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NEW Mangusta Wheel by Group 4 Wheels

G group4wheelsMember
quote:
Originally posted by Wellis:
I would be interested in a set of the 15", what do you need from me.
William


Hi William,

At present, absolutely nothing! Smiler

What I'll be doing is taking you all on a journey from concept/design through all the different stages of production to final product.

Perhaps if I start (another) list of "Interested parties". I'll start the ball rolling 'cause I sure want a set of these! Big Grin

1. Jonathan Sage 2 x 8's & 2 x 9's
2. William 2 x 8's & 2 x 9's
3. Mark Charlton 2 x 8's & 2 x 9's
4. Pal-A Grova (was this for this or Gr4 wheels)?
5.
garth66garth66"When speed is the only thing that counts"
quote:
Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
I was always going to produce a 15" Campagnolo type wheel and my initial thought as previously stated was to make a wheel that would cover many bases and therefor make it affordable. I know that the Mangusta community is a rather small one and getting the required numbers together to produce a "Mangusta" wheel may prove fairly difficult.


I'd be interested in a pair of 15" pre-L style Campys for my Pantera. Any timeline available?
markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
quote:
Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
205's on the 8's and 225's on the 9's
Jonathan


Jonathan,

That's pretty narrow rubber on the rears, although historically correct. I think the factory sizes were: front 185/70/15 and rear 225/70/15. I do not think a 225/70/15 tire will fit a 9" rim, as the recommended width would be 7.5" for that tire width.

I feel something much beefier would be much better. I was hoping to run 295/50/15 tires which was why I wanted the 10" rims. Might be good to get input from other before committing to the narrower 9" wheel. I think on the 9" wheel a 275/50/15 would be the widest tire one would want to go, but a 225 would be too narrow.

Tire Size comparisons:
225/70/15 = 27.4" dia. (factory tire size) on a 6" to 7.5" wide rim
275/60/15 = 28" dia. on a 7.5" to 9.5" wide rim
295/50/15 = 26.7" dia. on a 8" to 10" wide rim

So, I renew my plea for the 10" wide rim. Wink and in silver for mine.

Mark
G group4wheelsMember
quote:
Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
Hi All,

I'll have another update on wheel design on Monday, these will be for 8's & 9's.

OK you guys, I'll make you a 10" rear if you get 40 pieces between you, I'll have a 10" proposal done early next week.

With my honesty cap on and not my salesmans cap....I'll always have 8's but if you want 10's, buy 3 as I can't guarentee that I'll ever make more than one set (60 wheels). I think I can sell a few to those with tarmac spec Fiat 131 Abarth Group 4 cars, it's a small market!

So come on, get on the forums and tell your friends....let's make it happen!


Regards

Jonathan
G group4wheelsMember
Hi All,

This is "The Wheel", which will end up on your car.....I hope!

We've made a few subtle modifications like tapering the back spokes and softening a couple of areas.

In the 8 & 9" picture the wheel is shown with a "block rim form" (no lip), the wheel is cast with the lip, giving that "aged" appearance, this was originally used to attach balance weights to. If wanted, the wheel can be supplied without the lip at no extra cost.

Once machining starts on the dies i will be taking orders....money.

I have an "Ace" up my sleeve which I'll play tomorrow! ....

Regards

Jonathan

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markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
Hi Jonathan,

I am probably just getting dizzy from the options, but I think a re-cap of your plan/pricing/detail and options may be in order.

Here is my understanding:
• you plan to make 8" and 9" wide wheels regardless because you have a wider (non-Mangusta) market for those sizes.
• cost for 8" wheel is £250 for the 8" and £275 for the 9"
• wheels will be available with or without the outer lip as a no-cost choice.
• wheel finish will be silver (I hope) or gold for up-charge of?
• back-spacing will be variable (with a range of ???) as a no-cost choice
• a 10" wide wheel will be available if orders can be secured for 40 pcs

Here are my questions:
• what will ordering/deposit (amount?) process be?
• what will the time/cut-off be for the decision regarding the 10" vs. 9" wheels (those who want the 10's will likely not want the 9's unless the 10's don't get produced)?
• how will wheels be packed/shipped to the Americas, and at what cost (per set of 4)? Do you have a distribution channel here yet?
• what will the wheel finish be (can you post a photo?)
• will you somehow be able to verify clearance and fit PRIOR to production? (there are a number of Mangustas in the UK and I'm sure we could connect you to someone able to assist with making a car/factory wheel available for measurements.
• how are wheels being constructed (cast/machined) and what "certification" will they carry?
• will the wheels be branded (raised or recessed?) as shown in your renderings?
• what is timeline from deposit to shipping?

Thanks again for the initiative and great work this far on this. I truly hope these DO get produced and appreciate what you've done to appease everyone.

Mark
G group4wheelsMember
Hi Mark/All,

I am probably just getting dizzy from the options, but I think a re-cap of your plan/pricing/detail and options may be in order.

Here is my understanding:
• you plan to make 8" and 9" wide wheels regardless because you have a wider (non-Mangusta) market for those sizes. correct
• cost for 8" wheel is £250 for the 8" and £275 for the 9" prices may vary by £5 or £10, depends on aluminium costs at time. 10" £315
• wheels will be available with or without the outer lip as a no-cost choice. correct
• wheel finish will be silver (I hope) or gold for up-charge of? silver is the default colour, gold a no cost option.
• back-spacing will be variable (with a range of ???) as a no-cost choice correct, back space is variable should you want a 9" for the back and space it out to a 10".
• a 10" wide wheel will be available if orders can be secured for 40 pcs correct

Here are my questions:
• what will ordering/deposit (amount?) process be? I'm currently setting up a secure payment page with Visa merchant services. 50% deposit with full payment before shipping.
• what will the time/cut-off be for the decision regarding the 10" vs. 9" wheels (those who want the 10's will likely not want the 9's unless the 10's don't get produced)? For me, it would be beneficial if everyone had 9's as on 1 batch (60) of 10's I would only get my money back....but like everyone here, I'm a petrolhead and would love to see the 10's made because looking at the bigger picture, it could lead to other things. NO CUT OFF TIME, GET 40 PIECES ACCOUNTED FOR AND I'LL MAKE THEM!

If you are thinking of 10's for the rear, buy a spare, I can't see another run being done.
• how will wheels be packed/shipped to the Americas, and at what cost (per set of 4)? Do you have a distribution channel here yet? Wheels will either be packed 1 or 2 to a box, depending on size, partitioned and strapped. I do not have any dealers as this would make the wheels more expensive. Cost to ship 4 wheels to USA is around £85 by Fedex.
• what will the wheel finish be (can you post a photo?) Will post a picture of my other wheels shortly.
• will you somehow be able to verify clearance and fit PRIOR to production? (there are a number of Mangustas in the UK and I'm sure we could connect you to someone able to assist with making a car/factory wheel available for measurements. Wheels will be guarenteed to fit. If someone knows someone here in UK with a Mangusta, GREAT! "Cross the T's and dot the I's".
• how are wheels being constructed (cast/machined) and what "certification" will they carry? Wheels are low pressure die cast and then go through various CNC processes. ISO 9000 certification.
• will the wheels be branded (raised or recessed?) as shown in your renderings? Branding is recessed, this can be deleted but unfortunately will carry a surcharge.
• what is timeline from deposit to shipping? 8's and 9's will be ready end of August, 10's are down to you guys. Deposits will start to be taken begining of July.

Thanks again for the initiative and great work this far on this. I truly hope these DO get produced and appreciate what you've done to appease everyone. .... Big Grin

I hope this helps, any other questions, feel free to ask.

Jonathan
Last edited by group4wheels
J jmm3Member
Translated for the US audience, as of June 17, 2011:

quote:
Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
Hi Mark/All,

I am probably just getting dizzy from the options, but I think a re-cap of your plan/pricing/detail and options may be in order.

Here is my understanding:
• you plan to make 8" and 9" wide wheels regardless because you have a wider (non-Mangusta) market for those sizes. correct
• cost for 8" wheel is $405 for the 8" and $445 for the 9" prices may vary by $8 or $16, depends on aluminium costs at time. 10" $607
• wheels will be available with or without the outer lip as a no-cost choice. correct
• wheel finish will be silver (I hope) or gold for up-charge of? silver is the default colour, gold a no cost option.
• back-spacing will be variable (with a range of ???) as a no-cost choice correct, back space is variable should you want a 9" for the back and space it out to a 10".
• a 10" wide wheel will be available if orders can be secured for 40 pcs correct

Here are my questions:
• what will ordering/deposit (amount?) process be? I'm currently setting up a secure payment page with Visa merchant services. 50% deposit with full payment before shipping.
• what will the time/cut-off be for the decision regarding the 10" vs. 9" wheels (those who want the 10's will likely not want the 9's unless the 10's don't get produced)? For me, it would be beneficial if everyone had 9's as on 1 batch (60) of 10's I would only get my money back....but like everyone here, I'm a petrolhead and would love to see the 10's made because looking at the bigger picture, it could lead to other things. NO CUT OFF TIME, GET 40 PIECES ACCOUNTED FOR AND I'LL MAKE THEM!

If you are thinking of 10's for the rear, buy a spare, I can't see another run being done.
• how will wheels be packed/shipped to the Americas, and at what cost (per set of 4)? Do you have a distribution channel here yet? Wheels will either be packed 1 or 2 to a box, depending on size, partitioned and strapped. I do not have any dealers as this would make the wheels more expensive. Cost to ship 4 wheels to USA is around $138 by Fedex.
• what will the wheel finish be (can you post a photo?) Will post a picture of my other wheels shortly.
• will you somehow be able to verify clearance and fit PRIOR to production? (there are a number of Mangustas in the UK and I'm sure we could connect you to someone able to assist with making a car/factory wheel available for measurements. Wheels will be guarenteed to fit. If someone knows someone here in UK with a Mangusta, GREAT! "Cross the T's and dot the I's".
• how are wheels being constructed (cast/machined) and what "certification" will they carry? Wheels are low pressure die cast and then go through various CNC processes. ISO 9000 certification.
• will the wheels be branded (raised or recessed?) as shown in your renderings? Branding is recessed, this can be deleted but unfortunately will carry a surcharge.
• what is timeline from deposit to shipping? 8's and 9's will be ready end of August, 10's are down to you guys. Deposits will start to be taken begining of July.

Thanks again for the initiative and great work this far on this. I truly hope these DO get produced and appreciate what you've done to appease everyone. .... Big Grin

I hope this helps, any other questions, feel free to ask.

Jonathan
G group4wheelsMember
quote:
Originally posted by garth66:
quote:
will the wheels be branded (raised or recessed?) as shown in your renderings? Branding is recessed, this can be deleted but unfortunately will carry a surcharge.

Just a question... Can the branding be put on the inside/backside of the rim rather than the outside?


It's on the inside as well! Big Grin

I would rather not delete it and I won't be offering the option to anyone else. I originally said it would be a FREE deletion but it's another CNC process, the cost for deletion is £10 per wheel.


Regards

Jonathan
G group4wheelsMember
Hi All,

By early next week I'll have the technical drawing for the 8 x 15" wheel which I'll post up. At this point I'll start a new thread (to keep things clear) for orders, once this hits 40 units for the 10", I'll take deposits and put the "Wheels in motion" Frowner, sorry, couldn't help it.

The 8 & 9" will be ready at the end of August, please bear in mind that the extra time it takes to get to 40 units is roughly the the amount of time you'll have to wait after the 8/9" arrives.


Regards

Jonathan
G group4wheelsMember
Hi All,

Sorry this took loner than expected. FEA (finite element analysis) has now been completed and what we have is a VERY strong and light wheel.

Things will really start to move quickly now with the possibility of the bottom die (face) starting to get CNC'd next week!!!

What I think we should do is star a new "Thread" for orders only and keep discussion/update "Here".


Regards

Jonathan

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D dickruzzinMember
I think you changed the design too much. The lack of a wheel weight rim on the front face, the flat blades with sharp corners, no provision for mounting the emblem and a very different central hub. Also a lack of detail, filets, etc. The bolt area seems to be a curved surface, that I cannot understand. Also the openings between the spokes have a flat surface at the central hub which really changes the design. The design you show looks like a brand new wheel, it should have the character of the hand modeled original, which it could. I think you are rushing this wheel and really do not care about having an authentic look.

These deficiencies were all discussed with you early in the dialogue about your proposal and were clearly displayed in the images that I sent to you.

Disappointing. A nice wheel but not a Mangusta wheel.
G group4wheelsMember
Hi All,

Not sure where the technical drawing has gone, can anyone help?

I was showing the wheel with a "Block form rim" just so one could compare it with what had gone before. Attached is a CAD drawing of how the wheel will be made which is with the "wheel weight rim"...there is a deletion option.

Dick, as previously stated, this is NOT a wheel solely for you guys. It's based on a VERY similar wheel that Campagnolo produced, an evolution of the Mangusta wheel if you like, which was an aftermarket wheel for the Porsche 911 amongst others and several group 4 rally cars of the period.

An exact replica can be produced but you can double the price and 60 fronts and 60 rears would need to be ordered.

There is now a 7" which will also go into production, the design has been signed off and the wheel as it is in this CAD drawing is what will be produced. The Group 4 Wheels logo can also be deleted.


Regards

Jonathan

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D dickruzzinMember
Jonathon,
Originally you indicated that making a vintage appearing Mangusta wheel was your intent. That certainly got everyone excited. I can understand that others could use it for various other cars, that makes economic sense.

Why do their needs trump the vintage Mangusta look? I would think they would not care, or it might even be a marketing advantage to claim "original MANGUSTA look".

I could easily adjust the spacing and put my original rear wheels on the front and have the fronts widened to my specific specifications for the rear. This would give me the size I want for a lot less money and risk. That means my originals are also on the car, but I do not have spares.

I think the wheels you are doing should be modified to look like the originals, not the second design that came later as they will look like modern after-market wheels on a Mangusta.
DICK RUZZIN
G group4wheelsMember
quote:
Originally posted by Dick Ruzzin:
Jonathon,
Originally you indicated that making a vintage appearing Mangusta wheel was your intent. That certainly got everyone excited. I can understand that others could use it for various other cars, that makes economic sense.

Why do their needs trump the vintage Mangusta look? I would think they would not care, or it might even be a marketing advantage to claim "original MANGUSTA look".

I could easily adjust the spacing and put my original rear wheels on the front and have the fronts widened to my specific specifications for the rear. This would give me the size I want for a lot less money and risk. That means my originals are also on the car, but I do not have spares.

I think the wheels you are doing should be modified to look like the originals, not the second design that came later as they will look like modern after-market wheels on a Mangusta.
DICK RUZZIN


Hi Dick,

I think the wheel certainly looks like a Mangusta wheel, obviously we've had to make our own interpretation because we're making different sizes but a family resemblance is definatey there.

Anyway, things have been moving along nicely and all design work is now complete. Attached are drawings for 7, and 9 x 15's.


Regards

Jonathan

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markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
I trust that the Mangusta versions will be 4-bolt and not 5-bolt?

Just from curiosity, does this design duplicate another vintage wheel that is intended for the broader market you mentioned, or is it just somewhere between two existing designs (the Mangusta wheel and ???). If it is a unique design then given how close you are to the original Mangusta design, why not do as Dick suggests and make it highly accurate for at least the Mangusta. Would the "other" market be less interested in it, or even care in the same way we "Goose" owners do?

Also, my opinion (just one, I realize) is that having such a large and prominent "brand" on a vintage-focused wheel looks wrong. I'm pretty sure that if the wheels look right, fit right and perform as they are expected to, you won't need any markings on them. The owners will be passing out cards on your behalf to any prospective future customers. If the branding was in the same discrete manner used by Campagnolo, I doubt anyone would object.

I appreciate Dick raising the centre disc-mounting issue. Is he correct that there will not be a possibility to retain the DeTomaso disc in any way? It appears that way in the section view shown.

Mark
MM Mr. Mangusta (Guest)
Jonathan,
Wonderful job!!! Your wheel designs look fantastic. Finally a modern replacement wheel for the Mangusta. What ever your final design comes out to be, I will be in line for 5 (spare included!) Your efforts are appreciated. CONGRATULATIONS and all the best with your project. MM.
G group4wheelsMember
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
I trust that the Mangusta versions will be 4-bolt and not 5-bolt?

Just from curiosity, does this design duplicate another vintage wheel that is intended for the broader market you mentioned, or is it just somewhere between two existing designs (the Mangusta wheel and ???). If it is a unique design then given how close you are to the original Mangusta design, why not do as Dick suggests and make it highly accurate for at least the Mangusta. Would the "other" market be less interested in it, or even care in the same way we "Goose" owners do?

Also, my opinion (just one, I realize) is that having such a large and prominent "brand" on a vintage-focused wheel looks wrong. I'm pretty sure that if the wheels look right, fit right and perform as they are expected to, you won't need any markings on them. The owners will be passing out cards on your behalf to any prospective future customers. If the branding was in the same discrete manner used by Campagnolo, I doubt anyone would object.

I appreciate Dick raising the centre disc-mounting issue. Is he correct that there will not be a possibility to retain the DeTomaso disc in any way? It appears that way in the section view shown.

Mark


Hi Mark,

What had a big influence were 2 things, the rear wheel on the Mangusta Spyder as shown on page 1 and also the following 2 pictures:

Wheel will be 4 stud for those from here that want it and there will be a small deletion charge for the logo as wheel has to go through another cnc process.

Centre bowl is dished as this added a huge amount of strength to the wheel, a De Tomaso badge will be in the offering.


Regards

Jonathan

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G group4wheelsMember
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Mangusta:
Jonathan,
Wonderful job!!! Your wheel designs look fantastic. Finally a modern replacement wheel for the Mangusta. What ever your final design comes out to be, I will be in line for 5 (spare included!) Your efforts are appreciated. CONGRATULATIONS and all the best with your project. MM.


MM,

Thanks! Smiler


Regards

Jonathan
G group4wheelsMember
Hi All,

Not very exciting photo's I'm afraid, they should start later this week...I hope.

(No.1 is bottom picture & work up).

1. Please find attached the photo of the finishing cut of the lower bottom core face. As you see it is where the 7 8 and 9” upper bottom sections will locate.

2. Please find attached the picture of the underside of the 8” upper section of the bottom core in the cnc.

3. Find attached photo of 7” upper bottom core having the rear location profile machined.


Regards

Jonathan

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