There is also a picture of a Pantera at Bonneville with a guy leaning over the fender of a Boss 429 powered Pantera.
The caption credits the person to be Mike Cook. When I asked Mike, he vehemently denied ever being there or that being him.
Hall denied the Boss 429.
I suppose this is could all a be just a figment of my imagination but more likely just a fragment of my memories?
As I said, which engine, who did you talk to, what time was it? I can only state the contents of the conversation that I personally had with these characters.
After all, considering the entire nature of the "car industry", they both could have been Aliens posing as Hall and Cook? How could I tell the difference?
THIS IS MY OPINION
1. 4.22 Stock Gears is still pretty Low.
2. We may be forgetting that relative to other Machines, the Pantera has NO Weight in the Nose.
3. With Exact Coordinated Use of the Clutch and Accelerator, Even I can bring the Nose of My pantera off the ground, as little as one inch.
4. I once owned a '78 Trans-Am Firebird with a .030" over 400 Iron Pontiac engine. I Stripped over 800 pounds off the car and Doubled the Horsepower to 500+. Another Dual-Quad 390cfm DP, Plus, Set-Up. The Torque? I don't know! I could Easily bring the Nose of that car 3-4 Inches off the ground, And NOT move FORWARD 2 Inches At Will. That Machine could do 0-100 MPH in 5.0 Seconds Flat! By a Stop-Watch! You think the Speedometer was Inaccurate? Actually, as the rear tires were 35" in Diameter, I was Going faster than 100MPH.
Now we will hear from the Non-Believers. Think about this...as soon as the Clutch was 'Dumped', the Machine was going 50 MPH! It has 4 more Seconds to shift through the gears. I believe I took Third Gear to 100 and never used Fourth in the 4-Speed. There was a witness passenger working the Stop-Watch, at another time, starting on the shoulder of the Freeway, I only pulled 7 seconds to 100 mph, with a rear tire Low on air.
In over 20 years of street racing the Pontiac was never defeated. Just Ask the Owner of the $90,000 Porsche. Hammering his fist on the Dash when I blew his 'Doors off' at the 'Light'! Or the 'Brothers' in Oakland, late one night, on the side of Warren Freeway, flipping Me the 'Bird', getting out of their car, just after Blowing the Engine Up, trying to keep-up and 'Top-End' Me. Oh, the gearing was just a 3.90 IMPOSSIBLE!! Don't believe it? Most people Don't! Even the Witness Didn't Believe! The Stop-Watch Doesn't lie!! I'am THAT Good.
And here is a Tip for All you want-to-be Racers. Since I No longer care about being 'King of the Mountain' and the PROS Already Know this 'Secret'....The technique to Being Undefeated is..You Don't Launch-off in First Gear, you don't even use first. you don't even 'Launch'! You 'Easily' and Controlled, Take-Off in Second Gear!! The result is, the rear tires are NEVER broken loose! You start already 'Hooked-Up'. You give Her the Gas for ALL She's Got! Meanwhile, Your Competition is just burning rubber, thinking he's some kind of Bad-Ass, and watching You Move Out! When he shifts into second You have Already Hit Third. Him Third You've Been in Fourth. He'll Never Catch You!! The Physics are...1\100th Second on 'The Line' equals 1\10th of a Second at the 1/4 Mile Finish! Now some of you must be asking Why I Never raced on a Track??? Ever? the answers are:
1. Too Many Rules!
2. My 'Street Machine' would Never have passed Qualification. It was Deemed 'Illegal' on the Racrtrack! Every Racetrack in the World! Illegal on the Street? Very Very Illegal on the Street!
3. I Never had the Monies! All My Money was spent on High Performance Parts, and Machine Shop Work! And as I have often been Quoted as saying..."Power is Expensive!". These days it's Very Expensive.
And Last 4. I was perfectly Satisfied just being 'King of the Road'. The Main Boulevard Road, the Stop-Light, Stop-Sign Road, and Every Backroad there was.
A 'Little' Ego showing here? If You don't have pride in what you built into your Machinery, Or You don't think Your the "Best There Is, Was or Ever Will Be; then you aught to stay home sitting on your couch and watching TV! Yes! Watching Others Racing, On TV!
Will We Hear from the Next Champian!
1. 4.22 Stock Gears is still pretty Low.
2. We may be forgetting that relative to other Machines, the Pantera has NO Weight in the Nose.
3. With Exact Coordinated Use of the Clutch and Accelerator, Even I can bring the Nose of My pantera off the ground, as little as one inch.
4. I once owned a '78 Trans-Am Firebird with a .030" over 400 Iron Pontiac engine. I Stripped over 800 pounds off the car and Doubled the Horsepower to 500+. Another Dual-Quad 390cfm DP, Plus, Set-Up. The Torque? I don't know! I could Easily bring the Nose of that car 3-4 Inches off the ground, And NOT move FORWARD 2 Inches At Will. That Machine could do 0-100 MPH in 5.0 Seconds Flat! By a Stop-Watch! You think the Speedometer was Inaccurate? Actually, as the rear tires were 35" in Diameter, I was Going faster than 100MPH.
Now we will hear from the Non-Believers. Think about this...as soon as the Clutch was 'Dumped', the Machine was going 50 MPH! It has 4 more Seconds to shift through the gears. I believe I took Third Gear to 100 and never used Fourth in the 4-Speed. There was a witness passenger working the Stop-Watch, at another time, starting on the shoulder of the Freeway, I only pulled 7 seconds to 100 mph, with a rear tire Low on air.
In over 20 years of street racing the Pontiac was never defeated. Just Ask the Owner of the $90,000 Porsche. Hammering his fist on the Dash when I blew his 'Doors off' at the 'Light'! Or the 'Brothers' in Oakland, late one night, on the side of Warren Freeway, flipping Me the 'Bird', getting out of their car, just after Blowing the Engine Up, trying to keep-up and 'Top-End' Me. Oh, the gearing was just a 3.90 IMPOSSIBLE!! Don't believe it? Most people Don't! Even the Witness Didn't Believe! The Stop-Watch Doesn't lie!! I'am THAT Good.
And here is a Tip for All you want-to-be Racers. Since I No longer care about being 'King of the Mountain' and the PROS Already Know this 'Secret'....The technique to Being Undefeated is..You Don't Launch-off in First Gear, you don't even use first. you don't even 'Launch'! You 'Easily' and Controlled, Take-Off in Second Gear!! The result is, the rear tires are NEVER broken loose! You start already 'Hooked-Up'. You give Her the Gas for ALL She's Got! Meanwhile, Your Competition is just burning rubber, thinking he's some kind of Bad-Ass, and watching You Move Out! When he shifts into second You have Already Hit Third. Him Third You've Been in Fourth. He'll Never Catch You!! The Physics are...1\100th Second on 'The Line' equals 1\10th of a Second at the 1/4 Mile Finish! Now some of you must be asking Why I Never raced on a Track??? Ever? the answers are:
1. Too Many Rules!
2. My 'Street Machine' would Never have passed Qualification. It was Deemed 'Illegal' on the Racrtrack! Every Racetrack in the World! Illegal on the Street? Very Very Illegal on the Street!
3. I Never had the Monies! All My Money was spent on High Performance Parts, and Machine Shop Work! And as I have often been Quoted as saying..."Power is Expensive!". These days it's Very Expensive.
And Last 4. I was perfectly Satisfied just being 'King of the Road'. The Main Boulevard Road, the Stop-Light, Stop-Sign Road, and Every Backroad there was.
A 'Little' Ego showing here? If You don't have pride in what you built into your Machinery, Or You don't think Your the "Best There Is, Was or Ever Will Be; then you aught to stay home sitting on your couch and watching TV! Yes! Watching Others Racing, On TV!
Will We Hear from the Next Champian!
In drag racing, in order to have a low elapsed time, you need torque multiplication in first gear.
The guide is to multiply the first gear ratio times the final drive ratio.
You want that number to be somewhere between about 11 and 15.
The Pantera has a first gear ratio of 2.20. The same as a GM t-10 does. The product of the rear and first gear is 9.284.
As such the quarter mile times will pretty much match a 65 GT350. It ran 14.8, 14.9. Just what the stock Pantera was timed at.
The 65 GT350 has a 2.20 first gear and a 3.89 rear, = 8.558. Very similar 1/4 mile speeds, 0-60. Frankly at the point gear ratios were being selected for the Pantera, that is the number the engineers were looking at. The 65 GT350 was the "target" in that sense.
If you look at what Hall did, installed the 5.38 final drive, it produces a product of 11.836.
Compare that to a 60's Mustang and Camaros with a 2.32 first (2.20 GM), 4.88 rears were the norm for class drag racing and probably the minimum to make the car run, those runs are pretty much 11's, sometimes dipping into the 10s? 11.3 is the ratio multiplication factor there.
The horsepower comes into play more for the trap speeds but it is ET's that win races.
It isn't necessarily the rear end ratio, it is the product of first gear times the rear.
Look at the new 6 speed ZF Butfoy built. What is first gear? (hint, 3.27) What is the final drive ratio? (hint 4.22)
Those ratios are necessary to have a car run in current super car times of 0-60, 1/4 mile.
It isn't me. It's the physics of the situation.
Talk to the drag racers. They probably can explain it better than I?
The guide is to multiply the first gear ratio times the final drive ratio.
You want that number to be somewhere between about 11 and 15.
The Pantera has a first gear ratio of 2.20. The same as a GM t-10 does. The product of the rear and first gear is 9.284.
As such the quarter mile times will pretty much match a 65 GT350. It ran 14.8, 14.9. Just what the stock Pantera was timed at.
The 65 GT350 has a 2.20 first gear and a 3.89 rear, = 8.558. Very similar 1/4 mile speeds, 0-60. Frankly at the point gear ratios were being selected for the Pantera, that is the number the engineers were looking at. The 65 GT350 was the "target" in that sense.
If you look at what Hall did, installed the 5.38 final drive, it produces a product of 11.836.
Compare that to a 60's Mustang and Camaros with a 2.32 first (2.20 GM), 4.88 rears were the norm for class drag racing and probably the minimum to make the car run, those runs are pretty much 11's, sometimes dipping into the 10s? 11.3 is the ratio multiplication factor there.
The horsepower comes into play more for the trap speeds but it is ET's that win races.
It isn't necessarily the rear end ratio, it is the product of first gear times the rear.
Look at the new 6 speed ZF Butfoy built. What is first gear? (hint, 3.27) What is the final drive ratio? (hint 4.22)
Those ratios are necessary to have a car run in current super car times of 0-60, 1/4 mile.
It isn't me. It's the physics of the situation.
Talk to the drag racers. They probably can explain it better than I?
I'm "Confused"!!!...hopefully you can clarify.quote:Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
THIS MY OPINION
1. 4.22 Stock Gears is still pretty Low.
2. We may be forgetting that relative to other Machines, the Pantera has NO Weight in the Nose.
3. With Exact Coordinated Use of the Clutch and Accelerator, Even I can bring the Nose of My pantera off the ground, as little as one inch.
4. I once owned a '78 Trans-Am Firebird with a .030" over 400 Iron Pontiac engine. I Stripped over 800 pounds off the car and Doubled the Horsepower to 500+. Another Dual-Quad 390cfm DP, Plus, Set-Up. The Torque? I don't know! I could Easily bring the Nose of that car 3-4 Inches off the ground, And NOT move FORWARD 2 Inches At Will. That Machine could do 0-100 MPH in 5.0 Seconds Flat! By a Stop-Watch! You think the Speedometer was Inaccurate? Actually, as the rear tires were 35" in Diameter, I was Going faster than 100MPH.
Now we will hear from the Non-Believers. Think about this...as soon as the Clutch was 'Dumped', the Machine was going 50 MPH! It has 4 more Seconds to shift through the gears. I believe I took Third Gear to 100 and never used Fourth in the 4-Speed. There was a witness passenger working the Stop-Watch, at another time, starting on the shoulder of the Freeway, I only pulled 7 seconds to 100 mph, with a rear tire Low on air.
In over 20 years of street racing the Pontiac was never defeated. Just Ask the Owner of the $90,000 Porsche. Hammering his fist on the Dash when I blew his 'Doors off' at the 'Light'! Or the 'Brothers' in Oakland, late one night, on the side of Warren Freeway, flipping Me the 'Bird', getting out of their car, just after Blowing the Engine Up, trying to keep-up and 'Top-End' Me. Oh, the gearing was just a 3.90 IMPOSSIBLE!! Don't believe it? Most people Don't! Even the Witness Didn't Believe! The Stop-Watch Doesn't lie!! I'am THAT Good.
And here is a Tip for All you want-to-be Racers. Since I No longer care about being 'King of the Mountain' and the PROS Already Know this 'Secret'....The technique to Being Undefeated is..You Don't Launch-off in First Gear, you don't even use first. you don't even 'Launch'! You 'Easily' and Controlled, Take-Off in Second Gear!! The result is, the rear tires are NEVER broken loose! You start already 'Hooked-Up'. You give Her the Gas for ALL She's Got! Meanwhile, Your Competition is just burning rubber, thinking he's some kind of Bad-Ass, and watching You Move Out! When he shifts into second You have Already Hit Third. Him Third You've Been in Fourth. He'll Never Catch You!! The Physics are...1\100th Second on 'The Line' equals 1\10th of a Second at the 1/4 Mile Finish! Now some of you must be asking Why I Never raced on a Track??? Ever? the answers are:
1. Too Many Rules!
2. My 'Street Machine' would Never have passed Qualification. It was Deemed 'Illegal' on the Racrtrack! Every Racetrack in the World! Illegal on the Street? Very Very Illegal on the Street!
3. I Never had the Monies! All My Money was spent on High Performance Parts, and Machine Shop Work! And as I have often been Quoted as saying..."Power is Expensive!". These days it's Very Expensive.
And Last 4. I was perfectly Satisfied just being 'King of the Road'. The Main Boulevard Road, the Stop-Light, Stop-Sign Road, and Every Backroad there was.
A 'Little' Ego showing here? If You don't have pride in what you built into your Machinery, Or You don't think Your the "Best There Is, Was or Ever Will Be; then you aught to stay home sitting on your couch and watching TV! Yes! Watching Others Racing, On TV!
Will We Hear from the Next Champian!
You claim that to be "King of the Mountain"...start off in second gear... "The technique to Being Undefeated is..You Don't Launch-off in First Gear, you don't even use first".
You then claim... "Think about this...as soon as the Clutch was 'Dumped', the Machine was going 50 MPH! It has 4 more Seconds to shift through the gears. I believe I took Third Gear to 100 and never used Fourth in the 4-Speed".
Being that you started in "second" & DON'T use "forth"....you are in fact according to your own statement, just shifting "1" time!
You also claim that "The Brothers" were trying to "Top End" you...meaning highest MPH.
"the 'Brothers' in Oakland, late one night, on the side of Warren Freeway, flipping Me the 'Bird', getting out of their car, just after Blowing the Engine Up, trying to keep-up and 'Top-End' Me. Oh, the gearing was just a 3.90 IMPOSSIBLE!! Don't believe it?"
How do you achieve the HIGHEST MPH if you NEVER shift into forth gear, considering you were using 3.90 gearing???!!!
So...according to Marlin Jack...the "Secret" to being "King of the Mountain"...is...Starting in second & NEVER shifting into forth for top end MPH.
WOW!!!...Seems ALL the Top Professional Drag Racers have been doing it WRONG for decades!!!...Mark
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
In drag racing, in order to have a low elapsed time, you need torque multiplication in first gear.
The guide is to multiply the first gear ratio times the final drive ratio.
You want that number to be somewhere between about 11 and 15.
The Pantera has a first gear ratio of 2.20. The same as a GM t-10 does. The product of the rear and first gear is 9.284.
As such the quarter mile times will pretty much match a 65 GT350. It ran 14.8, 14.9. Just what the stock Pantera was timed at.
If you look at what Hall did, installed the 5.38 final drive, it produces a product of 11.836.
Compare that to a Mustang and Camaros with a 2.32 first (2.20 GM), 4.88 rears were the norm and probably the minimum to make the car run, those runs are pretty much 11's, sometimes dipping into the 10s? 11.3 is the ratio multiplication factor there.
The horsepower comes in for the trap speeds but it is ET's that win races.
It isn't necessarily the rear end ratio, it is the product of first gear times the rear.
Look at the new 6 speed ZF Butmore built. What is first gear? (hint, 3.27) What is the final drive ratio? (hint 4.22)
Those ratios are necessary to have a car run in current super car times of 0-60, 1/4 mile.
It isn't me. It's the physics of the situation.
Talk to the drag racers. They probably can explain it better than I?
Did you NOT read Marlin Jack's..."Secrets to Drag Racing"
You START IN SECOND GEAR!...ONLY SHIFT ONCE into Third gear!!!
What is this blasphemy you are espousing???!!
Talking about scientific FIRST gear Ratios & 6 SPEED transmissions???!!!
Did you NOT read the "King of the Mountain" post??!!
Your glass MUST be 1/2 full & cracked & teetering on the edge of the table with a young toddler positioned directly underneath!...Mark
Like any hotrod group the pantera world is not void of folks exaggerating horsepower numbers. Either they get smoke blown up their a$$ by the builder/assembler or the cars get passed between owners with no real world tests to confirm said claims. Then you have the distinction between an engine dyno and a chassis dyno. Yeah great it makes xxx on an engine dyno, by the time you put on a typical pantera exhaust, accessories, through the zf you've lost over 100+hp on a chassis dyno as mentioned previously. So of course the owner would rather advertise the engine dyno number assuming they even have that. Part of the hotrodding territory I guess.
quote:Originally posted by Hustler:
Like any hotrod group the pantera world is not void of folks exaggerating horsepower numbers. Either they get smoke blown up their a$$ by the builder/assembler or the cars get passed between owners with no real world tests to confirm said claims. Then you have the distinction between an engine dyno and a chassis dyno. Yeah great it makes xxx on an engine dyno, by the time you put on a typical pantera exhaust, accessories, through the zf you've lost over 100+hp on a chassis dyno as mentioned previously. So of course the owner would rather advertise the engine dyno number assuming they even have that. Part of the hotrodding territory I guess.
I wish that someone would dyno their engine after a new build and then chassis dyno their car after so we can finally confirm actual ZF losses.
Will
quote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
In drag racing, in order to have a low elapsed time, you need torque multiplication in first gear.
The guide is to multiply the first gear ratio times the final drive ratio.
You want that number to be somewhere between about 11 and 15.
The Pantera has a first gear ratio of 2.20. The same as a GM t-10 does. The product of the rear and first gear is 9.284.
As such the quarter mile times will pretty much match a 65 GT350. It ran 14.8, 14.9. Just what the stock Pantera was timed at.
If you look at what Hall did, installed the 5.38 final drive, it produces a product of 11.836.
Compare that to a Mustang and Camaros with a 2.32 first (2.20 GM), 4.88 rears were the norm and probably the minimum to make the car run, those runs are pretty much 11's, sometimes dipping into the 10s? 11.3 is the ratio multiplication factor there.
The horsepower comes in for the trap speeds but it is ET's that win races.
It isn't necessarily the rear end ratio, it is the product of first gear times the rear.
Look at the new 6 speed ZF Butmore built. What is first gear? (hint, 3.27) What is the final drive ratio? (hint 4.22)
Those ratios are necessary to have a car run in current super car times of 0-60, 1/4 mile.
It isn't me. It's the physics of the situation.
Talk to the drag racers. They probably can explain it better than I?Doug!. Doug!!..Doug!!!...I'm SURPRISED at YOU!!!
Did you NOT read Marlin Jack's..."Secrets to Drag Racing"post???!!
You START IN SECOND GEAR!...ONLY SHIFT ONCE into Third gear!!!
What is this blasphemy you are espousing???!!
Talking about scientific FIRST gear Ratios & 6 SPEED transmissions???!!!
Did you NOT read the "King of the Mountain" post??!!
Your glass MUST be 1/2 full & cracked & teetering on the edge of the table with a young toddler positioned directly underneath!...Mark
I know...can you find it in you heart to forgive me?
The Rocket Scientist is Confused??
I don't blame you. Now I'am going to spell IT out for You. When I'am done you'll be re-calibrating your BS Meter, Cause I 'ain't' heading 'Out the Front Door' anymore, although, I now, consider you to be a Friend. Oh, by the way.. you mis-spelled 'Fourth'!
I was writing about 3 Different and Separate (By Years)Incidences.
Incident 1) The Second Gear 'Take-Off' would be used at the Dragstrip, against the 'Lights'! As Far as 'Elapsed Times'...Even a Genious should Know, that the 'Clock' is Also Running on the Guy sitting there Burning Rubber, twiddling his thumbs, just waiting for the tires to lock-up, While the guy leaving in Second gear is MOVING almost Instantly! Did YOU even read this?? As Much "I canna Break the Laws of Physics Cap'n" (Scotti on Star Trek) The STOP_WATCH DOES NOT LIE!! Get the Picture now? Oh! and I forgot, as far as the lights, You don't dump the clutch on the Green Light, You dump on the LAST YELLOW! It takes That last split second before the Machine starts Moving forward and Cuts the Timer Light. NOT so soon as to 'red Light'. The guy who waits until the Green is left in the others' exhaust.
Incident 2) The TRUE scenario! Hayward California, I just got off work on West Winton, stopped at a red light, in the Trans-Am. I was in the right lane of 2, to continue forward, once the light turn Green. Low and behold, This guy pulls up in the 'Right turn only lane', and stops, he's going to jump forward and cut Me off, in the Intersection. He Thinks! He's in One of those Expensive Porsches, I MEAN Real EXPENSIVE Porsches!! A Turbo Something, kinda rounded, looks like a t*rd, boys with Small P***** buy them, think they get Girls.(They might get Girls, but they Don't get the Women)
Anyway...the Light Turns GREEN. Yes!! This time I'am Taking off in FIRST, High Pressure Fuel Pump-ON! I have a Surprise for You! We BOTH go for it. In an Explosion of Torque I took Him by On car Length, halfway into the Intersection! "Blew his SH** Into the Wind!!" If he hadn't backed-off in time, he would have taken out the fire hydrant on the next corner. I'am laughing the best laugh of my Lifetime, watching him in My rearview Mirror, Pounding, Pounding his fist into the dashboard of his 'second place' little Porsche. Praises to a 42 Pound Flywheel! I launched at near 7000. Just one race of 100's in 2 Plus Decades.
Incident 3) TRUE SCENERIO: This was NOT a 'Standing Start'! Warren Freeway, Oakland California, 2:00AM in the Morning. I've been out Cruising all Night, my brother in the next seat. We're Cruising easy heading home about 65 MPH. Don't want to get 'Pulled Over'. Coming onto the freeway at the on-ramp we just passed, an Impala. It catches up to us, side by side, Revs the Engine Loud! I'am thinking WHY NOT, This is what we're here for! Together, we Both punch it for 'All she's got'. Pedal to the metal, Go for Broke! NO LETTING UP!! YES! MR 'ROCKET', I'am IN FOURTH GEAR!!! I don't have a Fifth. We got fast! Really Fast! Scary Fast! My Speedo was over 140 and the Dual 390's were still Making power with the tach reading 8200. He was still with Me, must have had a BIG BLOCK and gears. Nose to Nose, he might have even started pulling ahead by an Inch! I was starting to think...am I going to be the one to Chicken-Out? When, His Engine decided for us, and Blew-Up. I wasn't looking to see sparks or smoke, but the Noise was Incredible! Then I backed Off. In the Dim light of the Freeway in the rearview mirror, before getting over the hill and out of site, I watched as 3 Blacks exited their vehicle with their fists waving in the air. I'am sure one May have been flipping Me off. I wasn't going to stop and help, You pay your dues and you race. Win or loose. I'am reminded of this incident everytime I hear the line in that Bruce Springstein tune..."The Highway's Lined with Broken Heroes on a Last Chance Power Try".
In over 20 Years of Street Racing in that Trans-Am 400, I was Never defeated in 100's of races. That's what I built the Car for. Except just one single time in Oakland, a 454 Camaro took Me off the Line, a un-planned, coincidental meeting at a red light! My Engine 'Aborted' as I had 'Forgotten' to switch-over from the Low Pressure Fuel Pump to the High Pressure. Never met him again for a re-match.
I Have been called a Liar Many, Many times in My life. I'll be 64 in November. I don't listen to it anymore. I haven't told these experiences very often an not in a long time. I've run into 100's of guys like that. They know everything. They bench race. They tell Me what Can't be done! They talk all their BS, they Do Calculations on a Calculator, pronounce what they think is Impossible and repeat some 'Experts' Theories, and Talk and Talk some more! I only deal in the Facts! And the Fact is, I went Out and PROVED IT!!
Oh! one More thing about 'bringing the Nose off the Ground', It's Much easier to Do after you install a 'Torque Chain', it's A MUST!. I recommend not Smaller than 3/8" Links. You Don't know what a Torque Chain IS for, or where it goes? And you call yourself a 'Racecar Driver'!
To settle the question of 'Never using Fourth Gear'. The ONLY time I didn't use 4th was when I did the 0-100 MPH time. Yes, I started in First, took second, third, and took THIRD all the way too 100MPH on the Speedo, Just as the Tach needle crossed over Redline. 5.0 Seconds. 2 Shifts. 3.90 Gears 35.0 Inch Tires. First was Not wound out, it was used just to get rolling, to get into second as soon as possible. Second was wound out past redline. I Believe the redline was 7500-8000 on that Pontiac 400. A True race engine. Solid, Strong, all the Rigidity Parts. Yes! I took the risk of Blowing Her Up.
And one most important thing is that Trans-Am was Drastically 'Weight Stripped'. Around 2200-2300 lbs. 525 HP. Everything that was not making power, was taken off, except the Brakes.
Still Confused Rocket? Doug? Now I'am Laughing!
I don't blame you. Now I'am going to spell IT out for You. When I'am done you'll be re-calibrating your BS Meter, Cause I 'ain't' heading 'Out the Front Door' anymore, although, I now, consider you to be a Friend. Oh, by the way.. you mis-spelled 'Fourth'!
I was writing about 3 Different and Separate (By Years)Incidences.
Incident 1) The Second Gear 'Take-Off' would be used at the Dragstrip, against the 'Lights'! As Far as 'Elapsed Times'...Even a Genious should Know, that the 'Clock' is Also Running on the Guy sitting there Burning Rubber, twiddling his thumbs, just waiting for the tires to lock-up, While the guy leaving in Second gear is MOVING almost Instantly! Did YOU even read this?? As Much "I canna Break the Laws of Physics Cap'n" (Scotti on Star Trek) The STOP_WATCH DOES NOT LIE!! Get the Picture now? Oh! and I forgot, as far as the lights, You don't dump the clutch on the Green Light, You dump on the LAST YELLOW! It takes That last split second before the Machine starts Moving forward and Cuts the Timer Light. NOT so soon as to 'red Light'. The guy who waits until the Green is left in the others' exhaust.
Incident 2) The TRUE scenario! Hayward California, I just got off work on West Winton, stopped at a red light, in the Trans-Am. I was in the right lane of 2, to continue forward, once the light turn Green. Low and behold, This guy pulls up in the 'Right turn only lane', and stops, he's going to jump forward and cut Me off, in the Intersection. He Thinks! He's in One of those Expensive Porsches, I MEAN Real EXPENSIVE Porsches!! A Turbo Something, kinda rounded, looks like a t*rd, boys with Small P***** buy them, think they get Girls.(They might get Girls, but they Don't get the Women)
Anyway...the Light Turns GREEN. Yes!! This time I'am Taking off in FIRST, High Pressure Fuel Pump-ON! I have a Surprise for You! We BOTH go for it. In an Explosion of Torque I took Him by On car Length, halfway into the Intersection! "Blew his SH** Into the Wind!!" If he hadn't backed-off in time, he would have taken out the fire hydrant on the next corner. I'am laughing the best laugh of my Lifetime, watching him in My rearview Mirror, Pounding, Pounding his fist into the dashboard of his 'second place' little Porsche. Praises to a 42 Pound Flywheel! I launched at near 7000. Just one race of 100's in 2 Plus Decades.
Incident 3) TRUE SCENERIO: This was NOT a 'Standing Start'! Warren Freeway, Oakland California, 2:00AM in the Morning. I've been out Cruising all Night, my brother in the next seat. We're Cruising easy heading home about 65 MPH. Don't want to get 'Pulled Over'. Coming onto the freeway at the on-ramp we just passed, an Impala. It catches up to us, side by side, Revs the Engine Loud! I'am thinking WHY NOT, This is what we're here for! Together, we Both punch it for 'All she's got'. Pedal to the metal, Go for Broke! NO LETTING UP!! YES! MR 'ROCKET', I'am IN FOURTH GEAR!!! I don't have a Fifth. We got fast! Really Fast! Scary Fast! My Speedo was over 140 and the Dual 390's were still Making power with the tach reading 8200. He was still with Me, must have had a BIG BLOCK and gears. Nose to Nose, he might have even started pulling ahead by an Inch! I was starting to think...am I going to be the one to Chicken-Out? When, His Engine decided for us, and Blew-Up. I wasn't looking to see sparks or smoke, but the Noise was Incredible! Then I backed Off. In the Dim light of the Freeway in the rearview mirror, before getting over the hill and out of site, I watched as 3 Blacks exited their vehicle with their fists waving in the air. I'am sure one May have been flipping Me off. I wasn't going to stop and help, You pay your dues and you race. Win or loose. I'am reminded of this incident everytime I hear the line in that Bruce Springstein tune..."The Highway's Lined with Broken Heroes on a Last Chance Power Try".
In over 20 Years of Street Racing in that Trans-Am 400, I was Never defeated in 100's of races. That's what I built the Car for. Except just one single time in Oakland, a 454 Camaro took Me off the Line, a un-planned, coincidental meeting at a red light! My Engine 'Aborted' as I had 'Forgotten' to switch-over from the Low Pressure Fuel Pump to the High Pressure. Never met him again for a re-match.
I Have been called a Liar Many, Many times in My life. I'll be 64 in November. I don't listen to it anymore. I haven't told these experiences very often an not in a long time. I've run into 100's of guys like that. They know everything. They bench race. They tell Me what Can't be done! They talk all their BS, they Do Calculations on a Calculator, pronounce what they think is Impossible and repeat some 'Experts' Theories, and Talk and Talk some more! I only deal in the Facts! And the Fact is, I went Out and PROVED IT!!
Oh! one More thing about 'bringing the Nose off the Ground', It's Much easier to Do after you install a 'Torque Chain', it's A MUST!. I recommend not Smaller than 3/8" Links. You Don't know what a Torque Chain IS for, or where it goes? And you call yourself a 'Racecar Driver'!
To settle the question of 'Never using Fourth Gear'. The ONLY time I didn't use 4th was when I did the 0-100 MPH time. Yes, I started in First, took second, third, and took THIRD all the way too 100MPH on the Speedo, Just as the Tach needle crossed over Redline. 5.0 Seconds. 2 Shifts. 3.90 Gears 35.0 Inch Tires. First was Not wound out, it was used just to get rolling, to get into second as soon as possible. Second was wound out past redline. I Believe the redline was 7500-8000 on that Pontiac 400. A True race engine. Solid, Strong, all the Rigidity Parts. Yes! I took the risk of Blowing Her Up.
And one most important thing is that Trans-Am was Drastically 'Weight Stripped'. Around 2200-2300 lbs. 525 HP. Everything that was not making power, was taken off, except the Brakes.
Still Confused Rocket? Doug? Now I'am Laughing!
quote:I wish that someone would dyno their engine after a new build and then chassis dyno their car afte
Been done. Several times IIRC.
That is why we have come to accept the 20% - 25% figure.
Larry
Well...Now that "We're Friends"!!!quote:Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
The Rocket Scientist is Confused??
I don't blame you. Now I'am going to spell IT out for You. When I'am done you'll be re-calibrating your BS Meter, Cause I 'ain't' heading 'Out the Front Door' anymore, although, I now, consider you to be a Friend. Oh, by the way.. you mis-spelled 'Fourth'!
I was writing about 3 Different and Separate (By Years)Incidences.
Incident 1) The Second Gear 'Take-Off' would be used at the Dragstrip, against the 'Lights'! As Far as 'Elapsed Times'...Even a Genious should Know, that the 'Clock' is Also Running on the Guy sitting there Burning Rubber, twiddling his thumbs, just waiting for the tires to lock-up, While the guy leaving in Second gear is MOVING almost Instantly! Did YOU even read this?? As Much "I canna Break the Laws of Physics Cap'n" (Scotti on Star Trek) The STOP_WATCH DOES NOT LIE!! Get the Picture now? Oh! and I forgot, as far as the lights, You don't dump the clutch on the Green Light, You dump on the LAST YELLOW! It takes That last split second before the Machine starts Moving forward and Cuts the Timer Light. NOT so soon as to 'red Light'. The guy who waits until the Green is left in the others' exhaust.
Incident 2) The TRUE scenario! Hayward California, I just got off work on West Winton, stopped at a red light, in the Trans-Am. I was in the right lane of 2, to continue forward, once the light turn Green. Low and behold, This guy pulls up in the 'Right turn only lane', and stops, he's going to jump forward and cut Me off, in the Intersection. He Thinks! He's in One of those Expensive Porsches, I MEAN Real EXPENSIVE Porsches!! A Turbo Something, kinda rounded, looks like a t*rd, boys with Small P***** buy them, think they get Girls.(They might get Girls, but they Don't get the Women)
Anyway...the Light Turns GREEN. Yes!! This time I'am Taking off in FIRST, High Pressure Fuel Pump-ON! I have a Surprise for You! We BOTH go for it. In an Explosion of Torque I took Him by On car Length! "Blew his SH** Into the Wind!!" If he hadn't backed-off in time, he would have taken out the fire hydrant on the next corner. I'am laughing the best laugh of my Lifetime, watching him in My rearview Mirror, Pounding, Pounding his fist into the dashboard of his 'second place' little Porsche. Praises to a 42 Pound Flywheel! Just one race of 100's in 2 Plus Decades.
Incident 3) TRUE SCENERIO: This was NOT a 'Standing Start'! Warren Freeway, Oakland California, 2:00AM in the Morning. I've been out Cruising all Night, my brother in the next seat. We're Cruising easy heading home about 65 MPH. Don't want to get 'Pulled Over'. Coming onto the freeway at the on-ramp we just passed, an Impala. It catches up to us, side by side, Revs the Engine Loud! I'am thinking WHY NOT, This is what we're here for! Together, we Both punch it for 'All she's got'. Pedal to the metal, Go for Broke! NO LETTING UP!! YES! MR 'ROCKET', I'am IN FOURTH GEAR!!! I don't have a Fifth. We got fast! Really Fast! Scary Fast! My Speedo was over 140 and the Dual 390's were still Making power with the tach reading 8200. He was still with Me, must have had a BIB BLOCK and gears. Nose to Nose, he might have even started pulling ahead by an Inch! I was starting to think...an I going to be the one to Chicken-Out? When, His Engine decided for us, and Blew-Up. I wasn't looking to see sparks or smoke, but the Noise was Incredible! Then I backed Off. In the Dim light of the Freeway in the rearview mirror, before getting over the hill and out of site, I watched as 3 Blacks exited their vehicle with their fists waving in the air. I'am sure one May have been flipping Me off. I wasn't going to stop and help, You pay your dues and you race. Win or loose. I'am reminded of this incident everytime I hear the line in that Bruce Springstein tune..."The Highway's Lined with Broken Heroes on a Last Chance Power Try".
In over 20 Years of Street Racing in that Trans-Am 400, I was Never defeated in 100's of races. That's what I built the Car for. Except just one single time on in Oakland, a 454 Camaro took Me off the Line, a un-planned, coincidental meeting at a red light! I had 'Forgotten' to switch-over from the Low Pressure Fuel Pump to the High Pressure. Never met him again for a re-match.
I Have been called a Liar Many, Many times in My life. I'll be 64 in November. I don't listen to it anymore. I've run into 100's of guys like that. They know everything. They bench race. They tell Me what Can't be done! They talk all their BS, thay Talk and Talk! I went Out a PROVED IT!!
Oh! one More thing about 'bringing the Nose off the Ground', It's Much easier to Do after you install a 'Torque Chain', it's A MUST!. I recommend not Smaller than 3/8" Links. You Don't know what a Torque Chain IS for, or where it goes? And you call yourself a 'Racecar Driver'!
Still Confused Rocket? Doug? Now I'am Laughing!
...Does this mean I'm on the highly coveted Marlin Jack Christmas Card Mailing List & also receive 25% OFF ALL Marlin Jack machined goods?! 
COUNT ME IN!!!
I once received a Christmas card from Doug...Even though Doug knows I'm an Atheist, it had "Postage Due" on the outside & a two year old stale cookie inside
...MarkMy love is unconditional...Ohhhhhh SORRY!!!...WRONG PERSON!!!...Markquote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:quote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
In drag racing, in order to have a low elapsed time, you need torque multiplication in first gear.
The guide is to multiply the first gear ratio times the final drive ratio.
You want that number to be somewhere between about 11 and 15.
The Pantera has a first gear ratio of 2.20. The same as a GM t-10 does. The product of the rear and first gear is 9.284.
As such the quarter mile times will pretty much match a 65 GT350. It ran 14.8, 14.9. Just what the stock Pantera was timed at.
If you look at what Hall did, installed the 5.38 final drive, it produces a product of 11.836.
Compare that to a Mustang and Camaros with a 2.32 first (2.20 GM), 4.88 rears were the norm and probably the minimum to make the car run, those runs are pretty much 11's, sometimes dipping into the 10s? 11.3 is the ratio multiplication factor there.
The horsepower comes in for the trap speeds but it is ET's that win races.
It isn't necessarily the rear end ratio, it is the product of first gear times the rear.
Look at the new 6 speed ZF Butmore built. What is first gear? (hint, 3.27) What is the final drive ratio? (hint 4.22)
Those ratios are necessary to have a car run in current super car times of 0-60, 1/4 mile.
It isn't me. It's the physics of the situation.
Talk to the drag racers. They probably can explain it better than I?
Did you NOT read Marlin Jack's..."Secrets to Drag Racing"
You START IN SECOND GEAR!...ONLY SHIFT ONCE into Third gear!!!
What is this blasphemy you are espousing???!!
Talking about scientific FIRST gear Ratios & 6 SPEED transmissions???!!!
Did you NOT read the "King of the Mountain" post??!!
Your glass MUST be 1/2 full & cracked & teetering on the edge of the table with a young toddler positioned directly underneath!...Mark
I know...can you find it in you heart to forgive me?
I agree with Marlin!
Let's all get together for beers, and talk about our cars!
Rocky
Ps. I really liked how he slipped in the Loose Bedsprings line in his post. Great stories!
Let's all get together for beers, and talk about our cars!
Rocky
Ps. I really liked how he slipped in the Loose Bedsprings line in his post. Great stories!
quote:Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
What are You Guys SMOKING?? Give Me Some!!
Sure, Discounts all around! NOT!
You had to go and 'De-Fuse' Me.
Seriously, You two act like your at a Party.
We otta all hook-up with George for drinks, Sometime.
You had better call him and tell him we are all coming?
Oh, tell him to break out the lava lamps.
My new ebay fav of the week. "completely rebuilt into a full roller, with the most aggressive Ford factory race cam available, and has around 300 miles on it since. It is estimated by Ford specs to produce over 500 horsepower"
Thats quite the rebuild when its still covered with dirt.
I doubt that you will get 500hp with an Edelbrock intake and any configuration of the stock exhausts. Even the GTS headers.
The header tubes are the wrong size, the wrong length and essentially have no collectors. They really are just another form of less restrictive "log" manifolds.
The original ANSA mufflers are horsepower killers. They gotta' go.
You can't be getting any significant scavaging without collectors. They need to be 3" diameter by 6" long. For 500hp the primaries need to be 2" x about 36" long.
You can only get those in a Pantera with up and over headers. If you do that, then they might as well be 180s's. I've never seen anyone build those into a Pantera that were under the car. Nothing is impossible but there must be a lot of slip tubes on the primaries in order to get them installed into the car? Yikes. The person who built them makes my list of genius'.
The camshaft also needs to have quite a bit of lift and duration. It's very aggressive.
PROBABLY around .600 lift, 244 to 248 duration at .050, around 74 degrees overlap, solid or hydraulic roller.
550hp is pretty easy with Webers (on iron heads) but you aren't going to want to drive it around town everyday, not unless it's a pro-rally car, BUT yes, it isn't hard to get those hp numbers.
Torque would come in at right around 500 ft-lbs @ 5,000 rpms.
To get that from Webers you need to run them "old school" with lots of reversion blowing back through the carbs. That means no air cleaners on them. The reversion will make them catch fire on the second start up after they are good and soaking wet with atomized fuel.
Webers put on a "light show" in the dark. You can see the cylinders igniting right through the velocity stacks. The combination of fuel soaked filters and the ignition will light the filters up immediately.
The "Comp Cams" or "Inglese" "Weber carb cam" (CC makes the cam for Inglese) will loose about 100hp right out of the box. It's really cut to eliminate this issue so that you can run air filters over the carbs.
There certainly are other "special custom cut cam profiles" cut for those carbs and I certainly haven't tried those BUT the point of them is to give you around .588 lift and cut the overlap down to 28 degrees to reduce the reversion. You need scavenging effect with the Cleveland heads to make them work. That cam profile kills that. That right there is your 100hp loss.
The "Weber" cam runs smooth with nice idle characteristics but it cuts the crispness and instant throttle response right out of the engine. IMO, it's just a for show cam for the Gucci loafer set that want to show their Lamborghini buddies that Fords can be "cool too"?
A good set of aluminum "high port" heads will give you another 50 hp over the iron.
There are more than a few of these combinations right here in this group running around right now. Right in the 600 to 650 hp area AND they have dyno sheets to prove it.
IF you recognized the engine components needed on the engine you were looking at, you wouldn't need to have a dyno sheet. You can make 500hp "falling off a log" with these engines.
The question is how much more and what do you want to put up with to get it.
Notice also that when you look at dyno sheets of various Clevelands it seems difficult to find two engines exactly the same.
Of course, this is just my opinion. An opinion concluded from 40 years of running different combinations. Sure there are combinations I never tried or some I did and missed the significance of. No argument.
Is this a worthless old school opinion? To some, sure, BUT look around, THIS IS AN OLD SCHOOL POWER PLANT.
No matter though because you will develop your own and certainly others here have different view points. You are not going to be given "THE" combination for free by anyone.
You NEED to try your own combinations. "Your mileage can and will vary".
Mine are derived at from a misspent and obviously perverted childhood and adult lifestyle. Many Saturday nights (too many actually) spent on getting an engine ready for Sunday. Guilty as charged.
I've got enough power and enough compromises now. Why keep searching for a new batch? Think about it. Follow the money. Major disagreers are likely trying to sell you their combinations? It's like Wendy's saying their breakfast combination is better than McDonalds?
Maybe so but I just put a lot of ketchup on all of it. Then it doesn't matter much any more?
...oh, and what's the big deal with having to have 500hp anyway? 499 is no good? The shame, the shame...cover your eyes!
Aren't those chromed MOROSO valve covers worth 50 hp right there? I hear that the yellow Panteras are faster than any of the other colors? Hum? Food for thought? Always check on that first before running for pink slips?
The header tubes are the wrong size, the wrong length and essentially have no collectors. They really are just another form of less restrictive "log" manifolds.
The original ANSA mufflers are horsepower killers. They gotta' go.
You can't be getting any significant scavaging without collectors. They need to be 3" diameter by 6" long. For 500hp the primaries need to be 2" x about 36" long.
You can only get those in a Pantera with up and over headers. If you do that, then they might as well be 180s's. I've never seen anyone build those into a Pantera that were under the car. Nothing is impossible but there must be a lot of slip tubes on the primaries in order to get them installed into the car? Yikes. The person who built them makes my list of genius'.
The camshaft also needs to have quite a bit of lift and duration. It's very aggressive.
PROBABLY around .600 lift, 244 to 248 duration at .050, around 74 degrees overlap, solid or hydraulic roller.
550hp is pretty easy with Webers (on iron heads) but you aren't going to want to drive it around town everyday, not unless it's a pro-rally car, BUT yes, it isn't hard to get those hp numbers.
Torque would come in at right around 500 ft-lbs @ 5,000 rpms.
To get that from Webers you need to run them "old school" with lots of reversion blowing back through the carbs. That means no air cleaners on them. The reversion will make them catch fire on the second start up after they are good and soaking wet with atomized fuel.
Webers put on a "light show" in the dark. You can see the cylinders igniting right through the velocity stacks. The combination of fuel soaked filters and the ignition will light the filters up immediately.
The "Comp Cams" or "Inglese" "Weber carb cam" (CC makes the cam for Inglese) will loose about 100hp right out of the box. It's really cut to eliminate this issue so that you can run air filters over the carbs.
There certainly are other "special custom cut cam profiles" cut for those carbs and I certainly haven't tried those BUT the point of them is to give you around .588 lift and cut the overlap down to 28 degrees to reduce the reversion. You need scavenging effect with the Cleveland heads to make them work. That cam profile kills that. That right there is your 100hp loss.
The "Weber" cam runs smooth with nice idle characteristics but it cuts the crispness and instant throttle response right out of the engine. IMO, it's just a for show cam for the Gucci loafer set that want to show their Lamborghini buddies that Fords can be "cool too"?
A good set of aluminum "high port" heads will give you another 50 hp over the iron.
There are more than a few of these combinations right here in this group running around right now. Right in the 600 to 650 hp area AND they have dyno sheets to prove it.
IF you recognized the engine components needed on the engine you were looking at, you wouldn't need to have a dyno sheet. You can make 500hp "falling off a log" with these engines.
The question is how much more and what do you want to put up with to get it.
Notice also that when you look at dyno sheets of various Clevelands it seems difficult to find two engines exactly the same.
Of course, this is just my opinion. An opinion concluded from 40 years of running different combinations. Sure there are combinations I never tried or some I did and missed the significance of. No argument.
Is this a worthless old school opinion? To some, sure, BUT look around, THIS IS AN OLD SCHOOL POWER PLANT.
No matter though because you will develop your own and certainly others here have different view points. You are not going to be given "THE" combination for free by anyone.
You NEED to try your own combinations. "Your mileage can and will vary".
Mine are derived at from a misspent and obviously perverted childhood and adult lifestyle. Many Saturday nights (too many actually) spent on getting an engine ready for Sunday. Guilty as charged.
I've got enough power and enough compromises now. Why keep searching for a new batch? Think about it. Follow the money. Major disagreers are likely trying to sell you their combinations? It's like Wendy's saying their breakfast combination is better than McDonalds?
Maybe so but I just put a lot of ketchup on all of it. Then it doesn't matter much any more?
...oh, and what's the big deal with having to have 500hp anyway? 499 is no good? The shame, the shame...cover your eyes!
Aren't those chromed MOROSO valve covers worth 50 hp right there? I hear that the yellow Panteras are faster than any of the other colors? Hum? Food for thought? Always check on that first before running for pink slips?
Here's a pic of my cam sheet.
My engine has 10.5-1 compression (all specs given to me by the seller and the ad for the car, which so far the information he's given has been bunk) BUT, it also has Roush/Yates C3L heads, and IR's with EFI, HUGE headers with collectors, and I'vebeen told my engine is in the 600-650 range.
Just changed out the rockers for new ones (the old ones were in bad shape.
Here's a pic of the injection.
Haven't dynoed the car yet (haven't had it running long enough yet lol, but the butt-dyno says it has every bit of 600-plus hp.
Now, today, I doubt it's making that much power unless I take it to above 8000 where the previous owner used to run this engine reglarly, I'm just stating what I'been told about my engine when I asked those who know more than myself.
My engine has 10.5-1 compression (all specs given to me by the seller and the ad for the car, which so far the information he's given has been bunk) BUT, it also has Roush/Yates C3L heads, and IR's with EFI, HUGE headers with collectors, and I'vebeen told my engine is in the 600-650 range.
Just changed out the rockers for new ones (the old ones were in bad shape.
Here's a pic of the injection.
Haven't dynoed the car yet (haven't had it running long enough yet lol, but the butt-dyno says it has every bit of 600-plus hp.
Now, today, I doubt it's making that much power unless I take it to above 8000 where the previous owner used to run this engine reglarly, I'm just stating what I'been told about my engine when I asked those who know more than myself.
Attachments
Images (1)
cam sheet
Attachments
Images (1)
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
cam sheet
Is that a solid roller cam?
I believe the hp number. That's right around very similar engines have dynoed at.
The specs on the engine automatically put it into that range.
I see "legal" vintage racing engines regularly.
Ironically the dynoed (documented) 550hp engines don't even run in the middle of the pack.
The one I watch the most is Curt Voght of Cobra Automotive. He runs a 292 in a 66 GT350 that he admits to 600hp.
He says I am immagining the rpm and hp I think it runs at because I am going by the sound and he says the x pipe make it sound like more.
I said about 680hp at about 8,500 rpms.
He actually put an in car camera in the car that shows the tach never goes over 8,200 rpm just to prove I'm wrong. Why should he think my opinion is so influential? Beats me but talk to the rest of the pack that tries to keep up? The consensus is that they tend to agree with me? LMAO on this one?
What they are pissed off at is that Curt built their engines for them, titanium connecting rods and all!
Do they seriously think he'd sell them the biggest hp engine he can build? Get real!
This all cracks me up! I luv it!
...oh, forgot, my engine builder who competes against him calls him 'CURT THE WEASEL!" You don't put that many car lengths on the competition with only another 50hp... doesn't happen like that.
Ain't love grand?
The specs on the engine automatically put it into that range.
I see "legal" vintage racing engines regularly.
Ironically the dynoed (documented) 550hp engines don't even run in the middle of the pack.
The one I watch the most is Curt Voght of Cobra Automotive. He runs a 292 in a 66 GT350 that he admits to 600hp.
He says I am immagining the rpm and hp I think it runs at because I am going by the sound and he says the x pipe make it sound like more.
I said about 680hp at about 8,500 rpms.
He actually put an in car camera in the car that shows the tach never goes over 8,200 rpm just to prove I'm wrong. Why should he think my opinion is so influential? Beats me but talk to the rest of the pack that tries to keep up? The consensus is that they tend to agree with me? LMAO on this one?
What they are pissed off at is that Curt built their engines for them, titanium connecting rods and all!
Do they seriously think he'd sell them the biggest hp engine he can build? Get real!
This all cracks me up! I luv it!
...oh, forgot, my engine builder who competes against him calls him 'CURT THE WEASEL!" You don't put that many car lengths on the competition with only another 50hp... doesn't happen like that.
Ain't love grand?
quote:Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:quote:I wish that someone would dyno their engine after a new build and then chassis dyno their car afte
Been done. Several times IIRC.
That is why we have come to accept the 20% - 25% figure.
Id like to see some if anyone can provide
Will
Larry
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Here's a pic of my cam sheet.
My engine has 10.5-1 compression (all specs given to me by the seller and the ad for the car, which so far the information he's given has been bunk) BUT, it also has Roush/Yates C3L heads, and IR's with EFI, HUGE headers with collectors, and I'vebeen told my engine is in the 600-650 range.
Just changed out the rockers for new ones (the old ones were in bad shape.
Here's a pic of the injection.
Haven't dynoed the car yet (haven't had it running long enough yet lol, but the butt-dyno says it has every bit of 600-plus hp.
Now, today, I doubt it's making that much power unless I take it to above 8000 where the previous owner used to run this engine reglarly, I'm just stating what I'been told about my engine when I asked those who know more than myself.
Hello 'Cobra Snake' Mike!
First of All! That is one Beautiful 'Rig' You've got set-up there!! I'am a little Envious, as I'am sure others are, too.
I absolutely Agree, and believe You are Easily Pushing 600 Horsepower, and More!
That being said, and now that Your talking 8000 RPM, I feel compelled to advise you of a fact, you may Not be aware of. And Even though I may cause you more stress, and after All the Pain you have Suffered through, for this I Apologize in Advance!
Being a Machinist, 'Cursed' with an Eye for detail, I noticed this, and held back telling you, ever since you posted pictures of your Engines' Underside with 'Oil Pump', on your thread, 'Call for Help....'.
And with talk of blasts to over 8000 RPM, I'am telling you Now!
Although 'They' Are STUDDED, All that Power has been Built upon a '2 Bolt Block'! Now some may tell you, 'it makes No difference'. Maybe IT Does! And if the 'previous owner' says they have taken Her over that speed, I am nobody to contest that. The Fact would certainly be testimony to the Strength of 'Studded Mains'.
Now You know! I had to be the 'Bad Guy' and
Rain On Your Parade. And now you have One More Thing to worry about, the next time you take your Cat out to Race. And want to test for the 'Outer Limits' of RPM.
I've done My job. Maybe it'll save you continued Heartache.
All the Best!
There are a fair amount of Panteras in the Bay Area and I think it would be pretty interesting to setup a dyno day. Everybody could post up a picture of their engine, maybe a couple specs and what they think it will dyno at (rwhp). The person that misses by the most buys everybody else lunch?
500hp with a 6000rpm pill.
500hp with a 6000rpm pill.
Thanks for the advice Marlin, I appreciate it, and the advice I get from everyone here.
In my care, this engine won't ever see 8000rpm's.
first of all because my tach only works about 10% of the time, so I wouldn't know it even if I DID rev it that high lol.
Secondly, now that I know as much about this engine as I do, I'm going to just drive it, even run it hard sometimes, and hope (it should at this point) it stays together until next year, when I'll be going completely through the engine and rebuilding it.
The car was sold to me by someone who told me many things that were not true, not even close to true, and I've done nothing but work on, and spend money on this engine just to finally get it to hopefully a reliable condition, so I can drive and enjoy it.
Because of this, I can't assume anything about this engine,, or to restate that, I can assume the worst about everything on this engine.
In either case, all this information is out there now, and my car is devalued until I rebuild or install a new engine, so if/when I ever decide to sell the car, I can get what it's worth, and the buyer can know what they are buying.
All that said, I JUUUUUUUSSSSTTT finished everything! Changed the oil yesterday, beauty covers are on, the car is ready for touring!
I'm going to go take it for a drive in just a few minutes!
Even though I've only got a few hours of driving time on the car, it is SO MUCH FUN!
People at gas stations always wanting to check it out, thumbs-up all the time from people on the road, it's a hoot!
One of THE best parts about buying my car though is this forum, and the people I've met through this forum.
In my care, this engine won't ever see 8000rpm's.
first of all because my tach only works about 10% of the time, so I wouldn't know it even if I DID rev it that high lol.
Secondly, now that I know as much about this engine as I do, I'm going to just drive it, even run it hard sometimes, and hope (it should at this point) it stays together until next year, when I'll be going completely through the engine and rebuilding it.
The car was sold to me by someone who told me many things that were not true, not even close to true, and I've done nothing but work on, and spend money on this engine just to finally get it to hopefully a reliable condition, so I can drive and enjoy it.
Because of this, I can't assume anything about this engine,, or to restate that, I can assume the worst about everything on this engine.
In either case, all this information is out there now, and my car is devalued until I rebuild or install a new engine, so if/when I ever decide to sell the car, I can get what it's worth, and the buyer can know what they are buying.
All that said, I JUUUUUUUSSSSTTT finished everything! Changed the oil yesterday, beauty covers are on, the car is ready for touring!
I'm going to go take it for a drive in just a few minutes!
Even though I've only got a few hours of driving time on the car, it is SO MUCH FUN!
People at gas stations always wanting to check it out, thumbs-up all the time from people on the road, it's a hoot!
One of THE best parts about buying my car though is this forum, and the people I've met through this forum.
quote:Originally posted by Marlin Jack:quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Here's a pic of my cam sheet.
My engine has 10.5-1 compression (all specs given to me by the seller and the ad for the car, which so far the information he's given has been bunk) BUT, it also has Roush/Yates C3L heads, and IR's with EFI, HUGE headers with collectors, and I'vebeen told my engine is in the 600-650 range.
Just changed out the rockers for new ones (the old ones were in bad shape.
Here's a pic of the injection.
Haven't dynoed the car yet (haven't had it running long enough yet lol, but the butt-dyno says it has every bit of 600-plus hp.
Now, today, I doubt it's making that much power unless I take it to above 8000 where the previous owner used to run this engine reglarly, I'm just stating what I'been told about my engine when I asked those who know more than myself.
Hello 'Cobra Snake' Mike!
First of All! That is one Beautiful 'Rig' You've got set-up there!! I'am a little Envious, as I'am sure others are, too.
I absolutely Agree, and believe You are Easily Pushing 600 Horsepower, and More!
That being said, and now that Your talking 8000 RPM, I feel compelled to advise you of a fact, you may Not be aware of. And Even though I may cause you more stress, and after All the Pain you have Suffered through, for this I Apologize in Advance!
Being a Machinist, 'Cursed' with an Eye for detail, I noticed this, and held back telling you, ever since you posted pictures of your Engines' Underside with 'Oil Pump', on your thread, 'Call for Help....'.
And with talk of blasts to over 8000 RPM, I'am telling you Now!
Although 'They' Are STUDDED, All that Power has been Built upon a '2 Bolt Block'! Now some may tell you, 'it makes No difference'. Maybe IT Does! And if the 'previous owner' says they have taken Her over that speed, I am nobody to contest that. The Fact would certainly be testimony to the Strength of 'Studded Mains'.
Now You know! I had to be the 'Bad Guy' and
Rain On Your Parade. And now you have One More Thing to worry about, the next time you take your Cat out to Race. And want to test for the 'Outer Limits' of RPM.
I've done My job. Maybe it'll save you continued Heartache.
All the Best!
Just got back from a glorious drive. I mixed it up a little, good with bad. It's bill paying day, so I drove around and paid my bills, payed the registration on my truck, and drove all around town in the process.
Stopped by a friend's business, showed him the car. Set off 3 or 4 car alarms driving by looking for parking.
On my way off, I left two rubber burnout strips, just for special effects. I didn't hit 8000, but I probably hit 5000 or 6000 for a second there!
So far, the car is looking like it's back in action (knocking on wood), and I am one happy camper.
Stopped by a friend's business, showed him the car. Set off 3 or 4 car alarms driving by looking for parking.
On my way off, I left two rubber burnout strips, just for special effects. I didn't hit 8000, but I probably hit 5000 or 6000 for a second there!
So far, the car is looking like it's back in action (knocking on wood), and I am one happy camper.
Still not a dyno sheet in sight. Well at least I don't have to worry cos my car is yellow, no need for dyno, we all know it is well over 500 at the treads! One day I will paint it red cos everyone in OZ knows that is worth another 50hp!
well if yellow cars have more horsepowder how about yellow interior should be worth at least 100 hp more,just have guts to do it is worth that much
Mine's white, but yesterday, leaving my friend's house, he gave me the "spinning finger" indication to "light them up" on the way out.
My car has 335 Avon cheater slicks (slick racing tires with just 2 little lines towards the inside edge to make the street legal).
A quick stab at the gas in 1st got the tires spinning and got me just a liiiiitle bit sideways. I grabbed second, and was surprised when the tires broke loose a second time in 2nd, leaving a decent smoke cloud too, and actually had me countertseering a little.
Just a cool confirmation of power, my friend called and said it sounded like 643 horsepower, so there you go. Official results.
My car has 335 Avon cheater slicks (slick racing tires with just 2 little lines towards the inside edge to make the street legal).
A quick stab at the gas in 1st got the tires spinning and got me just a liiiiitle bit sideways. I grabbed second, and was surprised when the tires broke loose a second time in 2nd, leaving a decent smoke cloud too, and actually had me countertseering a little.
Just a cool confirmation of power, my friend called and said it sounded like 643 horsepower, so there you go. Official results.