NEW Mangusta Wheel by Group 4 Wheels

8"

9"

10"

Jonathan,

Very nice! I can't wait to see what the cost work out to be. There are several Mangusta owners in the UK and I'm sure it would not be too difficult to connect you with someone so as to verify details that my impact fit, as Patrick has offered for his GR4 project.

I think these look great. One thought would be to narrow the ribs a tad on the 8" wheel because if you compare them to an original wheel they are quite stout. I quite like what you've done as it looks more robust (and matches the 10" wheel more closely) but some may feel it's too much a departure. I realize that you are probably only able to reference the one image posted of the 10" wheel. Here's a stock (later) 8" "Rear" wheel as reference.

I'm looking forward to the numbers when you get that far.

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Marc
I spoke to Jonathan this afternoon, and we are going to meet in the coming weeks . I will go and visit the manufacturing plant
Should we open a Pantera GR4 wheels topic ? George CowBoy ?
It now is in the pipeline... and I must say , after talking to Jonathan, that it looks serious . We are now considering alternatives between aluminium and magnesium,( pricewise) depending on use ( road or track ) but also an enlightened version of aluminium wheel for race use ONLY.( no sidewalks, no curbs, ... what about rumbling strips ? )
Not suspended weight is a key issue when it comes to racing, and I would appreciate to have further comments on that aspect from " those who know" .
Pantera boyzzzzzzzzzz, put one or two Campagnolo GR4 sest of wheels ( 10 and 14 ) on top of your Santa's list . It might happen this time, unless Cesare wakes up ! Cesare ?
I also must stress that jonathan has full product liability insurance, certificate of garantee, ... and I am sure we'll work something " intelligent, fit for the job,adequately priced ( hopefully ) and appropriate" together

If you look at this wheel it doesn't look so delicate, it looks more "Butch" with what seem to be wider ribs, I think it suits the extra dish, otherwise the ribs could look a little lost....?

I'm not saying ours IS right, there's still work to do and the nice thing is that everyone has an imput.


Regards

Jonathan

Jonathan,

I agree with you about the more solid look. I'm just anticipating the purist response. Please do whatever is needed to garner the most orders to get the project moving.

Either way, please put me at the front of the line. A nice fancy set of new wheels is just the kick in the butt I need to get my restoration project started.

Patrick, I hope the meeting goes well and that you FINALLY end up with some spare wheels for heavy track use. Exciting times!

Mark

I like the look of the wheel. I also agree with Mark, the ribs should be a bit slimmer and smoother around the edges to better match the original look. As with the Pantera Campy clones a larger diameter would be better to run more modern tire configurations. Perhaps at least a 17 inch diameter would be better. With 15 inch diameter there are very limited tires that can be used. Mostly BFG radial TA which is really old technology and not very sticky or good in the wet. If there are larger diameter wheels count me in for a set. Ben

Jonathan,
The presentation is very nice and the wheels look very good. It is the subtleties and the major theme that make the Mangusta wheelsso perfect for the car as the originals have a "hand made look". The unusual aesthetic part of the original is the I-Beam spoke. Also, as someone mentioned, the original car had deep dish wheels that had a large offset and were great looking, better than the final production wheel.
Having said that. Your wheels can be improved significantly in the spoke area from my viewpoint as a Mangusta purist. The blade on the I-Beam spoke is too wide, the section could be tapered from the base and rolled off at the end on both sides. This would also make it look narrower, like the original. If you executed it like the prototype wheel with a large filet as it blends with the rim it would look fantastic. This could be done on all sizes.
Since you are doing this in CAD, can you try what I have described as a comparison to what you have?
Dick Ruzzin

Jonathon,
My following comparison is to the first Mangusta prototype wheel in the rear, the car was a coupe with a golden tone to the paint, that rear wheel had a fileted spoke intersecting the rim.

Dick Ruzzin

Jonathan,
Looking again there are two other major things, 1) The boss for the emblem is missing. You probably were going to add this.
2)The spokes intersect a flat surface on the hub that the original did not have, making the holes smaller.
Can it be made narrower so that it is not a major part of the theme?

Dick Ruzzin

Jonathan,
One more. The wheels look modern, flat surfaces, corners and milled rather than cast. That is in the execution of the surfaces and intersections. Example, the rim section.
If you can spend a little time looking carefully at the original and softening intersections and slightly curving surfaces it will start to look more in character with it. This is a big detraction as the theme is the same but the wheel character is different.
Dick Ruzzin (+313-824-0539)

Dick is making some great comments to move the subtle details towards the original design. Nobody will have a better eye for the details than Dick does.

I for one will always keep my original wheels and "wear" them when the car is on display. I want to preserve my rare original wheels and, like with my Pantera, having a set of modern wheels/tires on the car when doing long road trips is what I'm looking for. I'm not as concerned if these new wheels don't replicate the originals exactly because I will never present them as such. I just love the original Mangusta wheel design (in the same way I love the original Pantera 10" wide Campys) and want a "modern" version for every-day use.

Keep up the great effort Jonathan!

Mark

Hi All,

I think thanks should go out to Dick for all his work that he is about to embark on!!

"My" design for the Mangusta wheel if I'm being totally honest was an amalgamation of Mangusta/Fiat 131 Abarth Group 4 and Porsche 911 RSR Campagnolo as it was also an after market wheel, similar in design to the Mangusta wheel.

We had designed the wheel with -12 to +12 ET on the 8". Along with the 9" that I proposed in the first place the 2 sizes would fit several applications and make the wheel more affordable due to it's (relative) bigger market.

The more I have got involved here, it hasn't taken me too long to realise that a stand alone wheel is needed for the Mangusta. This however makes the exercise more costly.

What I propose, after a little reading/research, is an 8 x 17 and a 10 x 17 to make full use of tyre availability. What we would do is to produce a brand new rim form (the wall of the wheel), top core (face back) and bottom cores (face), this way we can produce an enlarged exact copy of the original wheel.

A costing has been carried out for this and a set of 4 wheels in low pressure die cast LM7 alloy would cost £1740, around $2800, these figures are based on 60 front and 60 rear wheels. Wheels are guarenteed for race/rally applications and come with full product liability insurance.

Everyone would be involved in the design process and have their say and see the wheel evolve from CAD and technical drawings, through the production process to finished product.

Your thoughts....?


Regards

Jonathan

Well, $ 2,800 is better that the $ 4,000 + price that the Fiat deal on Ebay charges for after market 10 X 15 Mangusta wheels.

The price sound quite fair. Certainly cheaper than an original wheel. Low pressure cast should be cheaper. Forged may be more expensive. As long as the wheel carries more of the original styling, count me in. I am pleased you chose 17" as compared with 15". The tyre choices are far more and better and in my opinion will look nicer yet keeping the stock look. Very similar to how Campy clones look on the Pantera. Looks like they blend well with the original car yet still keeps a bit of the modern technologies so the car handles and drives better. I have a set of 18 inch customs on my car but if you make the 17" Mangusta clones I would far prefer a more original look. The closer the look of the wheel to the styling of the original Mangusta rim the better. I think there should be an option of painted silver vs. a polished look. I personally like the polished look. Ben

Hi All,

Well....it would seem that some people want 15's and some 17's, so the obvious thing to do here is start a list of who wants what.

Just so you know, a set of 4 x 15's, 2 x 8's & 2 x 10's would come in at £1640 sterling, based on 60 fronts and 60 rears.

If numbers are sufficient for both 15's and 17's then they can both be put into production, if youd like both...FANTASTIC!

Can you please put your name down followed by quantity of F (front) & R (rear), eg 1. Jonathan Sage 3f 3r.

Forged wheels by the way are a big NO, NO....a 6 figure tooling set up for starters!

CAN YOU PLEASE ADD YOUR NAME BY COPPY AND PASTE.


15"

1. Stoner: 3f (15x8); 2r (15x10) Assuming the final product more closely approximates the look of the original Mangusta wheel
2.
3.



17"

1.
2.
3.

Further to my talk with Joinathan two days ago, it appears that the same amount of wheels ( 60 ) would be required to launch a minimum production for Pantera GR4 wheels.
Jonathan is working on pricing right now, so get ready if price is acceptable.
Lead time for delivery would be around 3 months after prototype is validated.

Jerry Brubaker 17" 3(F), 3 (R) sorry I don't know how to cut
and paste.

15" Dia. Wheels:

1. Stoner: 3f (15x8); 2r (15x10) Assuming the final product more closely approximates the look of the original Mangusta wheel
2. *Mark Charlton: 2f (15x8); 2r (15x10) Assuming the same as above
3.



17" Dia. Wheels:

1. Jerry Bruebaker: 3f (17x8); 3r (17x10)
2. *Mark Charlton: 2f (17x8); 2r (17x10)
3.

* = Are somewhat flexible and will likely go with the majority size if only one size is made and are not likely to purchase TWO sets.
(If no "*" and your name is on both lists then you want BOTH sizes).


Mark

What is the story on the GP IV wheels. Jonathan or Patrick - can you update us on these? Are we talking true to form 10 and 13" wide GP IV rims like the original campi's? 15" diameter. Aluminum or Mag. My vote is Alum. for ease of use on the street and price. I would be up for a set for sure (price dependant of course). Please let us all know any updates.

thanks

Jonathan and I are talking about 10 and 14 x 15, aluminium, street or track day, plus an " enlightened " aluminium version for racing use only.
Minimum order should be around 60 wheels front and 60 rears.
As I earlier said, get ready for Santa Claus...
The wheels would be an exact replica of my original GR4 magnesium wheels as seen on Candy 2862 at the Le Mans Classic races in 2008 and 2010.
Wheels would be "product liability garanteed and insured, certified, numbered, ... A professional job.

Patrick
Definately keep me posted.
Lee

AH AH AH... Darlin' , we need a 60 wheels (per type firm order... I won't forget you ! Let me get back to you very soon . I'm good for 2 cars ( 8 wheels in total, 4 per type ) that leaves me with just 56 wheels to pay !( per type, of course....that's 112 wheels, more than my small garage can take )Even if it's not overexpensive, it still means ALOT of hard earned cash :>)

Let's put out an all points alert with the clubs, etc. I only stumbled upon this thread today by dumb luck.

If you post another thread above in the pantera section, I bet you will get more interest.

56 wheels on the wall, 56 wheels on the wall,,,

cheers

I'm in for 17" 2F & 2R

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
15" Dia. Wheels:

1. Stoner: 3f (15x8); 2r (15x10) Assuming the final product more closely approximates the look of the original Mangusta wheel
2. *Mark Charlton: 2f (15x8); 2r (15x10) Assuming the same as above
3. JMM3 2f (15x8); 2r (15x10) Assuming the same as above .



17" Dia. Wheels:

1. Jerry Bruebaker: 3f (17x8); 3r (17x10)
2. *Mark Charlton: 2f (17x8); 2r (17x10)
3.

* = Are somewhat flexible and will likely go with the majority size if only one size is made and are not likely to purchase TWO sets.
(If no "*" and your name is on both lists then you want BOTH sizes).


Mark

Put me in for a set of 17" wheels. Ben

Mark, I may be mistaken, but those 10" 4-bolt Goose rear wheels you pictured in the early part of this thread closely resemble the Campy wheels used on the one-off DeTomaso/Shelby Sports 5000 racer DeTomaso tried to sell in the early '60s. And since that chassis apparently was the basis of the Mangusta, there's no reason those wheels won't fit perfectly. In 30 years, I've only ever seen a few sets of those rare wheels- on Steve Nanny's 'Goose Roadster and the Sports 5000 at the old museum, plus a loose wheel or two for sale here and there. Was the Roadster the source of your photo?

Yes Jack, it was the Mangusta Spyder. What a stunning car it is in person too. Although the wheels look VERY close to the ones on the Sport 5000, it looks to me that the Spyder wheels are wider and have a deeper dish to them (from the spokes back). Without a side-by-side comparison, I couldn't be sure. All I know is they are awesome looking wheels and look perfect on a Mangusta.

I was told there were originally only three sets of those wheels and they will fit any Goose.

I hope more guys come out of the woodwork to make enough ordering volume to get some copies produced.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Steve Nanny's 'Goose Roadster

Jack, Who is Steve Nanny? Is he the prior owner of 8MA512 / Fred P / Greek .

man I LOVE that racecar! Hey some of you are active on the F-chat 'Mangusta thread', do you think Jon ought to mention this wheel topic there? I suggested it to him, what do you all think? There are a number of Mangusta's owned by serious collectors who are NOT active here, but are there, seems if you want interest - gotta let em know?....just tryin to help

quote:

Originally posted by Denis C:
Who is Steve Nanny? Is he the prior owner of 8MA512?.

quote:

Originally posted by Mang:
Hey some of you are active on the F-chat 'Mangusta thread', do you think Jon ought to mention this wheel topic there? I suggested it to him, what do you all think? There are a number of Mangusta's owned by serious collectors who are NOT active here, but are there, seems if you want interest - gotta let em know?....just tryin to help

Yes. x 2

Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
15" Dia. Wheels:

1. Stoner: 3f (15x8); 2r (15x10) Assuming the final product more closely approximates the look of the original Mangusta wheel
2. *Mark Charlton: 2f (15x8); 2r (15x10) Assuming the same as above
3. JMM3 2f (15x8); 2r (15x10) Assuming the same as above .



17" Dia. Wheels:

1. Jerry Bruebaker: 3f (17x8); 3r (17x10)
2. *Mark Charlton: 2f (17x8); 2r (17x10)
3. benchu : 2f (17x8); 2r (17x10)

* = Are somewhat flexible and will likely go with the majority size if only one size is made and are not likely to purchase TWO sets.
(If no "*" and your name is on both lists then you want BOTH sizes).

Hi All,

I've joined up to F-chat and made contact with Daryl who took some pretty good measurements of a wheel for a project, something I need to be able to produce a better rendition.

To do an exact replica in either 15" or 17" (then it wouldn't be exact) we need to spread the word on all forums out there.

I will be introducing myself on F-chat tomorrow and will present something that may appease those wanting 15's...after I've presented it here 1st obviously.


Regards

Jonathan

quote:

Jack, Who is Steve Nanny? Is he the prior owner of 8MA512 / Fred P / Greek

If it's been sold, then yes- he's also the one responsible for writing the big check for the original CA restoration. Info's in a one-sentence line- pg 92 in Wally Weiss' book DeTomaso: The Man and the Machines, 2nd edition. There's a unique overhead shot of the Roadster, too.

I just re-read my order for 17" 3 fronts and 3 rears,
I don't know what I was thinking about. I need 2 full
sets of 17" wheels if they are to be made. Thank you.

Hi All,

Apologies for the lack of a recent update as I said I would, a change of ISP provider... and I'm still not on line, have had to come to my brothers to type this...but I got fed, so not all bad then.

I was always going to produce a 15" Campagnolo type wheel and my initial thought as previously stated was to make a wheel that would cover many bases and therefor make it affordable. I know that the Mangusta community is a rather small one and getting the required numbers together to produce a "Mangusta" wheel may prove fairly difficult.

I wasn't happy with my initial universal proposal and went back to the drawing board. I decided to put my short arms into my long pockets and realized that a new "rim form" would need manufacturing to produce that large 2nd step, small open section.

What you see below is a 8 x 15 and 9 x 15, both of which will be going into production and will be available for sale in 2 - 3 months. The 8" will be priced at £250 each and the 9" at £275.

Modern Tyre availability is not a problem for these wheel sizes.

There will be various offsets (back space) available so we can make the 9" sit where the 10" would.

Again, could interested parties please form an orderly queue.

8"

9"

8" & 9"

I would be interested in a set of the 15", what do you need from me.
William

I would meet up in person to pay for a set of 15" Gr4 wheels in 10" and 14" if that subject comes up....

Pål-A Grøva
(Puts my name down right away to get the ball rolling...)

Great work Jonathan,

What tire sizes do you suggest for these? I'm definitely in for a set and am glad the rear offsets can be adjusted to sit further out.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
Great work Jonathan,

What tire sizes do you suggest for these? I'm definitely in for a set and am glad the rear offsets can be adjusted to sit further out.

Mark

Hi Mark,

205's on the 8's and 225's on the 9's....that's what I'm going to be running, sadly not on a Mangusta.


Regards

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by Wellis:
I would be interested in a set of the 15", what do you need from me.
William

Hi William,

At present, absolutely nothing!

What I'll be doing is taking you all on a journey from concept/design through all the different stages of production to final product.

Perhaps if I start (another) list of "Interested parties". I'll start the ball rolling 'cause I sure want a set of these!

1. Jonathan Sage 2 x 8's & 2 x 9's
2. William 2 x 8's & 2 x 9's
3. Mark Charlton 2 x 8's & 2 x 9's
4. Pal-A Grova (was this for this or Gr4 wheels)?
5.

quote:

Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
I was always going to produce a 15" Campagnolo type wheel and my initial thought as previously stated was to make a wheel that would cover many bases and therefor make it affordable. I know that the Mangusta community is a rather small one and getting the required numbers together to produce a "Mangusta" wheel may prove fairly difficult.

I'd be interested in a pair of 15" pre-L style Campys for my Pantera. Any timeline available?

....

quote:

Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
205's on the 8's and 225's on the 9's
Jonathan

Jonathan,

That's pretty narrow rubber on the rears, although historically correct. I think the factory sizes were: front 185/70/15 and rear 225/70/15. I do not think a 225/70/15 tire will fit a 9" rim, as the recommended width would be 7.5" for that tire width.

I feel something much beefier would be much better. I was hoping to run 295/50/15 tires which was why I wanted the 10" rims. Might be good to get input from other before committing to the narrower 9" wheel. I think on the 9" wheel a 275/50/15 would be the widest tire one would want to go, but a 225 would be too narrow.

Tire Size comparisons:
225/70/15 = 27.4" dia. (factory tire size) on a 6" to 7.5" wide rim
275/60/15 = 28" dia. on a 7.5" to 9.5" wide rim
295/50/15 = 26.7" dia. on a 8" to 10" wide rim

So, I renew my plea for the 10" wide rim. and in silver for mine.

Mark

I would like to go the same way, 10x15 rears in silver.

quote:

Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
Hi All,

I'll have another update on wheel design on Monday, these will be for 8's & 9's.

OK you guys, I'll make you a 10" rear if you get 40 pieces between you, I'll have a 10" proposal done early next week.

With my honesty cap on and not my salesmans cap....I'll always have 8's but if you want 10's, buy 3 as I can't guarentee that I'll ever make more than one set (60 wheels). I think I can sell a few to those with tarmac spec Fiat 131 Abarth Group 4 cars, it's a small market!

So come on, get on the forums and tell your friends....let's make it happen!


Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

This is "The Wheel", which will end up on your car.....I hope!

We've made a few subtle modifications like tapering the back spokes and softening a couple of areas.

In the 8 & 9" picture the wheel is shown with a "block rim form" (no lip), the wheel is cast with the lip, giving that "aged" appearance, this was originally used to attach balance weights to. If wanted, the wheel can be supplied without the lip at no extra cost.

Once machining starts on the dies i will be taking orders....money.

I have an "Ace" up my sleeve which I'll play tomorrow! ....

Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

If enough interest is out there then I'll do a 10 x 15".

Price wise, looking at about £315.


Regards

Jonathan

Your last post, is that a 9 or 10 inch wheel?

Ooops...sorry. That's the 9", I meant this one:

I would would go for a pair like that with the lip.

Hi Jonathan,

I am probably just getting dizzy from the options, but I think a re-cap of your plan/pricing/detail and options may be in order.

Here is my understanding:
• you plan to make 8" and 9" wide wheels regardless because you have a wider (non-Mangusta) market for those sizes.
• cost for 8" wheel is £250 for the 8" and £275 for the 9"
• wheels will be available with or without the outer lip as a no-cost choice.
• wheel finish will be silver (I hope) or gold for up-charge of?
• back-spacing will be variable (with a range of ???) as a no-cost choice
• a 10" wide wheel will be available if orders can be secured for 40 pcs

Here are my questions:
• what will ordering/deposit (amount?) process be?
• what will the time/cut-off be for the decision regarding the 10" vs. 9" wheels (those who want the 10's will likely not want the 9's unless the 10's don't get produced)?
• how will wheels be packed/shipped to the Americas, and at what cost (per set of 4)? Do you have a distribution channel here yet?
• what will the wheel finish be (can you post a photo?)
• will you somehow be able to verify clearance and fit PRIOR to production? (there are a number of Mangustas in the UK and I'm sure we could connect you to someone able to assist with making a car/factory wheel available for measurements.
• how are wheels being constructed (cast/machined) and what "certification" will they carry?
• will the wheels be branded (raised or recessed?) as shown in your renderings?
• what is timeline from deposit to shipping?

Thanks again for the initiative and great work this far on this. I truly hope these DO get produced and appreciate what you've done to appease everyone.

Mark

Hi Mark/All,

I am probably just getting dizzy from the options, but I think a re-cap of your plan/pricing/detail and options may be in order.

Here is my understanding:
• you plan to make 8" and 9" wide wheels regardless because you have a wider (non-Mangusta) market for those sizes. correct
• cost for 8" wheel is £250 for the 8" and £275 for the 9" prices may vary by £5 or £10, depends on aluminium costs at time. 10" £315
• wheels will be available with or without the outer lip as a no-cost choice. correct
• wheel finish will be silver (I hope) or gold for up-charge of? silver is the default colour, gold a no cost option.
• back-spacing will be variable (with a range of ???) as a no-cost choice correct, back space is variable should you want a 9" for the back and space it out to a 10".
• a 10" wide wheel will be available if orders can be secured for 40 pcs correct

Here are my questions:
• what will ordering/deposit (amount?) process be? I'm currently setting up a secure payment page with Visa merchant services. 50% deposit with full payment before shipping.
• what will the time/cut-off be for the decision regarding the 10" vs. 9" wheels (those who want the 10's will likely not want the 9's unless the 10's don't get produced)? For me, it would be beneficial if everyone had 9's as on 1 batch (60) of 10's I would only get my money back....but like everyone here, I'm a petrolhead and would love to see the 10's made because looking at the bigger picture, it could lead to other things. NO CUT OFF TIME, GET 40 PIECES ACCOUNTED FOR AND I'LL MAKE THEM!

If you are thinking of 10's for the rear, buy a spare, I can't see another run being done.

• how will wheels be packed/shipped to the Americas, and at what cost (per set of 4)? Do you have a distribution channel here yet? Wheels will either be packed 1 or 2 to a box, depending on size, partitioned and strapped. I do not have any dealers as this would make the wheels more expensive. Cost to ship 4 wheels to USA is around £85 by Fedex.
• what will the wheel finish be (can you post a photo?) Will post a picture of my other wheels shortly.
• will you somehow be able to verify clearance and fit PRIOR to production? (there are a number of Mangustas in the UK and I'm sure we could connect you to someone able to assist with making a car/factory wheel available for measurements. Wheels will be guarenteed to fit. If someone knows someone here in UK with a Mangusta, GREAT! "Cross the T's and dot the I's".
• how are wheels being constructed (cast/machined) and what "certification" will they carry? Wheels are low pressure die cast and then go through various CNC processes. ISO 9000 certification.
• will the wheels be branded (raised or recessed?) as shown in your renderings? Branding is recessed, this can be deleted but unfortunately will carry a surcharge.
• what is timeline from deposit to shipping? 8's and 9's will be ready end of August, 10's are down to you guys. Deposits will start to be taken begining of July.

Thanks again for the initiative and great work this far on this. I truly hope these DO get produced and appreciate what you've done to appease everyone. ....

I hope this helps, any other questions, feel free to ask.

Jonathan

quote:

will the wheels be branded (raised or recessed?) as shown in your renderings? Branding is recessed, this can be deleted but unfortunately will carry a surcharge.

Just a question... Can the branding be put on the inside/backside of the rim rather than the outside?

Translated for the US audience, as of June 17, 2011:

quote:

Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
Hi Mark/All,

I am probably just getting dizzy from the options, but I think a re-cap of your plan/pricing/detail and options may be in order.

Here is my understanding:
• you plan to make 8" and 9" wide wheels regardless because you have a wider (non-Mangusta) market for those sizes. correct
• cost for 8" wheel is $405 for the 8" and $445 for the 9" prices may vary by $8 or $16, depends on aluminium costs at time. 10" $607
• wheels will be available with or without the outer lip as a no-cost choice. correct
• wheel finish will be silver (I hope) or gold for up-charge of? silver is the default colour, gold a no cost option.
• back-spacing will be variable (with a range of ???) as a no-cost choice correct, back space is variable should you want a 9" for the back and space it out to a 10".
• a 10" wide wheel will be available if orders can be secured for 40 pcs correct

Here are my questions:
• what will ordering/deposit (amount?) process be? I'm currently setting up a secure payment page with Visa merchant services. 50% deposit with full payment before shipping.
• what will the time/cut-off be for the decision regarding the 10" vs. 9" wheels (those who want the 10's will likely not want the 9's unless the 10's don't get produced)? For me, it would be beneficial if everyone had 9's as on 1 batch (60) of 10's I would only get my money back....but like everyone here, I'm a petrolhead and would love to see the 10's made because looking at the bigger picture, it could lead to other things. NO CUT OFF TIME, GET 40 PIECES ACCOUNTED FOR AND I'LL MAKE THEM!

If you are thinking of 10's for the rear, buy a spare, I can't see another run being done.

• how will wheels be packed/shipped to the Americas, and at what cost (per set of 4)? Do you have a distribution channel here yet? Wheels will either be packed 1 or 2 to a box, depending on size, partitioned and strapped. I do not have any dealers as this would make the wheels more expensive. Cost to ship 4 wheels to USA is around $138 by Fedex.
• what will the wheel finish be (can you post a photo?) Will post a picture of my other wheels shortly.
• will you somehow be able to verify clearance and fit PRIOR to production? (there are a number of Mangustas in the UK and I'm sure we could connect you to someone able to assist with making a car/factory wheel available for measurements. Wheels will be guarenteed to fit. If someone knows someone here in UK with a Mangusta, GREAT! "Cross the T's and dot the I's".
• how are wheels being constructed (cast/machined) and what "certification" will they carry? Wheels are low pressure die cast and then go through various CNC processes. ISO 9000 certification.
• will the wheels be branded (raised or recessed?) as shown in your renderings? Branding is recessed, this can be deleted but unfortunately will carry a surcharge.
• what is timeline from deposit to shipping? 8's and 9's will be ready end of August, 10's are down to you guys. Deposits will start to be taken begining of July.

Thanks again for the initiative and great work this far on this. I truly hope these DO get produced and appreciate what you've done to appease everyone. ....

I hope this helps, any other questions, feel free to ask.

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by garth66:

quote:

will the wheels be branded (raised or recessed?) as shown in your renderings? Branding is recessed, this can be deleted but unfortunately will carry a surcharge.

Just a question... Can the branding be put on the inside/backside of the rim rather than the outside?

It's on the inside as well!

I would rather not delete it and I won't be offering the option to anyone else. I originally said it would be a FREE deletion but it's another CNC process, the cost for deletion is £10 per wheel.


Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

By early next week I'll have the technical drawing for the 8 x 15" wheel which I'll post up. At this point I'll start a new thread (to keep things clear) for orders, once this hits 40 units for the 10", I'll take deposits and put the "Wheels in motion" , sorry, couldn't help it.

The 8 & 9" will be ready at the end of August, please bear in mind that the extra time it takes to get to 40 units is roughly the the amount of time you'll have to wait after the 8/9" arrives.


Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

Sorry this took loner than expected. FEA (finite element analysis) has now been completed and what we have is a VERY strong and light wheel.

Things will really start to move quickly now with the possibility of the bottom die (face) starting to get CNC'd next week!!!

What I think we should do is star a new "Thread" for orders only and keep discussion/update "Here".


Regards

Jonathan

I think you changed the design too much. The lack of a wheel weight rim on the front face, the flat blades with sharp corners, no provision for mounting the emblem and a very different central hub. Also a lack of detail, filets, etc. The bolt area seems to be a curved surface, that I cannot understand. Also the openings between the spokes have a flat surface at the central hub which really changes the design. The design you show looks like a brand new wheel, it should have the character of the hand modeled original, which it could. I think you are rushing this wheel and really do not care about having an authentic look.

These deficiencies were all discussed with you early in the dialogue about your proposal and were clearly displayed in the images that I sent to you.

Disappointing. A nice wheel but not a Mangusta wheel.

Hi All,

Not sure where the technical drawing has gone, can anyone help?

I was showing the wheel with a "Block form rim" just so one could compare it with what had gone before. Attached is a CAD drawing of how the wheel will be made which is with the "wheel weight rim"...there is a deletion option.

Dick, as previously stated, this is NOT a wheel solely for you guys. It's based on a VERY similar wheel that Campagnolo produced, an evolution of the Mangusta wheel if you like, which was an aftermarket wheel for the Porsche 911 amongst others and several group 4 rally cars of the period.

An exact replica can be produced but you can double the price and 60 fronts and 60 rears would need to be ordered.

There is now a 7" which will also go into production, the design has been signed off and the wheel as it is in this CAD drawing is what will be produced. The Group 4 Wheels logo can also be deleted.


Regards

Jonathan

Jonathon,
Originally you indicated that making a vintage appearing Mangusta wheel was your intent. That certainly got everyone excited. I can understand that others could use it for various other cars, that makes economic sense.

Why do their needs trump the vintage Mangusta look? I would think they would not care, or it might even be a marketing advantage to claim "original MANGUSTA look".

I could easily adjust the spacing and put my original rear wheels on the front and have the fronts widened to my specific specifications for the rear. This would give me the size I want for a lot less money and risk. That means my originals are also on the car, but I do not have spares.

I think the wheels you are doing should be modified to look like the originals, not the second design that came later as they will look like modern after-market wheels on a Mangusta.
DICK RUZZIN

quote:

Originally posted by Dick Ruzzin:
Jonathon,
Originally you indicated that making a vintage appearing Mangusta wheel was your intent. That certainly got everyone excited. I can understand that others could use it for various other cars, that makes economic sense.

Why do their needs trump the vintage Mangusta look? I would think they would not care, or it might even be a marketing advantage to claim "original MANGUSTA look".

I could easily adjust the spacing and put my original rear wheels on the front and have the fronts widened to my specific specifications for the rear. This would give me the size I want for a lot less money and risk. That means my originals are also on the car, but I do not have spares.

I think the wheels you are doing should be modified to look like the originals, not the second design that came later as they will look like modern after-market wheels on a Mangusta.
DICK RUZZIN

Hi Dick,

I think the wheel certainly looks like a Mangusta wheel, obviously we've had to make our own interpretation because we're making different sizes but a family resemblance is definatey there.

Anyway, things have been moving along nicely and all design work is now complete. Attached are drawings for 7, and 9 x 15's.


Regards

Jonathan

9"

I trust that the Mangusta versions will be 4-bolt and not 5-bolt?

Just from curiosity, does this design duplicate another vintage wheel that is intended for the broader market you mentioned, or is it just somewhere between two existing designs (the Mangusta wheel and ???). If it is a unique design then given how close you are to the original Mangusta design, why not do as Dick suggests and make it highly accurate for at least the Mangusta. Would the "other" market be less interested in it, or even care in the same way we "Goose" owners do?

Also, my opinion (just one, I realize) is that having such a large and prominent "brand" on a vintage-focused wheel looks wrong. I'm pretty sure that if the wheels look right, fit right and perform as they are expected to, you won't need any markings on them. The owners will be passing out cards on your behalf to any prospective future customers. If the branding was in the same discrete manner used by Campagnolo, I doubt anyone would object.

I appreciate Dick raising the centre disc-mounting issue. Is he correct that there will not be a possibility to retain the DeTomaso disc in any way? It appears that way in the section view shown.

Mark

Jonathan,
Wonderful job!!! Your wheel designs look fantastic. Finally a modern replacement wheel for the Mangusta. What ever your final design comes out to be, I will be in line for 5 (spare included!) Your efforts are appreciated. CONGRATULATIONS and all the best with your project. MM.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
I trust that the Mangusta versions will be 4-bolt and not 5-bolt?

Just from curiosity, does this design duplicate another vintage wheel that is intended for the broader market you mentioned, or is it just somewhere between two existing designs (the Mangusta wheel and ???). If it is a unique design then given how close you are to the original Mangusta design, why not do as Dick suggests and make it highly accurate for at least the Mangusta. Would the "other" market be less interested in it, or even care in the same way we "Goose" owners do?

Also, my opinion (just one, I realize) is that having such a large and prominent "brand" on a vintage-focused wheel looks wrong. I'm pretty sure that if the wheels look right, fit right and perform as they are expected to, you won't need any markings on them. The owners will be passing out cards on your behalf to any prospective future customers. If the branding was in the same discrete manner used by Campagnolo, I doubt anyone would object.

I appreciate Dick raising the centre disc-mounting issue. Is he correct that there will not be a possibility to retain the DeTomaso disc in any way? It appears that way in the section view shown.

Mark

Hi Mark,

What had a big influence were 2 things, the rear wheel on the Mangusta Spyder as shown on page 1 and also the following 2 pictures:

Wheel will be 4 stud for those from here that want it and there will be a small deletion charge for the logo as wheel has to go through another cnc process.

Centre bowl is dished as this added a huge amount of strength to the wheel, a De Tomaso badge will be in the offering.


Regards

Jonathan

And Fiat 131 Abarth Group 4

Hi All....again,

Things should start to move quickly now and all the EN8 steel is in to produce the bottom cores (face). If were lucky, machining may start this afternoon.


Regards

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Mangusta:
Jonathan,
Wonderful job!!! Your wheel designs look fantastic. Finally a modern replacement wheel for the Mangusta. What ever your final design comes out to be, I will be in line for 5 (spare included!) Your efforts are appreciated. CONGRATULATIONS and all the best with your project. MM.

MM,

Thanks!


Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

Not very exciting photo's I'm afraid, they should start later this week...I hope.

(No.1 is bottom picture & work up).

1. Please find attached the photo of the finishing cut of the lower bottom core face. As you see it is where the 7 8 and 9” upper bottom sections will locate.

2. Please find attached the picture of the underside of the 8” upper section of the bottom core in the cnc.

3. Find attached photo of 7” upper bottom core having the rear location profile machined.


Regards

Jonathan

2.

3.

Hi All,

Haven't posted on here for a while, sorry, have missed 1 update but a broken computer hasn't helped.

Things have progressed at quite a rate and we are now only about 2 weeks away from the first wheels to be cast which will be the 8's....the order books will be opening soon.

Anyway here are the latest updates

PAG 1580 bottom core

Die side blocks

Don't seem to be able to post any pics at the moment so that's it till tomorrow.

Die being assembled

Die being assembled 1

Die being pre heated

Top core

It's getting hot in here

Ready to go 1

Now that looks HOT!

1st wheel off the production line

8 x 15 with £1 coin for reference

8 x 15 with £1 coin for reference 1

8 x 15 side

8 x 15 dish

8 x 15 dish whole with £1 coin

A few 8 x 15

Lot's of 8 x 15

Wheels are now going for heat treatment then will be back for machining and powder coating to customers requirements (all of which I'll post up).

7's and 9's will follow in the next couple of weeks.

There will be an initial run of just 60 units of each width, 7, 8 & 9 x 15, so if anyone is interested go to www.group4wheels.com , have a look around and go to ordering. This way I can get back to you with an all inclusive price including shipping.

Any other queries: info@group4wheels.com


Regards

Jonathan

Just FWIW, I pulled up detail photos of the wheels on the Ghia Sport 5000 (which was built from the original Shelby/De Tomaso 70P, and whose chassis and suspension were used for the Mangusta). The wheels it wears measure 8 1/2 x 15 front and 11 x 15 rear...I was surprised as I always thought they were 8 x 15 and 10 x 15, but the markings are quite clearly stamped. I never realized that any Campagnolo wheels were cast in half-inch increments either.

That is weird. Odd sizing to be sure. The rear wheels on the spyder were marked 10x15 so they may have been, as Steve Wilkinson suggested, one of a set of 4 pairs made. The fronts are 7x15.

225-70 radial tires on a 10" wheel? Can you say "stretched casing?" There's usually only about 8-1/2" of actual tread on that size tire....

Yeah, they aren't going to win the "Contact Patch of the Year" award but they are (IIRC) the widest size you could get in XWXs. At least it's a period-correct tire not a BFG or Cooper or something.

Fantastic work!!!

I just wanted to note, that on my car, I have one later rim, replaced due to an accident, that appears to have been cast in a metal mold vs a wooden version. It still had the DeT part number on it in grease pencil when we took the tire off! Production rims did not...

The corners are very crisp on the spokes where the production rims are very much rounded off! There is also a CAMPAGNOLO logo in positive relief on one spoke as well as a part number I believe.

Some of you guys with later cars may want to check this out more closely!

I'll try and remember to get a picture of this later. Am doing the engine-dectomy thing again....ugh!

Steve

Years ago, Gary Hall told me that Campagnolo's tooling would wear out over the course of a production run. When they went to do another run, they would first re-finish the tooling. According to Gary, sometimes they would get carried away and make the tooling too "sharp"; the result being, two wheels made by the same tooling could look significantly different, depending upon when they were cast. We were discussing Pantera wheels but I'm sure the same holds true for Mangusta wheels.

After a few delays the full set of 7, 8 and 9 x 15" PAG series are now cast and ready for machining and painting to customers requirements.

7, 8 & 9 x 15"

Will your wheels except the DeTomaso center crest?

quote:

Originally posted by Italian STALLION:
Will your wheels except the DeTomaso center crest?

Yes they will.

Regards


Jonathan

Would you mind posting some photos of your wheels with the emblem installed. Do this after all your drilling is done so that we see the wheel 100% finalized.

Thank you

Hi All,

I seem to have lost the measurements for the back space on the front and rear wheels. Can someone supply this info?


Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

At long last we should soon have some finished wheels! Couple of pics with some 9" that are half machined.


Regards

Jonathan

1 more

When will the finished wheel be on the market?

quote:

Originally posted by Italian STALLION:
When will the finished wheel be on the market?

Hi Italian STALLION,

The above picture is how all wheels are "finished" prior to orders being taken. We then drill the PCD, machine the ET and paint the wheels to the customers requirements.

FIRST MANGUSTA CUSTOMER TO ORDER A SET GETS FREE DELIVERY!


Regards

Jonathan

Hi,
You have said in the past that the orginal center caps will fit, is that correct? The orginal center caps are held in with a thin wire retainer, will yours be the same? What size in widths are you going to offer? The final question, what will be the price for a set of 4 with your free freight offer?

quote:

Originally posted by Italian STALLION:
Hi,
You have said in the past that the orginal center caps will fit, is that correct? The orginal center caps are held in with a thin wire retainer, will yours be the same? What size in widths are you going to offer? The final question, what will be the price for a set of 4 with your free freight offer?

Hi Italian STALLION,

Can you forward some pictures of the wheel with the badge out (close up) and one of the badge?

Sizes available are 7, 8 & 9" x 15.

2 x 8's & 2 x 9's in silver would be £1050.


Regards

Jonathan

I have the wheels out getting painted now, so I will have to wait until they are done. What is the cost in American dollars for the set?

quote:

Originally posted by Italian STALLION:
I have the wheels out getting painted now, so I will have to wait until they are done. What is the cost in American dollars for the set?

No problem. Wheels are paid for in £ sterling, would require you going to your bank and making an international transfer (5-10 minutes).


Regards

Jonathan

In reality, what does a set cost me in US Dollars?

quote:

Originally posted by Italian STALLION:
In reality, what does a set cost me in US Dollars?

Give or take...$1575


Regards

Jonathan

Hello,

Any news on the Pantera Group 4 wheels?

I am very keen to place an order.

James

Jonathan,
What is your mailing address?
I will mail you a center cap for the Mangusta wheels.

PM sent with my address.

Thanks

Jonathan

I mailed it today.

Badge received, thanks! What is the total width and back space of front and rear wheels?


Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

Design has now been finalised for the 10" version...enjoy!

Shown in 5 stud but 4 stud also available.


Regards

Jonathan

more

Fantastic! This is what we have been waiting for. How much are they Jonathan?

Johnny

Hi Johnny,

7" - £235
8" - £250
9" - £275
10" - £300

Prices are each and various colours are available.

7, 8 & 9" are in stock,10" should be ready in 6 - 8 weeks.


Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

10's will be with us soon (ish). Attached is a CAD drawing of 7, 8 , 9 & 10's, albeit in Porsche bolt pattern. Come on...who's going to be the first?


Regards

Jonathan

Jonathan,

I would like to place an order for a pair of 10" rears on behalf of a customer. I will get back to you with back spacing. I also have another customer who is very interested so I may need 4.

Regards, Johnny Woods

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Woods:
Jonathan,

I would like to place an order for a pair of 10" rears on behalf of a customer. I will get back to you with back spacing. I also have another customer who is very interested so I may need 4.

Regards, Johnny Woods

Hi Johnny,

Let me know...as you can see, the 10" is on the way.


Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

Early stages of 10 x 15 PAG Bottom die (face) on the CNC machine.


Regards

Jonathan

Part 2

Jonathan:

Any chance you guys can take the 10" wheel and make a 13" wide wheels for us Group IV widebody cars? What would that take?

So 10's for the front and a 13" back wheel. 15" diameter of course.

thanks

Lee

quote:

Originally posted by Panterapatt:
Jonathan:

Any chance you guys can take the 10" wheel and make a 13" wide wheels for us Group IV widebody cars? What would that take?

So 10's for the front and a 13" back wheel. 15" diameter of course.

thanks

Lee

Hi Lee,

Possible but it would mean a minimum run of 60 wheels...so a not insignificant investment!


Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

Bottom core after running all night.


Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

Bottom core finished waiting to be hand finished.


Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

10" PAG bottom core back from engraving. Casting to take place Friday 18th May.


Regards

Jonathan

I recently met Jonathan Sage (owner of Group4wheels) at Brooklands Auto Italia event. Here's a picture of us together, me holding the wheel.
Jonathan is a great guy and very enthusiastic. I was able to have a good look at his wheels and I have to say they are extremely high quality!

Jonathan is going into production with the 10" rear. This will fill out that rear arch and look fantastic - just like the 1966 prototype!

He also wants to produce a new wheel for the front to go with the 10" rear. This makes sense for anyone running the rough sand cast magnesium wheels because the new rears will be perfect castings so they will not match the rough original front wheels. If you have the later die cast aluminium wheels, these are already perfect so you would only really need the rears.

Jonathan has asked me if there is any reason why he cant produce an 8" wide front wheel? As you know the original front is 7" wide. I spent some time today looking at the front of a Mangusta with the original 7" front wheels - 215/60 tyres. I wound it onto full lock in both directions and can't see and reason why he cant add another 1" on the inside. 215/60 is a little short on the front, maybe with an 8" wheel 225/60 would be better. I noticed the calliper will be slightly inside the wheel (like it should have been originally). Jonathan assures me his wheels have a lot more room inside them than the originals do, so the calliper will not be too close to the inside of the rim. Stones can get stuck between the calliper and the wheel and score the rim. I have experienced this on a GT5 Pantera with it's original wheels and 6 piston Willwoods that had very little clearance inside the wheel.

Adding another 1" to the inside of the front wheel would improve the scrub radius and make a small improvement in the steering. It's not possible to put it on the outside because the original front wheel already has way too much negative offset. The backspacing on the original wheel is 59.5mm, it should be a lot more. This is one of the reasons the Goose doesn't have very good steering, the low geared rack masks this somewhat. Another 1" on the inside would improve the backspacing to 84.5mm.

From what I can see any tyre rubbing issues on the front of a Goose are caused by tyres that are too tall so adding 1" on the inside can only improve things, right? What do you guys think?

Johnny

Hi All,

After meeting Johnny Woods at Auto Italia @ Brooklands recently, we have been in talks and will be able to offer a wheel combination of 8s and 10s. The reason for the 10s is fairly obvious as they'll fill out the arches a lot better...the 8's and their positioning I'll leave for Johnny to explain...


Regards

Jonathan

You're a mind reader Johnny!

Johnny & Jonathan,

Glad you two have finally met. I am hoping that this new connection will enable Group4 to get the proper wheel specs and, more critically, fit a set of these wheels to a Mangusta and post photos.

I am ready to order a set, but don't want the responsibility of determining offsets etc. and really want to see a set of 8s and 10s on a Mangusta before ordering. To me, the dish in the hub would need to go (a fairly simple machine operation that Jonathan has confirmed can be done so it looks a tad more authentic) and seeing the wheels fit the body AND clear all the important bits of suspension etc. are the only hold-backs. I don't expect any issues, but I don't want to be shipping wheels back over the ocean because of fitment issues. I'm confident I'm not alone on this.

So, Johnny, please hook Jonathan up with Jonathan Root (really, is EVERYONE third person in the UK named Jon****? ) or Roger B so he can do a test fit. It would be very much appreciated by all and I'm certain very worthwhile to Group4 Wheels.

Mark

Wow, I'd like to put a set on my 'Merican muscle car too! They look a LOT like the mini-lites in terms of the spoke pattern, NOT the detail of the spoke.... even has 5 lug nut holes in it already! 5x4.5"? If I toss out all my wife's crap in her suitcase when we hit Europe in a few months, perhaps I can get a set smuggled home....


Johnny, Great explanation of the steering geometry stuff. I was sleeping through that class in high school.....oh, that's right, I never had that class! Seriously...great job explaining something that is basically black magic for most of the masses!
Ciao!
Steve

Hi All,

Gonna get the 3 J's together ASAP and trial fit a set of wheels. I'm in talks with the design team to see what we can do with the bowl and I think we can come up with something that will make everyone happy. As this will involve extra machine work, I would say the price may increase slightly, I'll let you know.

What I do need to know is, with a modified centre, how many of you would want a set? I'll need to get all wheels machined at the same time as it'll be very difficult to get sets machined in small numbers in the future.


Regards

Jonathan