new smog law in california

hi mikep01
unregistered
Question? why is it Kalifornian people think the whole universe revolves around them. did you find this site listed as the California pantera owners club, or is it the Pantera international site? if you had started this post with Attention california pantera owners i would say, OK well this guy acknowledges that their is THE REST of the world to consider But no you live in california and nothing else matters SUP RISE Their is people that live in the FREE STATES and OTHER COUNTRY'S with Panteras

Robert,
Don't be too hard on the boy. Legislative lunacy is contagious and not restricted to Californica. Although we may not be able to help Mike01 much with his local politicians, he is giving us a warning about the goofy ideas that may be brought up in our legislatures.
In Atlanta, we have the MTBE and low sulphur gas and emissions inspections. They just went to the 25 year old exemption instead of anything built after 1974. Some of that Californica stuff shows up in other states later.
Watch your politicians closely.

agree, the message is fine But, it's the narrow minded way of thinking that WE ARE ALL in California that i have a problem with. it all comes down to liberals and their lock up the barn after the horse is in the next county. They should have said something before they had to say something We see um here too Can't stand Kalifornia and had to move so they turn their new area into Kalifornia and make no attempt to blend, i know this post is not going to be popular but God Bless America Land of the Free (some parts) and Home of the Brave... :-

i not being narrow minded, the rest of the country or the world dosent have the strict emmission laws we have here. im just trying to spread the word, just imagine not being able to take your pantera or shelby out for a drive on a sunday morning, this law will also lower the emission levels to what most new cars emmit, no stock pantera could pass those standards on the best day. if it passes here who says it wont pass nation wide within a few years. the mtbe gas and low sulpher fuel started here in CA. and that almost if not nation wide.

Please, i have lived in and currently live in and go between two western states that treat their citizens as adults. as human beings. We have learned to keep things as they are By not allowing the Californian people that come here to CHANGE our free way of life.we have learned this by example by looking to Washington state and Oregon. Again i'm not sure if you understand me so i will say it again. you message is fine, too late as usual but fine, it's the way you post it. you don't take into consideration any one else,from any place else. just a footnote. When i am in california i feel like i'm in a foreign country and breathe a sigh of relief when we cross the state line.I don't hate California, as a state it's ok but it's the sheep like people that allow things to happen because they take action too late that concern me, Be advised that this is an International post medium and we have taken up enough of their time with day late and dollar short talk.

here the link to write to your atate senator and asy person, send them a fax telling you disagree with this. se have less than 30 days befor the vote for this.http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/yourleg.html

Mike,
I'm not sure what that guy's problem is...anyways, thanks for the info!

Thanks! mikep01 unregistered.... but MY STATE senator does NOT have .CA.GOV In the url, you just don't get it do you?

Hum, I thought mikep01 posted the subject title of the post appropriately. For those who live in CA, click and read, for those who don't live in CA, don't click and read.

As far as comments regarding Californians, that's like saying all blacks are niggers and thieves. There are in fact nice CA people and not so nice CA people, just like people of any ethnicity or from any geographic location in all of the world.

This is site to find your Senator. Senator Dean Florez is the person that interduced the bill. Hurry!!! Fax them http://www.sen.ca.gov/~newsen/senators/senators.HTP

Thanks Mark!

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We have sent out letters to our representatives. I believe that only letters from California residents to their legislators would be of benefit.
Dave and Linda

THANK YOU ! Thank You! tHANK yOU!

thank and i will pass any further info that i get, mike mikep01@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by mikep01 (edited 03-03-2003).]

Ha,ha Mark is always watching...good job, help keep us all civilized.

As I understand it, when you go to get smogged, it is not all about just clean exhaust. Things are different now than in the old days: (1) now the tests are more difficult on the dyno, (2) if you fail (or for any other reason "they" feel necessary), you need to go to the state referee (lots of fun), (3) the engine & devices must meet specs, and (4) you can't just throw more cash at your local smog buddy like before to pass you...things are high tech now.

When I took my Maserati Biturbo in for the required smog about a year ago, I had to go back to the referee about 4 times, until he liked the way the engine was set up. It didn't matter that the exhaust passed "clean" on all the tests. It was the engine set up that they frowned on (and this was a factory engine with no mods). If you have anything highly modified, you may as well keep it in the garage as a trophy if this thing passes. Or if you still have a stock 351 laying around, you may want to hang onto it for those special occasions when needed.

Also, I would think that maybe this bill has a good chance of passing, as CA govt is really hurting for money right now. I am not sure how the money trail follows with the smog tests, but a certain portion probably goes back to the state government, and they are looking for any source of revenue right now (money is the priority over everything right now). Any one know if smogs tests are revenue generating for the state?

If this does pass and become law, I'm going to apply for a "Historical Vehicle" license plate. I believe they are exempt from smog testing. Anyone in California interested in this type of plate should check out Mark McWhinney's website:
http://www.panteraclubnorcal.com/mark/historicalplates.htm

-Richard

i dont mind the board being monitored otherwise it would be out of control. we all know who needs the info and who can pass. both my cars are blck plate cars. old muscle cars withe the black plate are worth more than those with out, with the historical plate you cant have that custom personal plate that a lot of us have.
a little info on the ca smog program, if you fail as a gross poluter or missing equipment, you have to go to the referee atomaticaly to get the cert, ther is no cost limit to repair a gross poluter or missing smog equipmet (ie: original intakes, carburators, distributors, exhaust manifolds and the likes). everything will then need an eo number to pass just like a 5.0 mustang. the worst part is you will be inspected again for the next two years and sent strait to the referee.

I moved from CA years ago. I shake my head when I visit. No water, electricity, PGE scandals, no governors candidates worth a crap. Representatives in Washington who feel above the Law (Condit). My mother in law lives there in the Bay area too. I just cant go back. Great weather though. There is a problem with the gov't there. Any cokebottle glassed liberal geek can get a special interest bill passed. If I still lived there I would send a letter to a state rep but I cant. Hey, how about a "Save the Panteras from extinction" bill. Might as well convert your P car to solar power now.

Anyone have a good sample letter they could post? One of my jobs years ago was to mobilize businesses, organizations and the community to lobby for or against selected state bills. A key element is of course a good letter writing campaign with reasons why a bill is good or bad, but not to submit cookie cutter letters. However, a good sample letter is always beneficial as a start, and then others could personalize/modify. If PI feels strongly about the issue, maybe post a sample of the letter that was sent on the PI website, or post it here so others in CA can tweak it and send it in. I really can't think what is bad about this bill for the community or the state of CA, except that my car will remain in the garage as a trophy...and no state legislature cares about that.

David of Clarksville,TN you are a True American it's about choice, it's about Freedom and you know that..

RoBeRt, although you are in Boise, I think we need Mr. T to step in and take care of this bill. Although CA may not be the best place to live due to several reasons, including numerous pieces of legislation that kills our �freedom�, us fellow Pantera owners could sure use his help. My father always said before he passed away, that Americans only have the �appearance� of freedom, whereas in other countries at least you know you don�t have freedom.

Also, still waiting for a sample letter if anyone has one to counter this bill.

Here is a sample letter for an enthusiast to sumbit. Simply change any portion you see fit. Make it stronger or water it down as you wish. Thanks for your help! Paige, Linda and Dave

Your Legislator

Re: SB 708

Dear

As one of your constituents, I urge you in the strongest terms to oppose the above captioned Senate Bill. This piece of legislation threatens to jeopardize an important automotive hobby. I am not alone in my concern. As you most probably know, there are many other citizens whose passion for older and antique automobiles as targeted by this bill, make up an important part of their lives and livelihoods.

Should this bill pass, I could easily envision not only the loss of this automobile hobby but also the loss of a great part of California history. Most of my friends who own cars that would be threatened, have already made it clear they would simply move to another state rather than lose their cars. The reason why the affected cars would be lost is that it is cost-prohibitive or nearly impossible to bring them into compliance with emissions laws or by doing it would destroy the performance of the vehicles. For a citizen of California who already feels over-burdened with taxes and our own unique problems, this could be the last straw!

From my own experience, my collector car which is less than 45 years old (1972) is seldom used other than for occasional Sunday drives, parades or club events. Indeed, I have placed less than 1,000 miles on the car in this past year. Although we all are interested in having cleaner air in our State, there must be a careful balancing of this concern with the hardship it may place on a minimally intrusive use by a collector of their prized automobile.

Should the goal of this legislation be more focused upon generating revenue, please consider as an alternative simply placing an additional tax or license fee on the subject cars that is reasonable. To enforce any legislation as constituted would only add another layer of bureaucracy and expense that may be difficult to enforce in the first place. In addition, making it a misdemeanor to fail to pass would make criminals out of citizens who may not have the means or wealth to bring their cars into compliance. Don�t we have enough criminal cases already? In addition, what will become of the offending automobiles? Will they be placed in State owned car crushers or deposited in the desert to decay like old airplanes?

Finally, an entire and important industry exists in this State that would be imperiled should this legislation pass. The many manufacturers, distributors and vendors involved with the targeted automotive industry could discover their entire California market has literally vanished! Consider the economic impact that were to have, upon what I understand is a multi-billion dollar industry. An unfortunate and predictable fall-out would be that California would tarnish its image as a leader in industry and recreation and would instead become quickly known as a more repressive, Draconian, anti-auto enthusiast State. I don�t want to see that. It isn�t necessary.

On behalf of myself and many other automotive enthusiasts in this State, I respectfully request that you employ your influence to reject the pending legislation. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you should have any questions or comments.

Very truly yours,

Very very well written Dave! I am going to tweak your letter to personalize it to them, and also add that if this is passed, I will take my 72 and 73 off the road (as many others may choose to do), and CA will then lose revenue generating registration fees from potentially thousands of people. Government! I am ashamed to say I work for them.

Below is my tweak to the letter above, sent to my CA representative and LA Times letter section. Now that the state is in such bad financial shape, the legislative bodies are looking for anything that makes them look good. Remember, they rarely ever really care about an issue, they only care about giving the "appearance" that they are doing good. In the case with SB 708, they are only attempting to give the appearance they are doing some good.

Sample sent:

As one of your constituents, I urge you to oppose SB 708. This piece of legislation threatens to harm an important hobby among thousands of residents. As you probably know, there are many California residents whose passion for older antique automobiles is threatened by this bill. Antique automobiles make up an important part of their lives and livelihoods.

Most of my friends own antique cars that would be threatened by this bill, and have already made it clear they would simply take their cars off the road, and claim them as no operational to the DMV if this becomes law. It is important to note that once this occurs, the state will experience a great reduction in revenue from the loss of vehicle registration fees. It is a shame that the state is even considering this bill with over a 30 billion dollar budget deficit currently at hand.

It is well known that collector cars are seldom driven by their owners, some much less than 500 miles per year. They are used for occasional pleasure drives, parades or club events. Although we all are interested in having cleaner air in our state, this must be balanced with the unnecessary hardship it will place on owners of collector cars, coupled with the decreased revenue the state will receive as a result when these beautiful cars are taken off the road by owners and placed in garages like trophies. It is just not worth it, nor does it make sense to impose this law on older collector cars that are seldom on the road anyway. The current smog law on the books is already sufficient, as it exempts cars 30 or more years old. It serves no purpose to change the law to exempt cars that are 45 years or more old.

I respectfully request that you reject the pending legislation. This bill will not assist in cleaning the air. It will only assist to elevate the budget deficit, and create disgruntled collector car owners who are passionate about their cars and their hobby.

Well Well Well... I've been emailing and faxing just about every senator in Calif.. I got a signed reply from Senator Torlakson. He states he has received several letters from car owners. And that my comments will be taken into consideration when he votes on this. If you haven't sent him one, do so, at least he's one thats reading them. Keep up the pressure.

I just received this reply from Senator Florez.

Thank you for contacting my office and sharing your thoughts on SB708. In
January of this year, I was appointed Chairman of the Senate Select
Committee on Air Quality in the Central Valley. To date, the committee has
conducted four hearings and nine more are scheduled to be held this year.
After all the hearings, a report to the legislature will be submitted
detailing the committee's findings from the hearings.

Why have I undertaken this initiative to clean up our air? Air pollutants
in the San Joaquin Valley have gone up 17 percent in the last three years
alone. According to the Los Angeles Times, air pollution is to blame for
more deaths in the San Joaquin Valley in the last three years than car
accidents and murders combined. The San Joaquin Valley has surpassed Los
Angeles as the worst air basin in the state and the second worst in the
country. The asthma rate for children in Fresno County is the highest in
California - twice that of Los Angeles and triple the national average.
Without swift and decisive intervention, this problem promises to escalate
into a public health crisis, if it isn't already.

In response to this, I have introduced ten bills targeted at cleaning the
air in the San Joaquin Valley. SB708 is one of those bills. Unfortunately,
what much of the public does not understand is that SB708 is a work in
progress, and amendments have been written since the original version was
first circulated. Our bill has two important objectives. First and
foremost, I want to get the worst gross polluters off the road, to mitigate
ozone emissions into the air. Second, I am working hard to preserve and
protect the rights of car owners who keep well-maintained older vehicles,
many of them classic cars, as enacted in SB 42.

SB708, with our most recent amendments, will require vehicles over 30 years
old which are driven 12,000 or more miles a year to get a smog check. Cars
which are not used as a primary vehicle, driven on a dailty basis, should
not fall under this definition. The collector car industry representatives
we have worked with so far agree that this is a fair compromise which
protects collectors and hobbyists, while cutting down on auto emissions.

My staff and I have worked diligently on this issue. We have conducted more
than 30 hours of meetings on the subject, returned hundreds of phone calls
and collaborated with prominent people within the classic car industry -
even Jay Leno himself. Steve Davis, one of the leaders of the initiative
that became SB42, has worked closely with our office to craft SB708 in a way
that protects the classic car hobbyist and targets only gross polluters. We
are confident that the amended SB708 will prevent gross polluters from
taking advantage of SB42 and undermining the purpose of the 30-year rolling
exemption.

I thank you for your input and your willingness to participate in our
effotrs to clean the San Joaquin Valley air basin.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Terry M:
[B]I just received this reply from Senator Florez.

Why have I undertaken this initiative to clean up our air? Air pollutants
in the San Joaquin Valley have gone up 17 percent in the last three years
alone.

(DOES 200: So, ok, then pass an ordinance in San Joaquin Valley and leave the rest of us alone! I wasn't aware that this bill only applied to San Joaquin Valley.)

SB708, with our most recent amendments, will require vehicles over 30 years
old which are driven 12,000 or more miles a year to get a smog check. Cars
which are not used as a primary vehicle, driven on a dailty basis, should
not fall under this definition. The collector car industry representatives
we have worked with so far agree that this is a fair compromise which
protects collectors and hobbyists, while cutting down on auto emissions.

(DOES 200: That's nice but how will this be monitored? Check in with the DMV each year to have them simply read our odomiters?)

(DOES 200: One of my buddies said a similar bill faied about a year or two ago, because it was targeting ethnic minorities and the minorities and their supportive groups filed complaints, stating that it was discriminatory by targeting them because they drove these older type cars).

(DOES 200: Can anyone simply ask the Senator how many cars he sees on the road that are over 30 years old? Or better yet, I would like to see the actual stats (% of cars older than 30 years old that are currently registered). When I drive around CA, it is very very rare that I ever see a car that is older than 30 years old on the road, at least in Orange County anyway. I say protect your presious San Joaquin Valley where it appears there are massive amounts of cars greater than 30 years old, and leave the rest of us alone).

I don't believe Senator Florez for one second. In my letter to all the senators I also stated how rare it is to see the cars that will be effected by this bill. And I Re-checked SB708 on the senate web site and it says nothing about 12,000 miles. I also sent an email to Jay Leno, nothing back yet.

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry M:
And I Re-checked SB708 on the senate web site and it says nothing about 12,000 miles.

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Ha Ha, that's our CA politicians for ya. Won't it be something if this passes coupled with the car registration fees poised to tripple in CA, probably around May or so. That's not a done deal yet, but from what I hear it will be.

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry M:

The 12,000 mile portion of SB 708 can be found by going to sen.ca.gov, then going to legislation, then SB 708, then click on the ammended bill. This ammended version would still be bad for us because they are going to want to read our odometers, and you just know this will cost us money not to mention the inconvience!
Art


I don't believe Senator Florez for one second. In my letter to all the senators I also stated how rare it is to see the cars that will be effected by this bill. And I Re-checked SB708 on the senate web site and it says nothing about 12,000 miles. I also sent an email to Jay Leno, nothing back yet.

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quote:

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Originally" TARGET=_blank>http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_0701-0750/sb_708_bill_20030326_amended_sen.html[QUOTE]Originally posted by Art Stephens:

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I go for my 2 year smog test tomorrow for my Maserati Biturbo (Detomaso). This should be really something. Last time after about 7 or so trips to the smog station & state referee, they finally wanted to call a dealer to discuss the engine set up (stock engine nonetheless). Finally my Italian mechanic (who looks and talks like the Godfather) talked to them on the phone and told them, "look, the car runs clean, there is no dealer in America, but if you want, I can give you the number for the factory in Italy...can you speak Italian?" Next thing I knew, I paid my $50 or so and was out of there with my clean smog check. Boy I shake when I think of the crap that I had to go through, evethough the exhaust fumes were clean and well within limits. I can't imagine what they would do to my modified Pantera...maybe only 5 trips to the state referee before they sleep with the fishes.

Keep up the emails!!! Maybe we still have a chance.

LAST HIST. ACTION : From committee with author's amendments. Read second time. Amended. Re-referred to committee.
COMM. LOCATION : SEN TRANSPORTATION
HEARING DATE : 04/29/2003

Information is from �Falconclub and Trivalley news.

Sen. Dean Florez has amended his proposal to require smog checks for cars back to 1960. Mr Leno personally called Florez's office to lobby against the plan.
The lawmaker was also inundated with letters, e-mails and phone calls from many other members of the highly organized hobby car community.

Florez was forced to back down on the bill, one in a package of 10 bills aimed at cleaning up the air in the Central Valley, before it even got its first legislative hearing.

This time it doesn't give a model year exemption AT ALL and no specifics. This is leaving loopholes for everyone to take advantage of each other. Keep up the pressure, don't let Florez fool anyone he is not letting this bill go!

Can Florez spell "Retard"?