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Update:  Wheels are scheduled to arrive today.  UPS will only tell me it will be sometime between 8 AM and 9 PM; and they will not notify me when the driver is on his way, nor will they notify me when the item is dropped off.  She said they cannot text me with updates.  Are we in the 21st century or not?  Or is she just lazy and stubborn?

The UPS lady on the phone further proceeded to say they will just drop them off at the doorstep and I can get them when I get home.  Hmmmm....  And I was nice as pie the whole time with her, so one can't even argue that I (somehow) pissed her off and she was getting even with me.

I have a family member that was willing to go sit in my house until they arrive or I have finished my work-day and get to go home, whichever comes first.

In this case the shipper used UPS; it was not my choice.  However, if I ever need to ship something, I do believe I will be leaning toward using some other career.

Come on Group IV wheels, make this wait and money worth it by looking amazing on the car.

Just curious, would anyone want the Hall Ultra wheels and Pirelli tires on my car now?  My tires have very few miles on them.  You can see the style of the wheels on the photo I posted earlier in this post.

Thank you for everyone's input; however, read on if you want to know what happened with UPS, or if you even consider using them to mail your next package.  This post will be long, and will be all about UPS, so if you are not interested in reading about human incompetence and stupidity on an epic scale, just move on to another post:

On January 10th (two days ago), I paid $41.66 to UPS using my VISA card, for what they said I owed to them for customs. OK, I get that.  Not a big deal, right?  So I called the UPS customs broker, per the email instructions that I had received, and paid them, after which they emailed me back a receipt that I had paid the amount, complete with a UPS logo, their email address, authorization number, get the picture.  Legit, that I paid, with proof in hand.

Yesterday, the 11th, the website was updated that the packages were released to be delivered, but I owed $41.66, that I can pay online or COD to the driver.  I called the number which I paid through, and the UPS agent confirmed yes, I have paid it, and package have been released to be delivered.  Oh good.  I figured I will wait for the delivery, and show the driver my receipt and the paid-in-full email I received from UPS.  That should settle that with no issues.  Or so I thought.

This morning, the 12th, I received an email from UPS saying the package will be delivered by 9 PM.  What a wide window, right?  But that is ok, because fortunately my 77-year old mother lives close by, and I asked her to come sit at my house and watch for the delivery until it arrives, or if it is after I finish my work, I will be home and can take delivery myself.  I also advised her that if the driver says I owe any monies, for her to tell him/her that it is paid for, that I have a receipt, and for him to check with his center/hub for confirmation.  I also told my nice mother to call me if he does not believe it, and I would rush home to show him/her the receipt in person.

So shortly after 1 PM, two hours before my workday was to end, my mother texts me and says he is here with the packages.  I text back I will leave work immediately and will be home to move the wheels inside.  (She is old and due to health issues, cannot lift heavy objects.)  I rush home.

On the way home, dear old mom calls me and tells me the driver said I owed $46.11, and that he cannot wait for me, so he left with my wheels.  What????  Yes son, she says, after he unloaded them, and I told him they are paid for, he loaded them back up and left, saying they are not paid for.  She did tell him I am on my way home to show him the receipt, but he said he does not have time to wait for me, but he will be in the area for 20 minutes, if he gets home, come find me on the road.

I asked her to follow him while he makes his deliveries and tell me where they are, and I will catch up, show him the receipt, and all will be well.  Right?  Wrong.

Within a minutes I catch up with them (she told me where he had stopped to make a deliver).  Got out of my car, driver approached me after he finished delivery to a neighbor, and I showed him the electronic receipt for full amount paid from UPS.  He says he is sorry, but he cannot release the packages because the pad in his hand says I owe $46.11, and unless I pay, he will not give me my packages.  Literally no amount of reason would change his mind.  I said how could you possibly say I have to pay that exact amount when I have a receipt from UPS, your own company, saying I paid in full with a credit card, complete with receipt number and all?  He would not budge.

I asked him to call his supervisor, which he reluctantly did.  Same result.  This idiot, (we will call him Daniel, because that was his name), tells me sorry, I won't have my driver release the packages until you give him the money.  I repeated, and repeated, and repeated again and again that it is paid for, that I am literally showing the driver the receipt, which the driver acknowledged to Daniel that it is real, and it is from UPS.  Daniel said no, pay the driver or I will have him leave.  I said the packages are paid for, and I have the receipt, so at this point they are my property, so if his driver leaves, that is theft of my property.  At this point UPS has zero claim to my property.  I asked him, "Do you understand that?"  I told him I will forward the email to him that I received from UPS which shows I paid, and he said no, he doesn't need it, because his system shows I did not pay.  I told him I will not let the truck leave with my packages, that I will block the road (we were in a cul-de-sac and the only way out could have been blocked by me if I really wanted to be a real you know what).  He said, "Please don't block the driver and the truck and let the truck go."  I said the driver is free to leave, but my packages stay.  He didn't budge, told his driver to shut the door and leave, which he did.  Leaving me standing in the middle of the road looking dumbfounded as to what had just transpired.

I ran inside the house and got on the phone with the UPS customs broker center, and quickly got a female agent to speak with me.  She confirmed it is all paid for, that I owe NOTHING, and the driver should have left me the packages, and that his supervisor HAD NO RIGHT TO OVERRULE THE EMAIL RECEIPT FROM THE UPS CUSTOMS BROKER.  She put me on hold, came back 10 minutes later, and said that she saw they had sent a COD RELEASE email to that UPS hub/center, but no one had opened the damn email.  She said she will send a second one, but at this point there is nothing else she can do.  I asked for her to find me this hub's address, which she did.  I drove there.

Got to the main entrance, and spoke with nice young man, who was the on-duty security guard.  Explained everything to him.  He said that was insane, but he did not know who he could contact.  I said how can that be possible?  (This hub/center IS HUGE.)  You can't find a supervisor in this facility, which looks to be over 200 acres?  Maybe larger?  He said he works for the security company, and he doesn't know who is inside the building.  I asked him to call his security manager, which he reluctantly did.  The manager told him there is no one in the entire facility that could check emails to see if a COD RELEASE was sent by the UPS CUSTOMS BROKER.  Nothing he can do for me.  EXCUSE ME?  In the year 2023, no one can check emails in a UPS facility?  Nope, he said.  (You can only imagine how dizzy I got with this reply.)

I called the UPS CUSTOMS BROKER on the phone again, and this time got a supervisor.  She was dumbfounded by what I was saying.  She said she just checked, and while I was driving there, two more emails were sent to that center to release my packages, for a total of four emails, but still no one was willing to open the emails.  I told the young security guard that at this point, this UPS facility is in violation of the crimes code by keeping my property from me.  It is my property, I have proven it, and by them refusing to give it to me, they are committing theft.  He got the point, or maybe felt sorry for me, and said he would walk me back and I can speak to his manager.

So he walked me in this huge facility, past the metal detectors and all, while I still had the UPS CUSTOMS BROKER supervisor on the speakerphone.  We entered the main building (MASSIVE BUILDING), and were half-way to the end when he got a text form his manager telling him to escort me outside, that I am not allowed inside.  So I walked back out.  Still on the phone with the UPS CUSTOMS supervisor, who kept telling me about all the problems the are having with that center.  I get it.  Yes, they are incompetent, but even incompetency has to have a limit. Right?  Wrong again.  I found out people can really lower the bar when one believes there is no room to lower it any further.

After five minutes, Daniel comes outside and tells me to leave.  Just like that.  I said hold on sir, you have my packages, which I have paid for, and I have the printed receipt in hand, and the original email on my phone which I am willing to show you, but you won't give my packages.  He told me that is because his system tells him I have not paid.  The UPS CUSTOMS BROKER jumps in and yells through the speakerphone, WAIT A SECOND, THIS MAN HAS PAID ALL HIS DUES, I HAVE PROOF OF IT, I SENT IT TO YOU, HE HAS A COPY IN HIS HAND, YOU REFUSE TO OPEN THE EMAILS WE HAVE SENT TO YOU, AND YOU ARE TELLING HIM YOUR SYSTEM, WHICH I AM LOOKING AT, SAYS HE HAS NOT PAID?  Daniel says:  Who is this?  Are you from UPS?  She says YES, and he better go check his emails, because this is ridiculous.  Daniel refused to go check his emails or whatever email account the COD RELEASE was sent to.  Yes, for real he refused to do that.  This went on for a while, she telling him what to do, and he standing there in whatever fantasy world he lives in.  Finally she had enough, and with all the authority she could gather in her voice said, "I am a manager at the UPS CUSTOMS BROKER and I am telling you this man has paid in full, and you are to release his packages to him immediately."  He said, ok, since you are a manager, I will take your word and release it.  But they are not here.  They are still in the truck, somewhere.  He hangs up on her.  Just like that.

Turns to me and says, "You can't come in here.  And you can't tell my driver he cannot leave or you will block the road."  I replied, "Do you now understand these packages were paid for?  Do you understand at that point they are my property?  And do you understand that at that point, you have no legal right to keep them from me?"  He said, "They were still in our possession, so they were our responsibility."  (Yeah, epic stupidity .  This moron just didn't get it.)  I said, "They are only in your possession because you refuse to release them, when they are rightfully mine, and you, with proof in hand, had and still have no right to keep them at all."  He said, "Well, that's our policy."  And I replied, "Your policy is not the law.  The law is the law.  Release my property."

He claims he will let the driver deliver them to me tonight, by 9 PM.  So here I sit, waiting for my wheels.  5:05 PM and still not here.  Four more hours to go.  We shall see what happens next, but I doubt they will be delivered.

Maybe I should have paid $2,000 more and just bought them from Mr. Fiat and avoided dealing with UPS.

Give a man an ounce of authority, and he will act as if he is The King.

It’s hard to think clearly in a situation like that, I totally get it. I too have a couple of lovely incompetent, UPS stories.

But I think the easiest solution would’ve been to pay the driver another $41.66, take delivery of your wheels, and then call up your credit company and put a cancellation complaint on the charge given to the driver. In your case, a simple forwarding of your paid in full email would easily prove your case.

fingers crossed the wheels are safely in your possession by 9 PM. 🤞🤞


Here is the follow-up: and yes, it is hard to imagine a human being can be this big an a$$hole.  About an hour ago the same driver delivered the wheels.  Turned out to be a really nice guy, and from the moment he arrived he started apologizing.  He said his supervisor, Daniel, is a really big D!CK and he is an a$$hole to everyone.  This driver said, are you ready?... "I found out we had the release email all along, that he had gotten it in the morning, and knew about it. He was just being an a$$hole for no reason.  I believed you the entire time.  I knew the receipt was real, but I had to follow his orders or he would have me fired.  He did this entire thing intentionally."  My poor mother was standing right next to me.  She almost lost her 77-year old mind.  I offered to buy the kid dinner, but he saw my Ferrari F430 and asked if he could instead get a ride in that.  I told him sure, next nice sunny day when he is off, just come over and I will even let him drive it.

Wheels arrived.  I need to open the packages.  I just have taken the last hour to calm down after being told Daniel (yeah, that guy we all have met at one point or another in our life) had done this knowing the money had been paid.  There is a special place in hell for people like that.

I don't know what else to say.  I am just sitting here sad that we have people like this amongst us.

Both UPS & FedEx have no knowledge what the import duties are beforehand and these are always added costs along with a customs brokerage fee, even to Canada (as many owners have found out when vendors ship UPS or FedEx to our northern friends).

I filled out an US Customs form HS7 for Marvic, who put the HTS code on my invoices, along with the magnesium alloy and they do state 'for competition use only'. I paid 2.5% duty + fees of ~$260, they pay US Customs on my behalf and release and deliver to my door.

Looks like the studs will have to be changed out for longer ones.  Currently there is approximately 1/2 in. of threads for lug nuts to grab onto.  Anyone have any experience in this arena?  What do I need?  I think the stock ones are 12mm x 1.5.  There is exactly 1 in. of thread on these studs when the wheel is off and I measure it from end to end of the thread.

Thanks for the weights, very useful, which compares to16.5 lbs and 14 lbs for magnesium, so not giving up too much unsprung weight.

The rule of thumb is thread engagement should be at minimum the dia. of the stud, so sounds as though you are right at that. The Group 4 and 5 cars had longer wheel studs as the wheel hubs are thicker. Most vendors sell a GT5 stud, but changing the rear will require dismantling the hub assembly and stub axle removal.

Last edited by joules

Ok, here is the question: How much thread has to be exposed and out of the wheel for the lug nut to grab onto for it to be considered safe?  With the current studs, there is only 1/2 inch of thread that extends past the wheel's stud holes.  The stud holes are very small in diameter, only 13 mm, which is 0.512 in.  The black lug nuts pictured above by tsolo look really good; however, the shank diameter is 0.61 in. and thus would not fit inside these wheels' stud holes.  I need lug nuts with a shank diameter maximum of 13 mm, or 0.512 in.  I can't seem to find them.  Does anyone know where I can get some?  I am trying to avoid changing out the studs, and as joules explained, it sounds like a pain in the butt.

I looked at a picture I had of the Roin wheel.  your stud is sticking out 1/2" from WHERE on the wheel.  The outer surface, the inner cone area?  I assume you mean the outer surface.  If yes, then you have more stud down inside the cone taper.  I would not use studs with a shank as shown.  Get a stud that has the correct taper angle and if I believe it will be fine.  You will have way more than 1/2" of thread engagement. Send a picture of the wheel on the car.

1/2" from the inner cone area, so there will be 1/2" thread engagement with a conical lug nut.  But, at 12 mm diameter, according to various posts, 12 mm is apparently all the engagement it needs, right?  (Rule of thumb being thread engagement should equal diameter of lug nut.)  1/2" is 12.7 mm.  Or am I missing something?

Sorry panterapatt, I misunderstood you.  I did email Roin and asked Andrea to provide me with prices on the matching lug nuts, which he has.  Given the hell I went through with UPS in getting the wheels, I really wish I had ordered lug nuts from Roin when I ordered the wheels.  Waiting to hear back from him.

Also, when I get home, I will put one wheel on the car and take a picture and post it.  That should give a better idea as to how far the studs come through the wheel's holes.

Just want to thank everyone for their input thus far.

Assuming the wheels are machined specifically for a Pantera and are hub-centric you don't need or want lug nuts with a shank. As stated by others, the seat angle and thread engagement are the main concerns. Confirming the seat angle is a good idea. Minimum thread engagement being equal to the thread diameter is valid. Do the wheels have seat inserts? Once the wheel/tire package is mounted on the car and torqued to spec and you drive around a bit, I suggest rechecking the torque after it cools down.

Correct, lug nuts with shanks do not fit the new wheels at all.

Roin got back to me that they no longer carry the lug nuts.

So here is what I learned.  I put the Hall Ultra wheel back on and the lug nut with the shank turned exactly 8 turns before it got tight enough that I could not turn it by hand.  I went to the local auto store and bought a M12x1.5 conical lug nut (60 degree angle) and tried it on the new Roin wheels.  It turned exactly 4 1/2 times before I could not turn it any more.  It sat perfectly, so the seat angle is correct at 60 degrees; however, the studs are definitely not long enough for these wheels and need to be changed out.

And to answer otis' earlier question, I covered the history of my car in another post, but the short of it is that it was imported to the U.S. from Europe (not sold through Lincoln/Ford dealerships here) and was later converted into the GT5 some time in the 1980s, so it does not have the longer studs.  It is now obvious to me that the wider Hall Ultra wheels were designed to work with the standard studs.

Is removing the studs a DIY project?  I am pretty handy around cars, but I haven't done one outside of a dune buggy about 30 years ago, which I recall was rather simple.

Not following.  If the exposed thread is 1/2" and you are turning the nut down into the wheel, clearly MORE than 1/2" of thread is being consumed by the nut.  If you need a minimum of the diameter of the stud (1/2") of engagement, you have MORE than 1/2" happening.  FORGET what the Hall wheel turns are.  Gary's wheel has a thinner center, that's all - irrelevant data.  

Changing all the studs is a BIG job.  take the entire real suspension off.  

If you have more than 1/2 an inch of stud being consumed when you thread the nut on which you have to have, I would run them.  Remember, there is zero value in having a stud longer than what the nut needs.  

I also do not believe Roin purposely made these such that the studs needs to be replaced.  He has sold plenty of the wheels.  

That is what I would do.

A suggestion to determine how deep the studs are actually engaging with the new lug nuts…..

Roll up some small balls from aluminum foil or modeling clay and stick them inside a lug nut, then install it to its full depth. Might take a few trials to get it right, start small, but that should tell you how far the threads are engaging into the lug nut.


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