NEW Mangusta Wheel by Group 4 Wheels

Thanks Mark...

Showing the 2 wheels like that really shows how similar our wheels are. Grab 'em while you can!

Regards

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
Thanks Mark...

Showing the 2 wheels like that really shows how similar our wheels are. Grab 'em while you can!

Regards

Jonathan

Point well made.

I have finally got around to mounting the new group 4 wheels on John Braithwaites beautiful Mangusta. The tyres are BFG 275/60 rear and 225/60 front. The wheels are 10" rear and 8" front. After looking at Marks comparison pictures I feel the 215/60 front tyre looks slightly too narrow on these 8" wheels.

I am very happy with the visual balance of the car and like the fact that the front wheels dont fill the arches as this keeps it looking old rather than an old car trying to look new. The rear wheel arch is now filled to perfection just as Giugiaro intended on the prototype. No more unsightly gap. Shame we had to wait 47 years!

Johnny

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Warning to anyone installing the new 8" wide group 4 front wheels!
Due to the fact that the extra 1" is added to the inside it is possible for stick on wheel weights (when centre balanced) to make contact the brake pipe. This will only happen if there are stick on weights on the inside edge of the wheel. This was the case for me so I repositioned the brake pipe out of the way so there is now lots of clearance. The pipe I am referring to is the one that joins the two half's of the calliper. This was an easy job on this car because the original steel pipes had already been replaced with copper so I has able to reposition it without having to remove it. Had it been steel I would probably remove the pipe and reshaped it on the bench or make a new one. Even if you dont have wheel weights on the inside edge I suggest you reposition the pipe anyway to make sure this can never happen.

Adding the extra 1" to the inside of the front wheel has improved the scrub radius by 1/2". This is a good thing and will help to reduce the grabbing and pulling on the steering under braking on bumpy roads. Much of this scrub radius problem is masked by the low geared steering. If the extra 1" had been added to the outside of the wheel it would steer like a 27 T bucket with a Hemi!

You can go either up or down with the pipe. I went down as it saved me having to remake it.

As mentioned by Mark, one of the differences between these wheels and the original wheels is the lug bores are much deeper on the group 4 wheels. This means the original nuts are completely out of sight down inside the bore. Also, the bore in not quite big enough for a 22mm socket so you would have to grind one down to get it to fit. I came up with another solution however, I bought some M12x1.5 - 60 degree taper open nuts that are only 16mm tall. These have a 19mm head size so no need to grind a socket. These nuts will hold the wheels on and the original nuts can go right over the top as there is plenty of thread sticking out of the top of the open nut. I did no torque the De Tomaso nuts though as they are now only for show, just tight enough to stop them coming off. Now the nuts stick out of the bore just right and look perfect. The rechromed nuts in the picture are not the original brass De Tomaso nuts. Mr Braithwaite changed these years ago because his original wheels are the later forged type not sand cast and are slightly thinner centre that means the stud goes too far into the nut and pops the De Tomaso logo off the end of the nut. This cant be reattached without soldering and rechroming! This would not have been a problem now of course as they are only held on by approx 8mm of thread.


Johnny

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Everything looks great. Beautiful car, Great wheels. Tires look right.

Now I need to deal with my Mangusta lust.

Thanks for posting.

Thanks Doug.

I wish I had a Mangusta too. I get to play with them every day so it's not too so bad!
I spent a long time aligning this car and getting the rear wheels to sit just right in the arches. It's got adjustable spring seats so I was able to get the ride height right. The front could come down another 1/2". It's got a strong sump guard that extends past the bell housing. Essential on any Goose unless you jack it up like a 4x4.

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Woods:
Thanks Doug.

I wish I had a Mangusta too. I get to play with them every day so it's not too so bad!
I spent a long time aligning this car and getting the rear wheels to sit just right in the arches. It's got adjustable spring seats so I was able to get the ride height right. The front could come down another 1/2". It's got a strong sump guard that extends past the bell housing. Essential on any Goose unless you jack it up like a 4x4.

JW

As I said, I remember talk of the car being so low it would wreck the bell housing.

I suppose the ZF upside down is a center of gravity trick, centering it more?

The spacing over the tires you got here looks just right and I understand why it is difficult to get the front to look right.

There is such a difference in the projection of the front and rear of the front fender.



I hope you can get paid for all of the time you put in?



Personally I think the BFG's are fine for all of these cars.

MY SHO came stock with Goodyear GT+4 v rated tires. That's just a waste of money.

Even for track events the S rated T/A's hold up well. I think 140 is about their limit.

People don't realize the speed ratings are for SUSTANINED speeds. That just isn't going to happen.

People that need W ratings now are just the 12 year olds that had to have LED lights in their sneakers back then and are now adults?

Johnny,

BEAUTIFUL countryside view from your new shop???

I'll need to send you my car, so you can check the front wheel weight interference on a car with the "more common" two pot front calipers! John's car looks to have the 3-pot version that a few of the Panteras got....GT5-Group5????? (I have one rebuild seal kit for those brakes left. Not commonly found on US Geese!)

WHile you have the car, if you can get John's up on a lift, please take some shots of the sump guard!!! Interested in what these were fitted with......to go with another discussion elsewhere on the board!

Ciao!
Steve

Hi Steve,

Yes, that beautiful view is from my new shop. I love it!

Both JB's and JR's geese have the 3 pot front calliper. I didn't know most US geese had two pots. I dont think it's the same as a GT5 Pantera, will have to ask Mike Drew.

I will take some pics of the sump guard. It's been fabricated, not original.

Johnny

Johnny,
Check your road clearance at the bell housing in the rear.

A 225X50 front tire would be perfect.

Dick Ruzzin

Dick,Steve,

Here is a pic of the sump guard from the blue car. It extends past the bell housing. I didn't make it but I did remake the cross bar that holds the rear as the existing one was a poor design.

Johnny

Here is a wider version on Jon Roots car. It makes the mounting simpler and is very strong (you can jack the car by it) I did not make this one either.

Johnny

Very nice fitment of those wheels Johnny. I guess I need some adjustable coil-overs because I can't see how I can lower mine, and it DOES need to be lowered.

I agree that the 225 tires look better. Too bad they are not available in 225-50/15, but the slightly larger height tucked under the fender works nicely.

Are those skid plates steel or aluminum? Not terribly pretty, but much more so than a Dash-1 repair invoice!

Thanks for posting those photos. I must say the surrounding countryside to your shop looks quite peaceful. I can just imagine piloting a Goose on roads around there must be quite fun.

Mark

http://i61.photobucket.com/alb...eshow/DanaHansen.jpg

This one looks lower in the front. I like the look but does it need a full body skid plate?

I think you just need to eliminate the knotch created by the bell housing?

Isn't that what the factory just did back there?

If you look at the "trans-am" Mustang 10 quart Bud Moore oil pan, a skid plate was added to that pan.

I'd consider a special "boat type" oil pan for the Mangusta, like the Aviaid Pantera pan, with a skid plate added to the pan as an alternative to the plate shown here.

You could design in an extension that continues to the back of the bell.

I think that is all that you need?

I have 225-50-15 P7's on the front of my Pantera. The tire is 24" tall. It lowers the front of the car about and inch.

That makes the lower radiator support more vulnerable on the Pantera.

Most of the unrestored Panteras I have seen all have bottomed in the front and most show sheet metal damage there as a result.

I haven't seen any bent lower radiator supports yet though?

Hi All,

Just 1 set left. More can be made but I'll need 6 confirmed orders to go ahead.


Regards

Jonathan

Hi Mark,

Yes, you will need adjustable spring seats. I put some modern Konis on Jon Roots car.

The BFG 215/60 is not available in the UK but the 225/60 is from http://www.northhantstyres.com/ these are brand new tyres not old stock.

I agree the skid plates are not pretty but essential. The pictures above are aluminium of 6mm or so.

The roads around my barn are quite and fun to drive on!

Johnny

This is the Bud Moore T/A Mustang pan with the skid plate built into it.

You could have Aviaid do that on their Mangusta pan?

You definitely can sit the engine on these pans. I suspect they are stiff enough to jack the car up with.

Interesting item that I came across is that Aviad made two different depth pans for Shelby and the 289 engines. One for the Cobra roadster at the normal 7.5 inches depth and one at 6.5 inches for the Daytona Coupe.

The engine was set one inch lower in the Daytona Coupe necessitating a one inch shallower pan.

The shallower pan would be a very good idea for the Mangusta in my mind?

For the Magustas, you could do the long Pantera racing type sump, with the shallower depth, with the built in skid plate and have the pan made with exterior studs on the side of the pan to continue with a bolt on skid plate/bridge over the bell, bent with tabs/flanges to wrap around under the bell and bolt to the lower two bolts on the bell to eliminate the gap between the two and make one long skid?

That would look designed in to me?

So far my 'goose will have that pan set up, the new 8/10" wheels, the 2x4 Holley T/A intake.

Now I just need the car.

In the mean time I can have my legs surgically altered to fit into the cabin?

For the new guys, a Mangusta skid plate is essential! I once repaired a Mangusta bellhousing and diff case for a CA member. The story was, the bellhousing snagged a manhole cover at speed and ripped the whole bottom out of the bellhousing including clutch & flywheel, and cracked the ZF diff case so bad, you could see gears inside by leaning over the fender. Someone tried to weld the scrap together poorly- the weld beads were an inch wide but had zero penetration.
I ground all the buttery welds off and redid the parts. The heat distorted the case and bellhousing into a potato chip which then required remachining. Not fun, not cheap- the owner abandoned the parts & found the last new caes available, to put the OEM gears in. I still have the diff case for sale.

Apparently the BFG 215/60 tyre is available. Mike Drew says this:

BFG sold their Radial T/A tire molds to Coker Tire (which is sort of like Longstone in the UK, I think).

These tires are readily available in the appropriate sizes (215/60 front, 275/60 rear) for standard Mangusta wheels. They can also be had in 295/50 for the new 10-inch wheels. And still cheap as chips:


http://www.cokertire.com/bf-goodrich-t-a-radials.html

Johnny

Johnny, do you think the 295/50/s would be a better choise than the 275/60's for the 10' rims? Just wondering if the extra width at the tread would cause any issues?

Width is not the problem with the 295s. Height is.

The rolling diameter of the 275-60-15 tires is 28". The 295/50-15s are 1.3" shorter at 26.7" dia. With a Mangusta, you need as much rear tire height as you can get so the wheel well is filled nicely, and the ZF isn't dragging on the ground (or the skid-pates, if you have).

The perfect tire would be the no-longer available 305/50-15 Euro T/As.

Mark

Hi All,

After Johnny's wonderful photos, why aren't all you lot queueing up for a set?

1 set left.


Regards

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
Hi All,

After Johnny's wonderful photos, why aren't all you lot queueing up for a set?

1 set left.


Regards

Jonathan

Sorry, I couldn't find a Magusta in time.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
Hi All,

After Johnny's wonderful photos, why aren't all you lot queueing up for a set?

1 set left.


Regards

Jonathan

Sorry, I couldn't find a Magusta in time.

Keep looking, there's still a set left.

[/QUOTE]

Keep looking, there's still a set left.[/QUOTE]

I suppose a homeless one will need to show up on my doorstep?

I don't know if my wife will let me keep it though. We are filled to the brim now? They are all so needy?

There have been a couple local unkonwn that met their demise that I couldn't help. Sad.

I suppose I could become 'Father 'goose'?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

Keep looking, there's still a set left.[/QUOTE]

I suppose a homeless one will need to show up on my doorstep?

I don't know if my wife will let me keep it though. We are filled to the brim now? They are all so needy?

There have been a couple local unkonwn that met their demise that I couldn't help. Sad.

I suppose I could become 'Father 'goose'? [/QUOTE]


Do not fight your destiny, you must be strong.

quote:

Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels


Do not fight your destiny, you must be strong.

Yep. That's what I am doing. Just sitting here on this milk crate with a cup of coffee.

When people ask me what I am doing just sitting here I reply, "being strong...going along with my fate".

SOLD OUT.

Thanks

Jonathan

Hi Johnny,

currently I have a big urgent problem.

My new tires BFG 275/60/R15 and 215/60/R15
doesn't fit on the original Mangusta wheels.
The expert of the tire workshop says, that the wheels are made only for tires with tubes.
He refuses to mount the tires!

I read in the forum, that many Mangusta owner uses this tires. How did they solve this problem?

What to hell should I do?

Christian, go to another tire shop. Unless he can give you some valid reason. I cannot see any my car has no tubes and it even used to have a very eArly 7 1/2 magnsium m rim too. 8MA1244 has those BFGs. There should be no problem.

quote:

Originally posted by 8MA1248:
How did they solve this problem?

What to hell should I do?

Find another tire shop. The guy you talked to doesn't know what he is talking about.

Hi Christian,

Just spoke to Johnny Woods, no problem with the BFG tyres. All tyres supplied to Johnny have been used with BFG tyres without in inner tubes. Your fitter is wrong.


Regards

Jonathan

Your tire guy is worried about magnesium wheels being porous, so he tries to spec tubes. IMHO, if your wheels are so porous they won't hold air with tubeless tires, catastrophic wheel failure from cracking is not far behind whether there are tubes inside or not.
Magnesium castings, also known as 'compressed corrosion' can be TIG-weld-repaired if not too porous, then stress-relieved in your wife's kitchen. The magic temp is only 275F degrees for 3 hours followed by VERY slow overnight cooling.
WE wrap the hot wheels in a blanket, put them back in the hot oven, then simply turn it off until morning. Have any needed welding done BEFORE stress-relieving, as weld heat will contribute to internal stresses in the wheels. 275F will cause the protective aluminum paint on all Campys to turn tan, requiring repainting as a last step. I recommend doing this every 15-20 years on ALL magnesium wheels, which have been known to spontaneously crack while stored without tires on a shelf in your basement...

Theoretically speaking Christian's car would not have magnesium wheels as is is a late car (8MA1248)

Hi Jonathan
Nice wheels very keen if you get opportunity to produce them. Have just brought Image wheels to race on as want to save my original campos.
Mike

Hi Mike,

Wheels were produced and if you look back you'll see a car or two with them on. We made the wheel and produced a special version with a different bowl centre for the Mangusta in 8, 9 and 10 x 15". We have sold out of this version but may produce more if the demand is there.

Regards

Jonathan

Jonathan,

Any word on the Pantera Gp4 wheels?


Ron

+1 on the Pantera GP4 wheels

Julian

+ 1 on the Pantera GP4 wheels. - Jim

Hi All,

I can make the Group 4 Pantera wheel, in magnesium as well but I need an original front and rear to draw up. Who's got them to lend? Willing to offer the lender a set at a discounted price.

Regards

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
Hi All,

I can make the Group 4 Pantera wheel, in magnesium as well but I need an original front and rear to draw up. Who's got them to lend? Willing to offer the lender a set at a discounted price.

Regards

Jonathan

I thought you were working with Patrick Hals in Belgium on this?

Ron

Hi All,

Long time...

I've been asked by a few interested parties about the availability of these wheels. As PAG wheels are soon to be available again, now made in Italy, I'm looking at having some more Goose versions machined. Wheels will come with centre badge. Any interested parties, please e-mail me at info@group4wheels.com


Regards

Jonathan

Hello...anyone there?

I guess the Mangusta market is limited, maybe you hit the bulk of buyers first time around.

I visit this thread to check on the prospect of Group 4 wheels (as the username would suggest) but it sounds as though that is all being left to Patrick Hals. A bit of healthy competition never hurt in my opinion.

Julian

Changing wheels sizes and tires on the Mangusta is not an easy task.

Everyone should keep in mind that the smaller the rear tire gets >IN DIAMETER< THE LOWER THE CAR GETS TO GROUND.

Cranking the body up on the coil-overs results in a big gap over the rear tire to wheel-opening. 17, 18 and 19 inch tires are smaller than 15 inch tires.

Fifteen inch tires are larger in diameter than wide sizes for larger diameter wheels. People tend to not understand this.

I find that the 275X15X60 series on the stock 8 inch REAR rim works well. There is a larger tire that will fit, a 295 and a 305 but the tire volume starts to overcome the wheel and they will look a little strange.

The 275 will give you a good spacing around the wheel opening if you set the car to about 4 1/4 inches.

The appearance is optimal and I think that is the limit for safe driving.

The 275s are proportional for the cars period and a little spacing out for wider tread if you want to risk the rear bearings would add value to the appearance.

I think that fitting two sizes, one for show and one for driving must be compensated with rear height adjustment using the coil-overs or with small diameter tire sizes you will be very low at the bell-housing, like 3 inches to ground.

A 225X15X60 series for the front works well in appearance as well as ride and handling, the tire patch matching the front weight well compared to the rear as stated above.

DICK RUZZIN