Master Cylinder

is the bleeder nipple at the top? if it's not, there will be a pocket of air in the slave, that bleeding won't remove...

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Originally posted by ORNG UFO:
I just had my Clutch Master Cylender serviced, and put it back in the car, then tryed to bleed the system, and there is absolutely no pressure. I blead at the slave by using a pump to start bringing fluid through the system. Once a good amount of fluid went through the systme, then I tried to bleed at the slave cylinder with the wife at the pedal, but after about 20 minutes of pumping there is still no pressure build up at the pedal...only a trickle of fluid at the slave. I can't understand what is wrong, should I have done something to the master before putting it in the car or something???? Both my legs are tired!!

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Yes, the bleeder nipple is at the top of the slave. I just discovered that when pumping the pedal, bubbles keep coming out into the master plastic container each time I pump the pedal...should it be doing that? Someone informed me that I may need to bleed at the master where the hose comes out of the master, but that looks like it would be messy. I thought all bleeding should be at the slave, but maybe not the case if the master has been serviced?

Actually, "fluid" keeps comming from the master into the plastic container on the master when you press the pedal down. This doesn't seem ritht to me. I tried to bleed at the hose coming out of the master, but that didn't seem to help either. Help!!

Sounds like it's working "bass ackwards". Is it possible that something in the linkage got turned around/over? Something overcenter the wrong way? Come on Pantera gurus, let's help get him back on the road where he belongs!

First, what was "serviced"? If someone attempted to hone pits out of a leaky master cylinder and went too far, the o-ring seals (which are really not for a Pantera) will be too small for the now-oversized bore, fluid will bypass the seals and zero pressure will result. There are two sizes of master cylinders, too. Using a 'kit' for one size on the other will not seal. If one of the two the tiny fill holes in the cylinder is blocked with 'stuff' (visible from the reservoir cap hole), the piston won't draw new fluid in on the upstroke and no pressure results. If the piston return spring is broken, the piston will stick at the bottom of the cylinder. There are really only a few other options: either one of the fittings or lines is now leaking, maybe under the car, so no pressure is developed, or you have somehow installed things such that there is an air pocket thats not bleeding out. The air pocket need not be very large, either. Finally, the slave cylinder may have coincidently failed, just to confuse things. Its Italian!

Thanks all. I don't have any leaks, and when I reinstalled the master, I drew fluid through the slave with a vacume pump, so I am sure I don't have air in the system. As far as being "serviced" all I did was have the broken spring replaced, and that was it. I now have the feeling something may have been installed backwards. I will call the vendor back and may have to crawl under to take the master out again to look into it (now won't that be fun...for a midget).

What is the order of internals that should be installed within the master so that I may see if something is backwards?

Well I took out the clutch master, disassembled and found that the order of internals was correct: plastic piece, spring, then rod with the 2 O rings. I still can't understand why I have no pressure at all. At least before I took it apart I had some pretty good pressure. All I did was replace the internal spring, which was broke, put it all back in the car, tightened everything up, vacuum bleed at the slave until I got about one cup of fluid, then pumped at the pedal...and no pressure. I even tried to bleed at the master, and fluid shot everywhere when the wife pressed the pedal (thank god no paint was hit!). Back to being a trailer queen I guess.

I am getting ready to put the master back into the car and try again (can you believe it, what punishment!). I even manually tried pumping the master on the bench to see if fluid even comes out where it should, and it did.

Any tips that I should do before I try all this again, besides maybe some Jack Daniels for encouragement? I drew all the fluid out of the entire system with a vacume pump at the slave when I took the master out. Then all I did last time was reinstall the master, bleed about a cup through the slave with a vacume pump, tighten the slave up and then pump the pedal.

Stupid question - is the linkage doing what it's supposed to do? I'm an admittedly inexperienced Pantera mechanic, but I've seen in the IPC a "clutch effort reduction linkage kit". Is it possible that when you took out the master, something shifted & now you don't have sufficient throw? Just an idea, something to look at prior to installation. Good luck!

Thanks for the reply Stosh...I was getting tired of responding to myself. No linkage was changed under the car or on the master (only thing was the spring that was installed because the other internal one was broke).

If there are no precautions to take, it looks like I just bolt the master in, hook it up to the line, put fluid in, then have the wife pump while I bleed at the slave. So, I will try again and see what happens. But if all goes like last time (15 minutes of pumping and no stiffie pedal), I am sure I will hear grumblings from the wife again.

TRY BENCH BLEEDING THE MASTER CYL. YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THIS ON THE CAR. YOU CAN BUY KITS THAT GIVE YOU THE PARTS TO DO IT. BLEED BACK INTO THE CUP UNTIL YOU SEE NO BUBBLES.THIS SHOULD BE DONE BEFORE YOU BLEED AT THE LINE. ALSO MAKE SURE THAT THE CONNECTION ON THE SLAVE CYLINDER IS REALLY TIGHT. THE PROBLEM THAT I HAD WAS BECAUSE THE INLET PIPE INTO THE SLAVE WAS LOOSE. ALSO PUT SOME TEFLON TAPE ON THE BLEEDER. I CAN DEFENITLY FEEL YOUR IRRITATION. I FOUGHT MINE FOR TWO DAYS. ALSO MAKE SURE THAT THE THROW IS FAR ENOUGH ON YOU MASTER.

Thanks for the bench bleeding advise. I have the master in the car, so I may try this before I hook up the line to the master. I have a hand vacume pump where I may be able to do this. As far as procedure, would I put a vacume line on the exit part of the master, and then draw the fluid through here and into the top plastic cup? Should I have the clutch pressed to the floor when doing this?

YOU DONT WANT TO USE THE VACUUM PUMP TO BENCH BLEED. YOU TAKE THE HOSE AND PUT IT BACK INTO THE CUP AND WAIT FOR THE BUBLES TO QUIT. I USED THE VACUUM PUMP ONLY ON THE SLAVE CYL END. I DID THIS BECAUSE I WAS TRYING TO BLEED IT SOLO. AN AUTO PARTS STORE SHOULD BE ABLE TO HELP YOU WITH THE PARTS TO BENCH BLEED. GOOD LUCK

I don't see the logic of bench bleeding, as I don't see the difference than drawing fluid out the slave. When drawing at the slave with the vacuum, fluid & bubbles would be comming out the same hole as when it exits the master, and then would just travel down the line to the slave into the vacuum pump. So any bubbles should get drawn right through to slave and into the vacuum. I must be missing something here.

Anyway, I have already hooked everything up and vacuum blead at the slave about 1 quart of Castrol through the system just to make sure bubbles are out (I would assume that with that much bleeding that all bubbles would come though). And that didn't work. So I had the wife pump at the pedal and I tried to bleed for about an hour, and that didn't work. I noticed that when the wife presses the pedal to the floor "fluid" comes up into the plastic cup on the master on the down stroke. Isn't this odd that fluid comes into the container when the pedal is pressed? It is not bubbles, but fluid.

I could try a parts store and bench bleed, but just don't see how that would be different than bleeding large volumes at the slave.

This is getting frustrating. I could try and buy another master, but everything looked ok to me when I had it apart.

Yes! A new master fixed it! After 2 months of fussing to find the problem I can actually drive it again, waking neighbors and setting off their car alarms.