - Mob. +39-3402735464
This is great information; thank you. I sent them an email and hopefully they will respond tomorrow. I will keep you posted.
Julian, this was news to me re: Roin Aluminum Campy Group 4 wheels - "material used is aluminium 6082T6 in two pieces welded".
Do you know if the Marvic wheels are also made in two pieces, welded together?
The Roin wheels were always a 2-piece welded rim. Just like most "custom" wheels that Foose and Boyd and Phil Schmidt make (made). When done, they are solid as a cast wheel. The Maric is a cast wheel per their website and the foundry they use. Roin also make a 3-piece design with split rims and a bolt-up center like the Gotti, BBS, etc. I see that Roin now make at 15" diameter 14" wide GP IV rim which is what I would buy and mate with the 10" front rim. I am thinking of moving in that direction and selling my Gotti's.
I received a response from Marvic today, so here is their most current pricing for their magnesium Gr4 rims:
Pantera Gr4 10"x15"...1,900 Euro each
Pantera Gr4 14"x15"...2,100 Euro each
Freight they say will be around 500 Euro for the set of 4 wheels to the U.S. with a 10 week delivery from purchase order. 30% up front at order, and the rest of the balance is due when wheels are ready and before shipment.
wowzaa! so about 9 grand for wheels. Tires are another 2.5. Mounting them (very carefully) and balance. $12K.
Question, do these need longer wheel studs than normal. I had been "told" the real Campy GP IV rims needed to have a longer stud installed. Was never able to confirm this with those that own them. Julian would know for certain.
Did you contact Roin to get updated prices?
The Group 4, GT5/5S cars have longer wheel studs to accommodate the 10 spoke magnesium wheels.
$2.5K for tires? At what discount store? $3.6K for all 4 corners is much more accurate as of a few days ago. Pirelli P Zero 345/34/15 in the rear and Pirelli Centurato P7 285/40/15 in the front. Not to mention the fronts are nearly impossible to find.
I have contacted Roin twice and have not heard back yet. Sent an email as well and am waiting for a response.
The new pirelli P7’s are $600 for the fronts and $650 for the rears. Suggest you google Lucas Tire in Long Beach . They are in stock.
Or Longstone tire in the UK. They ship internationally.
Thank you panterapatt. Seriously thank you. I had gotten my previous two rear ones from TireRack for almost $1,200 a piece. With tax and shipping I know I paid well over $2,400 just for the rears. The fronts I found just ONE on line for $700. That is why I was saying $3.6K for all four corners. Now I see that is obviously a rip off.
Lucas Tire has them both in stock for the price you stated. Did I say thank you?
You are welcome. Longstone looks like they are out of stock on the 285's. My understanding is shipping to the US is reasonable from them.
Sent yet another email to Roin and still waiting for a response. I might have to purchase an international calling card and try phoning them.
Is there a Roin dealer in the states? I could not find one online.
Mr Fiat is a Roin dealer.
Just spoke with Andrea Roin over the phone. A nice guy. Ended up ordering a set of gold colored Campagnolo Gr4 wheels from him, two for the front (10x15) and two for the rear (14x15). Saved myself approximately $2,400 by ordering directly from Roin rather than going with Mr. Fiat. I feel bad a little, because David at Mr. Fiat was such a nice guy. But holy crap, $2,400 difference is a lot of dough.
So Roin's direct price was 980 Euros for the front (about $990 today's exchange rate, and 1280 Euros for the rear $1293). So total $4,566 plus shipping. 6 - 10 weeks from order to delivery. I already got a new set of tires waiting for them too.
Again, thank you everyone for your input and guidance. Couldn't have done this without all of your help.
Sincerely,
Fuzz
Please post pictures of the finished product once you receive and get mounted. I may do the same thing.
Nice looking car. Are those Hall "Ultra Wheels" on it now?
Thank you. Yes, that is correct. I believe 10x15 up front and 13x15 in the rear. 285/40/15 Pirelli P7 Corsa Classics up front and 345/35/15 Pirelli PZero in the rear. I bought the Corsa Classics from England because, at the time, I could not find any Centurato P7 tires mentioned earlier in this post. The Corsa tires are borderline track only tires, with minimal threads...mostly slicks, however they are street tires (summer ultra performance). But the car is never driven in the rain anyway. They pick up every little pebble on the road. But man, do they ever grip the asphalt. Somehow - and I don't know how - I don't have a single stone chip behind the wheels. Or anywhere else actually.
OK, so my order was confirmed today by Andrea Roin. He will let me know when it is ready for delivery, at which time I will pay him. He did not need/want any money or deposit up front, which surprised me. Given the dollar amount, I would have been happy paying him half up front just so he knows I am not a fake customer. Since these wheels are made to order, I know I would have wanted half or all of the payment up front.
Again, once received and installed on the car, I will post photos. Can't wait...
Fuzz - I sent you a PM
So my wheels are ready from Roin, and are being shipped tomorrow from Italy. Price was exactly the same as he had quoted me before, plus $500 for shipping cost. He said he will provide me with a tracking number tomorrow once they are shipped. Can't wait to see these bad boys...
Sweet. Can't wait to see them either. Did you get your P7's? Can you post a couple pics? Did you get from Lucas. Curious what the date codes are on both the Fronts and Rears. thanks much
Yes, I did get my P7s. I ordered one from Lucas, because when I called, the fellow who answered said he has only one in stock, and didn't know when he would get another one. So I ordered the one he had. Ten minutes after I ordered it, I looked on Craigslist to see if any are on there. Now you need to know I NEVER shop on Craigslist, so I don't know what possessed me to check it. But a set of four (two front, two rear) P7s were listed there by another Pantera owner named Randy. He said the tires were only a few months old, and sent me photos of them, which seemed to confirm that. So I took a chance and bought all four, including shipping, for $1,000. Then I promptly called Lucas back and cancelled my order without any issues. He said he had not processed my order yet, so there was nothing to cancel from his end. And when the tires that I bought on Craigslist arrived, I was dumbfounded because they looked like they had never been installed on a wheel. Don't know what the date codes are on them, but I will check them. I just know they look brand new. I will post new photos as soon as I receive the wheels and install them on the car.
I hope everyone had a great Christmas and New Year's.
sounds good.
OMG, the $hit I have gone through with U.S. Customs and UPS to get these wheels delivered is making me lose my hair. Communication with them is at or near zero, with them just sending me an email saying I owe duties on these, but they do not provide any information on how to pay it. They claim they have left me a voice message, but after days of phone calls they admitted they do not have my phone number or email...so how did they leave me this message???
UPS has been marginally better. They would not release the packages until $41.66 in fees are paid. Note that I already paid $500 for shipping. but get this, they provide no way in their email or website for me to pay this fee.
Multiple phone calls and days later, I found a phone number through which UPS will accept these fees, and was just able to pay this last $41.66. Now they claim they will release the shipments and deliver them to me...but they don't know exactly when.
I suspect U.S. Customs will send me a bill. Years ago my wife bought a Ferrari wallet for my birthday from Italy for $400 (it was an online purchase on Ferrari's website). About a month after I received the wallet the U.S. Customs sent me a duty fee of $187 to be paid to them for the wallet. Based on that ridiculous experience, I am scared to think how much extortion money they are going to get out of me for these wheels. Sometimes I feel the MAFIA runs our government.
Sorry, I am having a bad day over this and I am venting...
Hopefully the wheels will arrive undamaged and will look great on the car.
I told you this would happen. Paying $40 is nothing if you get them safely. They would not release mine saying they were illegal.
I'm surprised UPS isn't being more specific as to what the $41.66 is for. Normally, prior to the shipment arriving, you'll get an itemized invoice from them, for duty, taxes and brokerage. UPS allows you to pay it in advance, so the shipment is pre-cleared through Customs and comes straight to you without delay. Obviously, UPS knows what the rate of duty is for automotive wheels but $41.66 seems like too small an amount. Perhaps that's just for the brokerage fee. Here's a tip: get the shipper to write the word "vintage" on the invoice and make sure it doesn't say "magnesium" anywhere. I believe the duty rate is lower for vintage car parts (25 years old or older) and they might consider magnesium to be a hazardous material that requires special handling. Make sure the shipper puts your phone number and e-mail address on the invoice too.
My wheels were shipped FedEx. They seemed to have their act together regarding emailing and calling me. UPS seems kind of "jacked" these days.
Update: Wheels are scheduled to arrive today. UPS will only tell me it will be sometime between 8 AM and 9 PM; and they will not notify me when the driver is on his way, nor will they notify me when the item is dropped off. She said they cannot text me with updates. Are we in the 21st century or not? Or is she just lazy and stubborn?
The UPS lady on the phone further proceeded to say they will just drop them off at the doorstep and I can get them when I get home. Hmmmm.... And I was nice as pie the whole time with her, so one can't even argue that I (somehow) pissed her off and she was getting even with me.
I have a family member that was willing to go sit in my house until they arrive or I have finished my work-day and get to go home, whichever comes first.
In this case the shipper used UPS; it was not my choice. However, if I ever need to ship something, I do believe I will be leaning toward using some other career.
Come on Group IV wheels, make this wait and money worth it by looking amazing on the car.
Just curious, would anyone want the Hall Ultra wheels and Pirelli tires on my car now? My tires have very few miles on them. You can see the style of the wheels on the photo I posted earlier in this post.
If you track your shipment on the UPS web site, one of the options offered to you is SMS (or e-mail) notification of delivery.
Thank you for everyone's input; however, read on if you want to know what happened with UPS, or if you even consider using them to mail your next package. This post will be long, and will be all about UPS, so if you are not interested in reading about human incompetence and stupidity on an epic scale, just move on to another post:
On January 10th (two days ago), I paid $41.66 to UPS using my VISA card, for what they said I owed to them for customs. OK, I get that. Not a big deal, right? So I called the UPS customs broker, per the email instructions that I had received, and paid them, after which they emailed me back a receipt that I had paid the amount, complete with a UPS logo, their email address, authorization number,...you get the picture. Legit, that I paid, with proof in hand.
Yesterday, the 11th, the website was updated that the packages were released to be delivered, but I owed $41.66, that I can pay online or COD to the driver. I called the number which I paid through, and the UPS agent confirmed yes, I have paid it, and package have been released to be delivered. Oh good. I figured I will wait for the delivery, and show the driver my receipt and the paid-in-full email I received from UPS. That should settle that with no issues. Or so I thought.
This morning, the 12th, I received an email from UPS saying the package will be delivered by 9 PM. What a wide window, right? But that is ok, because fortunately my 77-year old mother lives close by, and I asked her to come sit at my house and watch for the delivery until it arrives, or if it is after I finish my work, I will be home and can take delivery myself. I also advised her that if the driver says I owe any monies, for her to tell him/her that it is paid for, that I have a receipt, and for him to check with his center/hub for confirmation. I also told my nice mother to call me if he does not believe it, and I would rush home to show him/her the receipt in person.
So shortly after 1 PM, two hours before my workday was to end, my mother texts me and says he is here with the packages. I text back I will leave work immediately and will be home to move the wheels inside. (She is old and due to health issues, cannot lift heavy objects.) I rush home.
On the way home, dear old mom calls me and tells me the driver said I owed $46.11, and that he cannot wait for me, so he left with my wheels. What???? Yes son, she says, after he unloaded them, and I told him they are paid for, he loaded them back up and left, saying they are not paid for. She did tell him I am on my way home to show him the receipt, but he said he does not have time to wait for me, but he will be in the area for 20 minutes, if he gets home, come find me on the road.
I asked her to follow him while he makes his deliveries and tell me where they are, and I will catch up, show him the receipt, and all will be well. Right? Wrong.
Within a minutes I catch up with them (she told me where he had stopped to make a deliver). Got out of my car, driver approached me after he finished delivery to a neighbor, and I showed him the electronic receipt for full amount paid from UPS. He says he is sorry, but he cannot release the packages because the pad in his hand says I owe $46.11, and unless I pay, he will not give me my packages. Literally no amount of reason would change his mind. I said how could you possibly say I have to pay that exact amount when I have a receipt from UPS, your own company, saying I paid in full with a credit card, complete with receipt number and all? He would not budge.
I asked him to call his supervisor, which he reluctantly did. Same result. This idiot, (we will call him Daniel, because that was his name), tells me sorry, I won't have my driver release the packages until you give him the money. I repeated, and repeated, and repeated again and again that it is paid for, that I am literally showing the driver the receipt, which the driver acknowledged to Daniel that it is real, and it is from UPS. Daniel said no, pay the driver or I will have him leave. I said the packages are paid for, and I have the receipt, so at this point they are my property, so if his driver leaves, that is theft of my property. At this point UPS has zero claim to my property. I asked him, "Do you understand that?" I told him I will forward the email to him that I received from UPS which shows I paid, and he said no, he doesn't need it, because his system shows I did not pay. I told him I will not let the truck leave with my packages, that I will block the road (we were in a cul-de-sac and the only way out could have been blocked by me if I really wanted to be a real you know what). He said, "Please don't block the driver and the truck and let the truck go." I said the driver is free to leave, but my packages stay. He didn't budge, told his driver to shut the door and leave, which he did. Leaving me standing in the middle of the road looking dumbfounded as to what had just transpired.
I ran inside the house and got on the phone with the UPS customs broker center, and quickly got a female agent to speak with me. She confirmed it is all paid for, that I owe NOTHING, and the driver should have left me the packages, and that his supervisor HAD NO RIGHT TO OVERRULE THE EMAIL RECEIPT FROM THE UPS CUSTOMS BROKER. She put me on hold, came back 10 minutes later, and said that she saw they had sent a COD RELEASE email to that UPS hub/center, but no one had opened the damn email. She said she will send a second one, but at this point there is nothing else she can do. I asked for her to find me this hub's address, which she did. I drove there.
Got to the main entrance, and spoke with nice young man, who was the on-duty security guard. Explained everything to him. He said that was insane, but he did not know who he could contact. I said how can that be possible? (This hub/center IS HUGE.) You can't find a supervisor in this facility, which looks to be over 200 acres? Maybe larger? He said he works for the security company, and he doesn't know who is inside the building. I asked him to call his security manager, which he reluctantly did. The manager told him there is no one in the entire facility that could check emails to see if a COD RELEASE was sent by the UPS CUSTOMS BROKER. Nothing he can do for me. EXCUSE ME? In the year 2023, no one can check emails in a UPS facility? Nope, he said. (You can only imagine how dizzy I got with this reply.)
I called the UPS CUSTOMS BROKER on the phone again, and this time got a supervisor. She was dumbfounded by what I was saying. She said she just checked, and while I was driving there, two more emails were sent to that center to release my packages, for a total of four emails, but still no one was willing to open the emails. I told the young security guard that at this point, this UPS facility is in violation of the crimes code by keeping my property from me. It is my property, I have proven it, and by them refusing to give it to me, they are committing theft. He got the point, or maybe felt sorry for me, and said he would walk me back and I can speak to his manager.
So he walked me in this huge facility, past the metal detectors and all, while I still had the UPS CUSTOMS BROKER supervisor on the speakerphone. We entered the main building (MASSIVE BUILDING), and were half-way to the end when he got a text form his manager telling him to escort me outside, that I am not allowed inside. So I walked back out. Still on the phone with the UPS CUSTOMS supervisor, who kept telling me about all the problems the are having with that center. I get it. Yes, they are incompetent, but even incompetency has to have a limit. Right? Wrong again. I found out people can really lower the bar when one believes there is no room to lower it any further.
After five minutes, Daniel comes outside and tells me to leave. Just like that. I said hold on sir, you have my packages, which I have paid for, and I have the printed receipt in hand, and the original email on my phone which I am willing to show you, but you won't give my packages. He told me that is because his system tells him I have not paid. The UPS CUSTOMS BROKER jumps in and yells through the speakerphone, WAIT A SECOND, THIS MAN HAS PAID ALL HIS DUES, I HAVE PROOF OF IT, I SENT IT TO YOU, HE HAS A COPY IN HIS HAND, YOU REFUSE TO OPEN THE EMAILS WE HAVE SENT TO YOU, AND YOU ARE TELLING HIM YOUR SYSTEM, WHICH I AM LOOKING AT, SAYS HE HAS NOT PAID? Daniel says: Who is this? Are you from UPS? She says YES, and he better go check his emails, because this is ridiculous. Daniel refused to go check his emails or whatever email account the COD RELEASE was sent to. Yes, for real he refused to do that. This went on for a while, she telling him what to do, and he standing there in whatever fantasy world he lives in. Finally she had enough, and with all the authority she could gather in her voice said, "I am a manager at the UPS CUSTOMS BROKER and I am telling you this man has paid in full, and you are to release his packages to him immediately." He said, ok, since you are a manager, I will take your word and release it. But they are not here. They are still in the truck, somewhere. He hangs up on her. Just like that.
Turns to me and says, "You can't come in here. And you can't tell my driver he cannot leave or you will block the road." I replied, "Do you now understand these packages were paid for? Do you understand at that point they are my property? And do you understand that at that point, you have no legal right to keep them from me?" He said, "They were still in our possession, so they were our responsibility." (Yeah, epic stupidity . This moron just didn't get it.) I said, "They are only in your possession because you refuse to release them, when they are rightfully mine, and you, with proof in hand, had and still have no right to keep them at all." He said, "Well, that's our policy." And I replied, "Your policy is not the law. The law is the law. Release my property."
He claims he will let the driver deliver them to me tonight, by 9 PM. So here I sit, waiting for my wheels. 5:05 PM and still not here. Four more hours to go. We shall see what happens next, but I doubt they will be delivered.
Maybe I should have paid $2,000 more and just bought them from Mr. Fiat and avoided dealing with UPS.
Give a man an ounce of authority, and he will act as if he is The King.
It’s hard to think clearly in a situation like that, I totally get it. I too have a couple of lovely incompetent, UPS stories.
But I think the easiest solution would’ve been to pay the driver another $41.66, take delivery of your wheels, and then call up your credit company and put a cancellation complaint on the charge given to the driver. In your case, a simple forwarding of your paid in full email would easily prove your case.
fingers crossed the wheels are safely in your possession by 9 PM. 🤞🤞
Larry
That is awful. you will get them. Just a real PITA.
Here is the follow-up: and yes, it is hard to imagine a human being can be this big an a$$hole. About an hour ago the same driver delivered the wheels. Turned out to be a really nice guy, and from the moment he arrived he started apologizing. He said his supervisor, Daniel, is a really big D!CK and he is an a$$hole to everyone. This driver said, are you ready?... "I found out we had the release email all along, that he had gotten it in the morning, and knew about it. He was just being an a$$hole for no reason. I believed you the entire time. I knew the receipt was real, but I had to follow his orders or he would have me fired. He did this entire thing intentionally." My poor mother was standing right next to me. She almost lost her 77-year old mind. I offered to buy the kid dinner, but he saw my Ferrari F430 and asked if he could instead get a ride in that. I told him sure, next nice sunny day when he is off, just come over and I will even let him drive it.
Wheels arrived. I need to open the packages. I just have taken the last hour to calm down after being told Daniel (yeah, that guy we all have met at one point or another in our life) had done this knowing the money had been paid. There is a special place in hell for people like that.
I don't know what else to say. I am just sitting here sad that we have people like this amongst us.
A letter to UPS upper management is called for.
ok so let's see the wheels!
The craftsmanship on this wheel is superb. Still have to open the other boxes, but I expect them all to be this perfect.
Holy shit are they beautiful. Is there a center cap for them?
Beautiful indeed! Very nice.
No center caps. Where do I get them? I know Hall Pantera has some. Any others out there? Also, where do I get black lug nuts? Or should I just paint mine black? Although I am not sure they would last long.
I assume these reproductions duplicated the OEM center hole dimensions. If that is correct, then I would just give Tara at Hall a phone call.
Larry
Both UPS & FedEx have no knowledge what the import duties are beforehand and these are always added costs along with a customs brokerage fee, even to Canada (as many owners have found out when vendors ship UPS or FedEx to our northern friends).
I filled out an US Customs form HS7 for Marvic, who put the HTS code on my invoices, along with the magnesium alloy and they do state 'for competition use only'. I paid 2.5% duty + fees of ~$260, they pay US Customs on my behalf and release and deliver to my door.
I assume the Roin wheels use the standard 60 degree cone angle lug nuts. You should check with them. Summit has plenty of choices in silver and black. Perhaps vendors have them as well. If Roin used the standard wheel center, it needs to have the retainer snap ring and should have a groove in the wheel for it.
Can you weigh them? I have weights for all the other style wheels and would be interested to know what they weigh in comparison to magnesium. They certainly look the part, indistinguishable from the Marvic visually.
Rears weighed in at 24.5 lbs each. Fronts weighed in at 20.2 lbs each.
I hope this helps.
Looks like the studs will have to be changed out for longer ones. Currently there is approximately 1/2 in. of threads for lug nuts to grab onto. Anyone have any experience in this arena? What do I need? I think the stock ones are 12mm x 1.5. There is exactly 1 in. of thread on these studs when the wheel is off and I measure it from end to end of the thread.
The lug nut threads down into the wheel. That's is why I asked you what cone angle the rims require. Normally a 60 degree lug nut is used. You do not need a long stud sticking out beyond the wheel or the nut will never seat unless you use lug nuts with no cover them which looks not so good and unnecessary.
Thanks for the weights, very useful, which compares to16.5 lbs and 14 lbs for magnesium, so not giving up too much unsprung weight.
The rule of thumb is thread engagement should be at minimum the dia. of the stud, so sounds as though you are right at that. The Group 4 and 5 cars had longer wheel studs as the wheel hubs are thicker. Most vendors sell a GT5 stud, but changing the rear will require dismantling the hub assembly and stub axle removal.
Took a while to find but here is the black lug nuts.
https://lugnutguys.com/product...vnln1ce8ayyuhP1pEoE0
Ok, here is the question: How much thread has to be exposed and out of the wheel for the lug nut to grab onto for it to be considered safe? With the current studs, there is only 1/2 inch of thread that extends past the wheel's stud holes. The stud holes are very small in diameter, only 13 mm, which is 0.512 in. The black lug nuts pictured above by tsolo look really good; however, the shank diameter is 0.61 in. and thus would not fit inside these wheels' stud holes. I need lug nuts with a shank diameter maximum of 13 mm, or 0.512 in. I can't seem to find them. Does anyone know where I can get some? I am trying to avoid changing out the studs, and as joules explained, it sounds like a pain in the butt.
I don't think you can find a shank nut with Ø13mm OD and M12 thread. That would cause a thin wall thickness that wouldn't carry any load.
-Sami
That is what I am afraid of, and you just confirmed it with your opinion. Thank you.
I think I am left with the only safe option of having to change out the studs. There is so much more work involved with that. I was hoping this was an easier and less expensive project than it has proven to be.
The chart David supplied looks very helpful. I must have missed something though. Wouldn't your Gt5 being a wide body have came from the factory with longer studs?
I would ask Roin for his advice. Can you take a close up picture of the hole area?
I looked at a picture I had of the Roin wheel. your stud is sticking out 1/2" from WHERE on the wheel. The outer surface, the inner cone area? I assume you mean the outer surface. If yes, then you have more stud down inside the cone taper. I would not use studs with a shank as shown. Get a stud that has the correct taper angle and if I believe it will be fine. You will have way more than 1/2" of thread engagement. Send a picture of the wheel on the car.
1/2" from the inner cone area, so there will be 1/2" thread engagement with a conical lug nut. But, at 12 mm diameter, according to various posts, 12 mm is apparently all the engagement it needs, right? (Rule of thumb being thread engagement should equal diameter of lug nut.) 1/2" is 12.7 mm. Or am I missing something?
I also asked Roin, and he said there is no need to change the studs. I just want to be absolutely positive. A lot of folks on this forum are a lot more knowledgeable than I am about the subject.
I was suggesting you ask Roin what type of lug nut to use.
Sorry panterapatt, I misunderstood you. I did email Roin and asked Andrea to provide me with prices on the matching lug nuts, which he has. Given the hell I went through with UPS in getting the wheels, I really wish I had ordered lug nuts from Roin when I ordered the wheels. Waiting to hear back from him.
Also, when I get home, I will put one wheel on the car and take a picture and post it. That should give a better idea as to how far the studs come through the wheel's holes.
Just want to thank everyone for their input thus far.
Sounds like a good plan. I would try one of your existing lug nuts on the wheel and count the number of threads you get
Assuming the wheels are machined specifically for a Pantera and are hub-centric you don't need or want lug nuts with a shank. As stated by others, the seat angle and thread engagement are the main concerns. Confirming the seat angle is a good idea. Minimum thread engagement being equal to the thread diameter is valid. Do the wheels have seat inserts? Once the wheel/tire package is mounted on the car and torqued to spec and you drive around a bit, I suggest rechecking the torque after it cools down.
Correct, lug nuts with shanks do not fit the new wheels at all.
Roin got back to me that they no longer carry the lug nuts.
So here is what I learned. I put the Hall Ultra wheel back on and the lug nut with the shank turned exactly 8 turns before it got tight enough that I could not turn it by hand. I went to the local auto store and bought a M12x1.5 conical lug nut (60 degree angle) and tried it on the new Roin wheels. It turned exactly 4 1/2 times before I could not turn it any more. It sat perfectly, so the seat angle is correct at 60 degrees; however, the studs are definitely not long enough for these wheels and need to be changed out.
And to answer otis' earlier question, I covered the history of my car in another post, but the short of it is that it was imported to the U.S. from Europe (not sold through Lincoln/Ford dealerships here) and was later converted into the GT5 some time in the 1980s, so it does not have the longer studs. It is now obvious to me that the wider Hall Ultra wheels were designed to work with the standard studs.
Is removing the studs a DIY project? I am pretty handy around cars, but I haven't done one outside of a dune buggy about 30 years ago, which I recall was rather simple.
Not following. If the exposed thread is 1/2" and you are turning the nut down into the wheel, clearly MORE than 1/2" of thread is being consumed by the nut. If you need a minimum of the diameter of the stud (1/2") of engagement, you have MORE than 1/2" happening. FORGET what the Hall wheel turns are. Gary's wheel has a thinner center, that's all - irrelevant data.
Changing all the studs is a BIG job. take the entire real suspension off.
If you have more than 1/2 an inch of stud being consumed when you thread the nut on which you have to have, I would run them. Remember, there is zero value in having a stud longer than what the nut needs.
I also do not believe Roin purposely made these such that the studs needs to be replaced. He has sold plenty of the wheels.
That is what I would do.
A suggestion to determine how deep the studs are actually engaging with the new lug nuts…..
Roll up some small balls from aluminum foil or modeling clay and stick them inside a lug nut, then install it to its full depth. Might take a few trials to get it right, start small, but that should tell you how far the threads are engaging into the lug nut.
Larry
panterapatt, only 1/2in is exposed, meaning that is all that comes out of the beginning of the 60 degree cone of the wheel, it does not extend 1/2 in. out at all. Start to finish, only 1/2in can be seen.
Larry, just measured it three times. Exactly 3/8 in. of the thread is engaged.
I wish 1/2 in. or more of the thread was being consumed, but it is not. I completely agree there is no value in having longer studs than what the nut needs. I don't want these to look like truck tires with obnoxiously long lug nuts. I paid way too much money thus far to ruin this by silly looking long lug nuts. I want the shortest stud/lug nut combo that is safe.
I measured the Hall Ultra wheels for comparison. If these had 8 full turns of engagement, then the value of it to me would be in the fact I ran those Ultra wheels with 8 turns of thread engagement for years, so I would feel safe if these would also have 8 turns of thread engagement. But they do not. 4.5 turns and 3/8 in. engagement does not give me any confidence.
If 1/2" sticks out then it is engaging 1/2". Why would it be less than what is exposed.
Switching wheel studs is a weekend job, assuming you have the correct tools, parts and equipment. You also need to know how to do it! You should be able to find all the info you need here. If you aren't comfortable doing it yourself, have a Pantera vendor do it. Don't trust your local mechanic. The stub axle needs to be pressed out of the upright, to access the studs. Make sure you know the length (minimum and maximum) of studs you need and that the GT-5 studs do indeed fall within that range. While you have the uprights "out" and apart, I'd do all of the usual maintenance we Pantera owners do when our uprights are apart. Replace the bearings (GTS mod?), turn or replace the rotors, check axles for signs of wear, etc., etc.
@panterapatt posted:I also do not believe Roin purposely made these such that the studs needs to be replaced. He has sold plenty of the wheels.
These are copies of the original Campi wheel, they have thicker hubs, the Group 4 / GT5 / GT5-S cars these wheels were designed for had longer studs, in fact so long that a spacer was also used behind the wheel!
Typical DeTomaso. Instead of using longer studs because they wanted to use a spacer (like Porsche used to do on wide body 911s), they had to use a spacer because the studs were too long!
IIRC, aren’t the DeTomaso studs hard to source? <Edit… Maybe not!>
Fuzz, I think you’ve got a beautiful set of wheels, and I want to see them on the car, and wish you the best of luck…
I just recall discussions of the splined segment of commonly available studs being too small for the mating holes in the hubs…. And the part that made this stand out in my mind is a discussion that tack welds (as people have used to retain the bolts) won’t hold due to dissimilar materials?
Hope I’ve got this mixed up, and maybe someone can chime in and correct me…
<Edit - Here’s a link… hopefully helpful!>
Hall Pantera has a 1" longer stud. $480 for the set of 20.
I wonder if your stub axles could be modified to use cheaper, stronger 1/2"-20 studs? Dennis Quella would surly know. He even sells DeTomaso logo lug nuts in 1/2"-20 thread.
Some aftermarket axles (eg. Mark Williams) have holes machined for both OEM studs and 1/2"-20 screw-in studs.
You have stated that you only need another 1/8" of thread. Since the wheel center appears to be thicker than your previous wheel's center, a machine shop could spotface the lug nut holes and cut the taper deeper. Just a thought.
John
I thought of that too, John. It is a solid idea with one exception. The conical insert in the wheels where the studs come through is shaped like an ice cream cone, and it looks like a Y if you were looking at it from the side. These inserts look like to be steel, and not aluminum like the rest of the wheel, and they have been definitely machine pressed into the wheel. They do not appear to be thick enough to endure deepening. Looks like if I would machine it deeper, the top V part meeting the stem, or the I part (I am trying to explain this with letters!!!), would become too thin and would not hold. In fact, just eyeballing it, it looks like it would definitely destroy the wheel's stud holes. I know I am not using the correct terminology for all this, so forgive me for that.
I took some closeup photos and I will post them the first chance I get.
Just had a machinist in my office John, and we discussed deepening the stud holes in the wheels, and he strongly suggested against it. He said the wheels will fail in a catastrophic way, because too much "meat" will have to be taken out to deepen those holes. He has a $200,000 CNC machine that could do it easily and he would do it for free, except he won't because he feels it is truly unsafe.
Also, last night I had a former race car driver and now race team head mechanic at my place looking at the wheels. He has over a decade of racing success, and is a damn good mechanic. Anyway, he says he raced his race car for years with only 3 full turns of the lug nut, and he claims he would bet his life on it that 4.5 turns is plenty to keep the wheels securely on.
I trust him because he has no reason to lie to me; however, that is insane in my book. I am still going to go with longer studs to get the full minimum 6.5 turns davidnunn's chart shows as a requirement. I know it is more money and time, but I rather go with safe than sorry. And if I ever sell this beast, the next owner will appreciate that I did it the right way and took no shortcuts.
In the meantime, I will mount and balance the tires on these new wheels, then put them on the car temporarily to be able to take some photos to post.
Fuzz,
You’re on the right track. Just remove your uprights, pull them apart and install longer wheel studs. This has the added benefit of allowing you to make sure your wheel bearings and axles are in good shape. If you haven’t had the GTS rear bearing mod done, now’s the time. If you aren’t comfortable doing it yourself, ship the uprights off to a vendor and let them do it. Good luck!
No offence to anyone but saying 3 turns is enough and encouraging sub-minimal thread engagement is, well........ Maybe a complete analysis of the system and testing might support that statement but that has not been done. Fasteners is a discipline into its self.
Install the correct longer wheel stubs. Like other have said, it will give (force) you the opportunity to refresh some of the suspension.
Doing it right so the next person in line gets a safe car is admirable and shows your good character. As Larry said, "I wish every owner would adopt that philosophy".
Spoke with Dennis Quella from Pantera Performance out of Denver, CO. What an impressive gentleman and a human encyclopedia when it comes to a Pantera. Found out he has been restoring Panteras full-time since 1979, owns two street Panteras, and owns a beast of race car Pantera. And a pleasant man to talk to. Loved this guy.
Anyway, after speaking to him at length, I am pretty sure I am just going to upgrade the brakes to Wilwood ones, which sounds to be a world of improvement over the stock brakes. While I have the whole thing out to replace the studs, might as well upgrade.
A couple of years ago I installed new shocks aluminum shock absorbers I purchased from Hall Pantera. Some folks on this site have suggested modifying the rear wheel bearings. What other suspension upgrades are folks suggesting I complete?
By the way, I purchased a new brake booster/master cylinder from Hall Pantera, new brake proportioning valve from Jerry at PI Motorsports (another great guy always willing to help over the phone), and new brake lines, all of which will be installed this weekend...hopefully.
Two weekends ago I had the front trunk carpets replaced. Looks awesome.
If you are installing new brakes, you might want to consider having the rotor hats installed on the outside of the axle flange. It makes much easier to machine the rotors when needed.
Mark
Hopefully this will show why the steel inserts in the stud holes cannot be machined to increase thread engagement.
Will do Mark. Thank you.
As I surmised earlier, those studs do appear to have fairly large nipples. 😉
since this task has now snowballed completely out of your control and prior expectations, like most Pantera projects, adding the longer wheel studs seems well called for
Larry
Yes Larry, you are correct. I just wanted new wheels. That's all. New wheels and slowly ending up with a new car. Out of control indeed. LOL
You mentioned suspension upgrades while everything is apart, but another upgrade in the back end that Dennis sells is a CV conversion kit that I know a few have been quite happy with.
Good luck with your project. The wheels are beautiful and the car will be exceptional when it's all buttoned up. Mods are often a roller coaster of emotions.
Beautiful wheels! Good luck with the project.
@ehpantera posted:If you are installing new brakes, you might want to consider having the rotor hats installed on the outside of the axle flange. It makes much easier to machine the rotors when needed.
Mark
I have my rotors mounted on the outside of my hubs (like 99% of all other cars) but the really big advantage of doing this is on the rear. I believe Dennis Quella sells the appropriate Wilwood hats. Keep in mind, this mod will space your wheels outward by 1/4". You can avoid this on the front by using IPSCO hubs but it can't be avoided on the rear.
Like others have said, mounting the rotor/hat assemblies on the outside of the hubs is worth considering. This mod can save you lots of grief during later maintenance. If you decide to do these mods and upgraded your brakes, pay close attention to the adapter bracket offsets and fasteners. Buying all the parts from one vendor is the best bet for getting it right the first time.
I have the IPSCO hubs on my car. They are aluminum and very nicely made.
FWIW, many competition sanctioning bodies require full thread engagement plus two threads visible above each lug nut, and pretty domed nuts are not used. Regardless of anecdotal stories to the contrary, this keeps everyone safe during hard use. And aluminum lug nuts are not advised except for show.
bosswrench, good to know.
racecarmike, do you have a good photo of what it should look like with the rotor/hat assembled outside the hub? What are the benefits? According to Dennis Quella, one of his customers has over 100k miles on his Wilwood brakes and he has never had the need to shave the rotors.
All help is appreciated, as I consider myself a novice in this area. I plan to order the brakes from Dennis Quella today.
Thank you in advance.
Fuzz, As David said above. Also with aluminum hats, it make more sense (to me) that they are placed between the hub and wheel.
I agree that the likelihood of rear rotor maintenance or replacement is low, it's nice to know it can be done much easier. Stuff happens.
Our rear weight biased, fat rear tire cars use more rear braking then their counterparts, but it's still relatively light with normal street driving. Track use is a different animal.
Either method can work. What's more important is that your upgraded kit is designed and sized correctly. Changing any aspect (or parts) of your brake system can (will) affect the brake balance. The change in balance can be positive or negative or diabolical.
To add to what Boss said above, the threads being exposed beyond the lug nuts rule is in place primarily for the techs to be able to do a quick visual. You would be surprised to see some of the weird stuff people do at the track.
Dennis' outboard mounted rear rotors will not fix his too-short wheel stud problem. I think those rotors ALSO require longer wheel studs due to how they're mounted. Also know that there are a few 'gotchas' in R & R-ing the whole rear suspension, not the least of which is, each upright assembly weighs around 50 lbs and has pinch-y protrusions everywhere. NOT a job for rookies!
@Fuzz posted:Here are the closeup photos of the new wheels' stud holes I promised earlier...
I have the same rims (10" front and 14" in the back), from Roin. In the front I installed 15mm bolt on spacers from H&R to get the wheel out in the fender, and to avoid replacing the oem studs to longer. In the rear the studs was long enough to use the nuts as always used.
In looking at the pressed in steel seat, are you sure Roin didn’t design this for a shank type lug nut? The pressed in insert doesn’t appear to have a taper on it. Clearly the nut isn’t supposed to contact or ride on the wider aluminum part of the hole?
Many non-domestic wheel manufacturers use those steel inserts in their cast wheels. It may be hard to see in photos but they are very definitely tapered. They are to be used with 60° cone seat lug nuts only.
Lug nuts like these are a good idea because the use a smaller socket for re & re.
Tiptop, that is very interesting. So I did just try on the rear wheel. So far I only had looked at the front, and figured the rear would be the same. But I was wrong, as I often am. With the stock studs I got 7 1/4 turns with finger tightening alone. So it appears that the rear studs don't need to be replaced. So I compared the back of the front wheels to the rear wheels, and the fronts definitely have a deeper stud hole from the rear, which gives it less exposed threads. Looks like I only need to change the front studs after all, which is a much easier task.
Panterapatt, the pressed in steel seats are definitely 60 degree angled both for the front and the rear.
This project just became a whole lot easier. I am still going to invest in the Wilwood brakes.
Last night I finished installing all new brake lines and a new brake proportioning valve I bought from Jerry at PIM. Everything looks so clean and tidy now.
Time to order some front studs, replace them, and put these bad boy wheels on and take a few photos.
While you’re installing your Wilwood brakes, I’d still put longer studs in the rear, since you’ll have it all apart. 7-1/2 turns of thread engagement may be adequate but it isn’t a lot. That is, if you’re installing bigger rotors on the rear.
That is good news.
I believe that’s the Girling logo.
Yes a G turned sideways.
The longer wheel studs arrived. Hopefully they will be installed this week. Getting to the goal, which is installing those new wheels.
Congrats on getting these done. Looking great. Now you need to get your wheel centers.
Ordered the wheel centers from Hall Pantera. They mailed it the same day, so I should be getting them this week.
now to save money for the Wilwood brakes I want so badly. About $4,000.
on another note, what is the best looking steering wheel for a GT5 out there? Any suggestions?
Looks great! Well worth the effort.
Congratulation on surviving the challenges of getting anything done these days.
I like my Momo GT wheel but they are hard to find. Long out of production. The Momo Prototipo is very similar and available.
Here's another way to spend your money - dump those Hall Big Bore mufflers and get a set of Dennis Quella stainless mufflers.
The Momo Prototipo is the OEM GT5/GT5-S steering wheel. If you'd like the steering wheel to be a bit closer to you, they have a dished version of the Prototipo called the Mod.07. Otherwise, just go to momo.com and pick one you like the looks of. You'll want a 350mm diameter wheel. I have a Momo Competition and love it.
Thank you for your responses. Yes, I love that Momo steering wheel, so definitely will go with that one.
also, was looking at my exhausts today and was thinking stainless ones would look so good, so that is all the encouragement I needed. It will be done in short order.
steering wheel first, then exhaust, then brakes. In that order I think. Easiest to hardest,
350 mm Prototipo steering wheel just got ordered from Momo. Thank you David for confirming my choice and encouraging me on it.
Is that a stick-on Pantera emblem you guys put on the Momo steering wheel? Or is it metal? Where do you source it? Hall Pantera?
Panterapatt...would you post a side photo of your car? I am digging that two tone a lot. Thank you.
Here you go
Panterapatt...it is a beauty indeed.
@panterapatt posted:Here you go
Panterapatt,
Your Pantera is VERY nice. Who did you buy your Group 4 flares from and who installed them?
Thanks!
Fuzz, do your homework on the brakes as not all the kits will fit behind those new 15" wheels! The up swept exhaust might interfere with your L bumper, there's another project for you.....
David: I purchased the GP IV flares directly from Gary Hall way back in 2001. I did the install myself prior to sending the car to the painter. thanks.
Panterapatt,
Your car looks awesome.
Fuzz: Can you post details on what studs you bought and from where? And what lug nuts you purchased. I want to know should I go down this path. thanks
Just found out today that my front left brake caliper is leaking brake fluid. Ordered a repair kit from Panteras by Wilkinson. What a great guy Steve, the owner, turns out to be. Meeting all kinds of helpful fun guys lately.
thanks very much!
When you rebuild frt or rear calipers, know there are two places for leaks, one of which the seal kits will not fix. All Girling calipers built '60s-'70s used mild steel pistons with chrome or nickel plating, and they rust under the plating from old wet brake fluid. This produces a row of pits that, if they're in certain places, produce a leak with brand new seals. Some pits will tear up new seals as well.
Supposedly, someone sells stainless pistons. I made my own out of 312-stainless bar stock. Porsche guys strip the plating off old pistons, braze/weld the pits, remachine and re-plate. NOT cheap! PanteraParts.com in Carson City sells reconditioned front & rear calipers on an exchange basis, and he has a pickup truck full of pitted pistons. Good luck.
Absolutely incredible. Those wheels are the “ shit squared”.
Looks great!
Thank you guys. Panterapatt, I had never heard that term before, but I love it and I am going to have to find reason to use it.
