NEW Mangusta Wheel by Group 4 Wheels

Hi All,

10" PAG fresh from casting.


Regards

Jonathan

And lots more...

Looks Great Jonathan. You should be able to fill "a few" orders with that lot.

Get machining!

Mark

Hi All,

What can I say...


Regards

Jonathan

1 more

NICE! Now I need a 'goose' to put them on!

We also need to source appropriate tyres to fit. It would be fantastic to have wheels and matching brand tyres appropriately speed rated to suit our wheels.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
NICE! Now I need a 'goose' to put them on!

Me too!

Hi All,

It's been a long time...

Wheels are now supplied with NO LOGO.


Regards

Jonathan

8s front & 10s rear

last one...

Those look really great.

Do they fit Panteras?

Rocky

Proper rear tires for 10" wide 15" wheels may be on the way.... depending on where you live and how rich you are.

Good news: Avon Tyres in England are supposedly releasing a brand new 295-50x 15" road-legal tire in V-speed rating (150 mph), perfect for Mangustas & Panteras w/10" wheels. This tire is exempt from Euro-union labeling since it's intended for cars that were first registered prior to 1990, which includes nearly all DeTomasos.

Bad news: the tires aren't quite released yet, the projected price will be about 315 Euros (about $406 ea.) plus taxes & shipping, and even Avon's website has no info on them yet. Obviously, no dimensional, handling or wear data is available, either. Jonathon, you may be in a better position than most to chase down this very strong rumor in your backyard.

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
Those look really great.

Do they fit Panteras?

Rocky

If you convert your Pantera to four lug maybe..


Ron

quote:

Originally posted by r mccall:

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
Those look really great.

Do they fit Panteras?

Rocky

If you convert your Pantera to four lug maybe..


Ron

Available in 5 stud.


Regards

Jonathan

Jonathan at Group4 Wheels casts the wheels and post-finishes (machining off-sets, drilling stud-holes) afterwards as required. He is promoting these wheels for use on several different cars and with several bolt patterns and off-sets. I can't speak for him, but I suspect it can be done if the off-sets you need are within what the casting range allows.

Mark

These may be a little better to see what we've done to the bowl.

There is now NO GROUP 4 WHEELS LOGO.


Regards

Jonathan

And the 10"

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Proper rear tires for 10" wide 15" wheels may be on the way.... depending on where you live and how rich you are.

Good news: Avon Tyres in England are supposedly releasing a brand new 295-50x 15" road-legal tire in V-speed rating (150 mph), perfect for Mangustas & Panteras w/10" wheels. This tire is exempt from Euro-union labeling since it's intended for cars that were first registered prior to 1990, which includes nearly all DeTomasos.

Bad news: the tires aren't quite released yet, the projected price will be about 315 Euros (about $406 ea.) plus taxes & shipping, and even Avon's website has no info on them yet. Obviously, no dimensional, handling or wear data is available, either. Jonathon, you may be in a better position than most to chase down this very strong rumor in your backyard.

Both 275/55 & 295/50 Avons available as well as 215/60, 225/60 & 225/65. All in stock.


Regards

Jonathan

Jonathan,

These are looking VERY nice. Can the "bowl" be machined deeper? It seems very odd to have the lug nuts embedded so deep. Is it possible to fit a socket in there? They look quite "snug".

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
Jonathan,

These are looking VERY nice. Can the "bowl" be machined deeper? It seems very odd to have the lug nuts embedded so deep. Is it possible to fit a socket in there? They look quite "snug".

Mark

Hi Mark,

Will look into it.



Regards

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
Jonathan,

These are looking VERY nice. Can the "bowl" be machined deeper? It seems very odd to have the lug nuts embedded so deep. Is it possible to fit a socket in there? They look quite "snug".

Mark

Hi Mark,

Will look into it.



Regards

Jonathan

Hi Mark,

Bowls cannot be machined any deeper, there are 2 choices for the lug nuts to be exposed:

1. Wheel nut/stud pockets are machined shallower and longer studs are used with original nuts.
2. Pockets are left as is and longer nuts are used.


Regards

Jonathan

Hi All,

Assuming we can get the numbers, Compomotive are willing to modify a run of PAGs like the ones in the photos. Price is £300 for 8" and £340 for the 10". All prices are plus VAT. New centre badges can be supplied at additional cost.


Regards

Jonathan

PLEASE COPY AND PASTE & ADD YOUR NAME TO THE LIST.

1.

I have though of a way to fix the recessed wheel nut issue. If we use a short open nut like this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/16x-...&hash=item416ba7337e
we could use these to hold the wheels on and then put the original De Tomaso nuts on top because there would be enough stud sticking through the short nut.
This would make the wheels look much more like the originals.
I have not checked to see if the 60 degree taper is correct?

Johnny

Jonathan,

I would like to place an order on behalf of my customer for a pair of 10" rears.

Regards, Johnny

Are these 100% accurate reproductions? No. Will they look amazing on my Mangusta? I think so. I will be mounting my "show-only" Michelin XWX 225/70-15 rear and 185/70-15 front tires to my stock 8" and 7" wheels and will be mounting my new 275/60-15 rears and 215/60-15 fronts to these new 10" and 8" wheels.

I'm looking forward to seeing how they fit, but from what I've seen on another Goose, it should be nice.

I just received a set of these this week for the Goose sat in my workshop and can confirm they are absolutely beautiful!

I will post pics on the car in a few weeks.

Johnny

My wheels arrived a few days ago and I must say that I think they look great. Next step is to fit the tires and see how they look on the car. I think Group4 did a very nice job on these at a quite reasonable cost. Thanks Jonathan.

and closer in view.

Yes, they look outstanding!

Hi All,

I have just 3 sets left. All come with centre badges. Sets are £1312 plus vat plus shipping.


Regards

Jonathan

I had my new BFG tires installed on my new Group4 reproduction wheels and decided to fit one set to the left side car and do some comparison photos. The rears are 10" (up from 8) with 275/60-15 tires and the fronts are 8" (up from 7) with 215/60-15 tires.

First a view from the rear:



It's very easy to see that almost all of the extra 2" in width falls where it needs to be — on the outside. The left side looks "correct" (IMHO) and the right side (factory wheel) is set so far in from the fender that it almost looks almost silly to me.

Here's a more direct comparison. The new wheel is on the right in this image pair shot from the front looking back (both sides compared).



This is the view standing behind and looking down. The tire does overhang the fender slightly, but aligns nicely in the same way the Campy 10" does on a Pantera.



Here is the face-on view of the Group 4 10" wide wheel:



And a comparison of the front wheels. The extra width of these seems evenly split inside and outside. They may rub inner fenders slightly, but I haven't checked that yet.



Front wheel:


Another angled view:



And inside the garage:



Overall I think these wheels are a great option. Especially if you want a spare set, or don't have any original-style wheels. There are some obvious differences in the details of the design and so they are not really true reproductions as a result. They are, however, very nicely made period-looking wheels available in sizes few Mangusta owners are able to enjoy — and at a cost that few Mangusta owners can feel is unfair. The only problems I encountered were:

• the original Mangusta lug nuts can't be used. While they DO fit, the diameter of the bore in the wheel is too small to allow a 22mm socket to fit and so they can't be tightened. I was fortunate to have a spare set of longer and smaller O.D. (at 19mm) Pantera lug nuts on-hand and so I was able to install the wheels.

• the rings supplied to retain the included (nice touch) De Tomaso logo wheel centers are slightly too thick and do not "retain" well. Again, I was fortunate to have a set of smaller diameter stainless rings from Wilkinson (or maybe Hall) and they fit like a charm.

Jonathan, thank you again for the initiative in producing these wheels. I am extremely pleased with the quality, finish, value and service (very quick shipping!) and I hope that these images help any other owners who were on the fence about ordering a set.

Mark

They look more correct then the originals do.

I'm tempted to say that I'd want more negative offset in the front, less in the rear, so I could put bigger rubber on in both locations but with a 'goose that only looks easy to do.

Can't do better then a side by side comparison test for sure.

Thanks for posting the pictures.

I'd be interested in hearing how the handling is affected. The 'goose having that early magazine road test where the rear kept coming around on the test driver.

I'm wondering if the car needs to be rebalanced again with the anti-sway bars and shocks?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
They look more correct then the originals do.

I'm tempted to say that I'd want more negative offset in the front, less in the rear, so I could put bigger rubber on in both locations but with a 'goose that only looks easy to do.

I completely agree. About half an inch less on the rear and about 1/2 an inch more on the fronts would be about perfect. The fronts might be possible. Time will tell. Of course, tire availability is one of the big problems and its only getting worse.

quote:

Can't do better then a side by side comparison test for sure.

Thanks for posting the pictures.

Thanks, my pleasure.

quote:

I'd be interested in hearing how the handling is affected. The 'goose having that early magazine road test where the rear kept coming around on the test driver.

I'm wondering if the car needs to be rebalanced again with the anti-sway bars and shocks?

Me too. Unfortunately, my car is a "Pushmobile" at the moment so any handling comparison tests will need to be carried out by others. I do know that many of the early handling woes can be traced to crappy, narrow bias ply tires. While there have been one or two spectacular incidents on modern tires, they are (thankfully) quite the rarity now. The Goose handles pretty well but, like a Pantera (and most other mid-engined rear weight-biased cars), it will bite if pushed beyond its limits. Those limits are reasonably high I'm told by other owners, but they are lower than a comparable Pantera.

Mark

Pushmobile explains why it is sitting high now?

I was thinking it might be safe to use solid billet aluminum wheel spacers in the front, attached to the front hub, then lengthen the studs.

What would concern me with that is again modifying the front track vs. the rear and having to play with that bias again.

The 427 Cobras had a bad reputation in the beginning because of "snap steer". They too are a 40/60 weight bias.

The difference is they are a front, mid-engine car.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Pushmobile explains why it is sitting high now?

I was thinking it might be safe to use solid billet aluminum wheel spacers in the front, attached to the front hub, then lengthen the studs.

What would concern me with that is again modifying the front track vs. the rear and having to play with that bias again.

The 427 Cobras had a bad reputation in the beginning because of "snap steer". They too are a 40/60 weight bias.

The difference is they are a front, mid-engine car.

The suspension has settled because it remained loaded when I installed wheels (my lift set-up doesn't raise the body but rather lifts from the suspension. I'm not sure why it sits high, but I will eventually resolve that. I will likely do the spacers at the front once I've set everything height-wise. It'll be a while before I'm there however.

Mark

Mark, Thanks for taking the time to shoot these pictures. I think the wheels look great. I will post some more pictures when I get JB's car out. I intend to use short, open 16mm high nuts (I have bought these)http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280978994046?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
with a 19mm head size to hold the wheel on and then put the original nuts over the top because quite a lot of thread will be sticking out of the nut, enough for the original nut to screw down on top of the open nut so that it sits closer to the original position instead of being sunk in the wheel. I think the nut will stick out enough to get the 22mm socket on (of course the outer nut will not need to be very tight because it will only be for show.
I have in the past ground sockets thinner to get around this problem.

The rear wheels have all of the 2" on the outside. The front wheels have the additional 1" on the inside where it needs it. Due to the excessive positive scrub radius on the front of the Goose (I measured it at 6") any additional width has to go on the inside to improve the steering slightly and make it grab and pull a little less under braking.
What the front really needs to make it steer properly is 3" added to the inside and removed from the outside! This is not possible of course and this would require completely new suspension too so it's all a compromise.

I think the best way to balance up the look would be to run the 225/50 front tyre instead of the 215/50 you have at the moment. It's only 10mm taller. I think the 215 is perfect for the 7" rim.

I have spent a long time studying the suspension on the Goose and have come to the conclusion the only way to really improve the front would be to completely redesign it and radically change the offset of the wheel. So it's not worth doing. All part of the character of the car is the excessive negative scrub radius of the wheels much like a GT5 Pantera, to change this would look ridiculous.

Doug, the reason the Goose has a bad reputation for snap oversteer is because the rear suspension bumps into toe out. The rear tubular chassis structure also flexes making things worse. This end of the car can be fixed!

Johnny

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Woods:


Doug, the reason the Goose has a bad reputation for snap oversteer is because the rear suspension bumps into toe out. The rear tubular chassis structure also flexes making things worse. This end of the car can be fixed!

Johnny

Usually what I see with rear biased cars (40/60) is that you need to do everything possible to keep the rear from steering.

Usually it is as simple as setting the rear tires to about a 1/4" total toe in BUT if in the travel of the rear suspension the tires go from toe in to toe out, bumpsteer in the rear as it were, you have a very serious handling issue.

You could fix the goose in the rear by stiffening the rear springs to reduce travel or worst came to worst, installing strut rods like the front has.

I think the car just suffered from lack of factory developement. I think it can be made at least stable.

I stuck to my skinny fender Pantera. The steering chatter on the GT5's concerns me. I'm afraid to drive that car hard.

A Gp4, well that's another matter all together?

I still love the 'goose, in spite of it's imperfections. I personally have never come across another car with as much character as the Mangusta.

225-50-15 P7's is what I have on the front (of my Pantera) on a 8" Campi. Makes the car feel like a go cart.

I would think it would be a great tire for the front of the 'goose too.

I had meant to show a comparison between the De Tomaso 10" wide wheel fitted to the Mangusta Spyder and the new Group4 made wheels. Not the same photo angle exactly, but a fair comparison.

Hi All,

I now have just 3 sets of 8s & 10s left. May sound like sales talk but I'm not sure at present weather this special bowl design will be able to be repeated.

Regards

Jonathan