Thank you, Philippe!
January 1983?
If so, and unless the build year was 1980, this clearly was not the Turin car and not the first GT5.
I think that I have seen somewhere the chassis number of all Paris show cars, need to look
Ok, I will look to find the first car GT5 !
The first GT5 S is 9509, it s all documented
The first GT5 S is 9509, it s all documented
I look the number below 9250 and see yourself 9249 GT5, then the claim of 9250 is wrong ...
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If people want to see more, I need the permisson of Georges, then ask him to let me show more
Phillippe please provide Peter with the information you’ve promised; i.e. the list of Paris show cars and the data for the early GT5 wide bodies.
I would like to add a few words which may help avoid confusion:
(1) Early GT4s (1978 - 1979)
The first wide body Pantera evolved over a short period of time. It seems the Pirelli 345/35VR15 tires became available in 1978 and both De Tomaso and Lamborghini revised their cars to take advantage of them quickly and simultaneously. The wide body Pantera began as a GTS custom ordered equipped with Grp4 flares, Grp4 type wheels, and 345/35VR15 Pirellis. Pictures of a GTS thus equipped can be found in Wyss’ 1981 book on page 126 and his 1991 book on page 231. The Pantera thus equipped quickly evolved into a distinct model and was given the name GT4. A silver (or is it blue?) GTS with Grp4 flares, referred to as a 1979 GT4, can be seen on page 71 of Norbye’s Pantera book. I’m not sure if Peter is interested in these “earliest wide bodies” which sported Grp4 flares.
(2) Latter GT4s/GT5s (1979 - 1980)
Then new bodywork was developed for the GT4 in 1979, i.e. the GT5 bodywork with "running boards" and the deep front air dam we are all familiar with. So there are actually a few wide bodies out there with GT5 bodywork that have data plates referring to them as a GT4, I’ve seen pictures of a red one, I believe it was in Spain. Norbye refers to the red wide body with GT5 bodywork on page 72 of his book as a GT4. Finally Norbye refers to the white GT5 displayed at the 1980 Turin show (page 120) as “the latest GTS”; how’s that for confusion? However I believe by then the name on the data plate had changed to GT5 ... same exact car as the latter GT4 just a new name.
(3) Chassis number verses build date
The Panteras of this era were not necessarily assembled in order of chassis number; it is possible that 9250 was assembled before 9249. I’m not saying that’s the case, but it is possible. So it would be helpful to Peter if assembly date information is included with your findings.
(4) Post Sale GT5s
Owners were so impressed with the wide body GT5 bodywork and the wide Pirelli tires that a good number of GTS, Gp3, and "early GT4" Pantera owners transported their cars to the factory and had them retro-fitted with GT5 bodywork; in other words Panteras originally sold as other models were revised by the factory to become GT5 Panteras "post sale". So while they have lower chassis numbers and earlier build dates such cars cannot possibly be considered as among the earliest GT5s.
I would like to add a few words which may help avoid confusion:
(1) Early GT4s (1978 - 1979)
The first wide body Pantera evolved over a short period of time. It seems the Pirelli 345/35VR15 tires became available in 1978 and both De Tomaso and Lamborghini revised their cars to take advantage of them quickly and simultaneously. The wide body Pantera began as a GTS custom ordered equipped with Grp4 flares, Grp4 type wheels, and 345/35VR15 Pirellis. Pictures of a GTS thus equipped can be found in Wyss’ 1981 book on page 126 and his 1991 book on page 231. The Pantera thus equipped quickly evolved into a distinct model and was given the name GT4. A silver (or is it blue?) GTS with Grp4 flares, referred to as a 1979 GT4, can be seen on page 71 of Norbye’s Pantera book. I’m not sure if Peter is interested in these “earliest wide bodies” which sported Grp4 flares.
(2) Latter GT4s/GT5s (1979 - 1980)
Then new bodywork was developed for the GT4 in 1979, i.e. the GT5 bodywork with "running boards" and the deep front air dam we are all familiar with. So there are actually a few wide bodies out there with GT5 bodywork that have data plates referring to them as a GT4, I’ve seen pictures of a red one, I believe it was in Spain. Norbye refers to the red wide body with GT5 bodywork on page 72 of his book as a GT4. Finally Norbye refers to the white GT5 displayed at the 1980 Turin show (page 120) as “the latest GTS”; how’s that for confusion? However I believe by then the name on the data plate had changed to GT5 ... same exact car as the latter GT4 just a new name.
(3) Chassis number verses build date
The Panteras of this era were not necessarily assembled in order of chassis number; it is possible that 9250 was assembled before 9249. I’m not saying that’s the case, but it is possible. So it would be helpful to Peter if assembly date information is included with your findings.
(4) Post Sale GT5s
Owners were so impressed with the wide body GT5 bodywork and the wide Pirelli tires that a good number of GTS, Gp3, and "early GT4" Pantera owners transported their cars to the factory and had them retro-fitted with GT5 bodywork; in other words Panteras originally sold as other models were revised by the factory to become GT5 Panteras "post sale". So while they have lower chassis numbers and earlier build dates such cars cannot possibly be considered as among the earliest GT5s.
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GT5 but don’t look like the first
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9159 order as same car from salon
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9159
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Thank you very much for the information that you have provided, Philippe. By providing the VIN of the Salon car, you have enabled us to calculate the maximum number of GT5 Panteras that could have been produced. In one stroke you have dropped the number I have been working with by 58!
I will recalculate the GT5 number as soon as I have some time, and post it here, but I expect many people will be surprised by how low that number has now become.
I have a number of other questions for you, Philippe, and I will post them here as soon as I can (I'm travelling on business and just grabbing bits of time between flights).
Thanks again.
- Peter
I will recalculate the GT5 number as soon as I have some time, and post it here, but I expect many people will be surprised by how low that number has now become.
I have a number of other questions for you, Philippe, and I will post them here as soon as I can (I'm travelling on business and just grabbing bits of time between flights).
Thanks again.
- Peter
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Ok Peter, will look theses
Peter, congratulations as I learn something today
9127 = GT5, but
9127 = GT5, but
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9127 = GT5, but
9134 = GTS/4 , did not known this model
9134 = GTS/4 , did not known this model
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quote:9134 = GTS/4 , did not known this model
We learn everyday
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9149 = GTS/4 also
First time that I have seen theses names
First time that I have seen theses names
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I call a fews friends deep inside DT brand and they never heard about GTS/4
May be it s well known and we are ignorant..it s possible lol
May be it s well known and we are ignorant..it s possible lol
Look like that GTS/4 is like a racing street version of the GTS. Who known about them ?
Phillippe they were simply called "GT4". You may want to refer to my comments on the previous page.
The wide body street Panteras were "born" in 1978, and 1978 through 1980 was an evolutionary period.
The factory used the term GT4 only a short time, perhaps a year and a half, no more. 1978 - 1979. They were GTS with Group 4 fender flares, Group 4 wheels, and just released Pirelli P7 street tires in 285/40VR15 front and 345/35VR15 rear. I believe the flares, wheels, and tires were offered as an option package for GTS Panteras. So GTS/4 is meant to indicate this.
Then in 1979 new body work was developed with "one piece" fender flares for each side, connected by running boards, and a deep front air dam that ties the two sides together. This of course was the GT5 bodywork. It was in response to the bodywork Lamborghini had developed for the Countach.
One or more GT4s were built with this bodywork then De Tomaso changed the name to GT5, circa 1980. So there are one or more GT4s that look like GT5s. I would suspect your list of GTS/4 cars includes both type of cars, those with Group 4 flares, and those with the new GT5 bodywork. But that is only my guess.
It would be worth Peter's consideration that the first Pantera (or first few Panteras) with GT5 bodywork was/were designated GT4 or GTS/4 by the factory.
At some point in this period De Tomaso decided that instead of building the wide body GT4 with GTS equipment, it should be offered as an "upscale" premium model ... with the best Group 3 brakes, the best Group 3 shocks & springs, and the best pleated leather interior with plush seating, etc.
The wide body street Panteras were "born" in 1978, and 1978 through 1980 was an evolutionary period.
The factory used the term GT4 only a short time, perhaps a year and a half, no more. 1978 - 1979. They were GTS with Group 4 fender flares, Group 4 wheels, and just released Pirelli P7 street tires in 285/40VR15 front and 345/35VR15 rear. I believe the flares, wheels, and tires were offered as an option package for GTS Panteras. So GTS/4 is meant to indicate this.
Then in 1979 new body work was developed with "one piece" fender flares for each side, connected by running boards, and a deep front air dam that ties the two sides together. This of course was the GT5 bodywork. It was in response to the bodywork Lamborghini had developed for the Countach.
One or more GT4s were built with this bodywork then De Tomaso changed the name to GT5, circa 1980. So there are one or more GT4s that look like GT5s. I would suspect your list of GTS/4 cars includes both type of cars, those with Group 4 flares, and those with the new GT5 bodywork. But that is only my guess.
It would be worth Peter's consideration that the first Pantera (or first few Panteras) with GT5 bodywork was/were designated GT4 or GTS/4 by the factory.
At some point in this period De Tomaso decided that instead of building the wide body GT4 with GTS equipment, it should be offered as an "upscale" premium model ... with the best Group 3 brakes, the best Group 3 shocks & springs, and the best pleated leather interior with plush seating, etc.
Will look deeper to find the options of theses cars.
Thank you
Thank you