HI ALL AND HAPPY NEW YEAR.
I am wondering what the general concensus is as far as PANTERA PRICE'S. With the current trend of so many car's being sold out of the
UNITED STATES [due to the weak dollar] and being shipped oversea's or generally exported
out of the U.S. to new owner's HOW [if at all]
will it affect the pricing of our car's?
My personal thought's are: If the current trend continue's we will see the price's going up to
a point where they are still attractive to [foreign] out of U.S. buyer's while at the same time making them less attractive / and more out of reach for the would be U.S. buyer's.
What's your opinion's???
JOHN.
Original Post
I think the Pantera is more of a bargain than ever. The prices have only gone up very slightly and the US dollar has dropped much more. Personally, I think the whole collector car market is due for another major melt-down, but Panteras haven't gone stupid like so much Detroit iron, so I don't expect any big drop in prices for us. As you observe, the big money now is in Europe and Asia, not here.
MARK I agree with you, however i hope that the DETROIT IRON doesn't melt down to soon as i have a 69 "R" code MACH 1 i will be looking to sell in the spring. It should be VERY interesting to see what kind of price's the BARRETT JACKSON auction bring's this year!
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
Personally, I think the whole collector car market is due for another major melt-down, but Panteras haven't gone stupid like so much Detroit iron, so I don't expect any big drop in prices for us.


I agree, there is some "dark clouds" in the collector car market.

Buying a classic car only for investment reasons, is the wrong reason for me. I guess the most of us on the forum bought a Pantera because we wanted one (badly..) - not only as a investment.
I think Pantera prices will go through the roof, but mainly because the dollr will be worthless. You will see 125,000 dollar Panteras but $45,000 Honda Accords. Panteras will be about 10,000 euros and guys over there will buy them as parts cars. Meanwhile over here we will be ridding bicycles to work at walmart.
Detom, HI. You are certainly an optimist aren't you? [Just kidding] But seriously yes the dollar is taking a beating, which bring's up another question....
What is the general concensus as to why the dollar is so weak? Yes inflation and especially the price of fossil fuel [in the form of gasoline price's / home heating oil price's and of course all the add on surcharge's from the various companie's [re] the electric company
etc] My 2 cent's worth [i don't mean to sound like a hater but!] is that a lot of the problem's can be attributed to the MILLION'S of illegal's working off the book's for cash money
while the [greedy] companie's that employ them reap all the benefit's of their labor and not having to pay any taxe's / medical or any other type of insurance for them [who pay's for this when they need medical help etc??
YOU AND ME THAT'S WHO.
Add the fact that a very large percentage of these illegal's are sending MOST of their earning's out of the country, thereby draining money from our economy because the government has to print more money to replace that money which in turn make's it worth that much less.
SORRY for the rant, but it is what it is?
ANY OTHER OPINION'S?
With Italian style, high performance American muscle reliability, and rarity you would think means more value down the road. As long as the style spells "wow exotic", then I think prices will be high. It also depends on right place at the right time, right person. This is all just crystal ball stuff...I recall in high school my hillbilly upstate NY buddies driving around drunk and crashing into things with their Hemi Cudas, and driving on the salty snowy roads (if they only knew then what we know now). In my opinion advertising our cars doesn't do much either, but drive it around, and you see people drule and money talk comes pouring out. I think when people see our cars in person it blows their minds and the myths and bad rap goes out the window. I would think cars that are 100% stock and those that are on the other extreme of highly modified well built cars will bring the money...lets face it, some day we will all need nursing home money Frowner, I look forward to having Bambi looking after me Smiler

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DELOREANS, HI. If indeed BARRETT JACKSON has fewer car's on auction this year, personally I think that is due to their [accepting only car's with NO RESERVE] policy. With the economy the way it is and the price's being what they are [off] it would be very easy for seller's
to get "screwed" ESPECIALLY if they got a less than desireable time slot for the sale. Maybe the seller's are wising up to the
'no reserve policy".
JOHN
In the short run, regardless of what the rest of the market does, the Panteras will keep rising.

They are drastically "undervalued" compared to just about everything else.

Cars are going overseas becasue of that and the dollar valuation. I'm not a believer in cheap dollars. It doesn't help me with anything that I want.

As far as the world economy, the US is going to be more stable then most other places. Mainland China is the wildcard because of the size of the population and what even meeger gains do to the rest of the world.
The major threat to the dollar is what oil is traded in. If more and more countries trade it in Euros then a Mexican Peso will eventually be worth more.

Keep in mind that the only people that will complain that a Pantera costs $150,000 for a driver are the people who don't have one. I think the people that stuffed 454 Chevies in and cut the roofs off to fit their surf boards in, will also be unhappy.

Just my 1.5 cents worth.

Wow! I made that many posts? I should get a life!
People are unsure/afraid of things they don't know about. Very few people know about Panteras.
They have a bad reputation. Electrical, cooling, RUST....They are looked down upon by most purebread Italian marques. They are ignored by the Detroit iron crown because they're Italian. They are the bastard children of the car world.
It will be tough for our cars to rise in value because you can now buy a low mileage Viper or Z06 for $30k. Our beautiful cats cannot compete with modern technology.
I don't care though. If the value was that of Hemi-Cuda, then I wouldn't have been able to buy one (actually 2).
My 2 cents
In the 30 plus years I've owned a Pantera, Pantera owners have always claimed the cars are way underpriced. Then when the price starts to go up, they complain that they are getting too expensive for us "average Joe" owners.

IMHO, it would be nice to see some appreciation; it would help justify some of the cost of restoring the cars which, in turn, would help keep our vendors going, etc.

The truth for me, and probably for most of us, is that I love the car in spite of, and because of, its faults. I don't want a Z06 or a Viper. In real dollars, my car is probably only worth, today, about as much as I paid for it way back when. This means all the money I've spent restoring/maintaining/insuring the car is an unrecovered cost. But I don't care, I plan to keep driving mine for as long as it takes for prices to go up.
I'm with you, Jeff. I would have to keep my car for another 100 yrs to see its price rise to match what I've invested in it. But fortunately I didn't do it for the money.

As for Vipers and Z06s, they're nice reliable performance cars and are great fun to drive. But they don't come close to the Pantera. Neither does anything else.

Like a friend of mine said while scanning all the Ferraris and Lambos at Monterrey "...they look like a box of Smarties spilled out in the grass - all exactly the same, just in different colors."
""As for Vipers and Z06s, they're nice reliable performance cars and are great fun to drive. But they don't come close to the Pantera. Neither does anything else""

I agree with you guys. I love my Pantera, but the original question relates to why our cars have not gone up like other cars. Most people (that don't own a Pantera) don't feel the same way as us. That's why they they go out and buy the Vipers and Vettes for much less money, IMHO.
The largest contributing factor to the value of the cars over time is a very active, visual club like SAAC.
It is harder to do with basically only a couple of models but things like this forum help.

If you think about the Vegas run then you know that there is solid support for at least the Pantera and the Mangusta.

Publicity at a national level helps a lot. Car values are like currency values in that they are only backed by consumer confidence.

The greater of the illusion that there is something there the better.

There really isn't anything on the right coast to come close to Vegas. The Pocono event doesn't get much press.

The solution is just a lot of little things over time and there is no way to add race history to the marque.

Detomaso should have been nicer to Henry way back. After all if you look at it, it has been Fords money all along that sponsered the successes in the Ford family.
This is a great time to have or purchase a PANTERA. Our out of the USA, brothers see their value and are ready to pay up, for the finest examples. You can still ferret out very nice cars that need little other than cosmetics, because the owner over spent and needs to sell. Current example; 7 year project with over $75k spent purchased for $35k! My $.02 , you don't plan on selling high, you negotiate better. JD
It's not just the Pantera that doesent bring the right money. Look at the Jensen Healy, Delorean, Bricklin. They are all hybreds that don't bring the same kind of money as equivilent factory cars. I bought mine because thats what I wanted, not to make money on. What ever I lose in money I more that have made up in fun.
Richard T.
I don't think those cars have any real world comparison to a Pantera. I doubt any of them will ever be very valuable, desired or respected.

quote:
Originally posted by RichardT:
It's not just the Pantera that doesent bring the right money. Look at the Jensen Healy, Delorean, Bricklin. They are all hybreds that don't bring the same kind of money as equivilent factory cars. I bought mine because thats what I wanted, not to make money on. What ever I lose in money I more that have made up in fun.
Richard T.
We can call them 'POWERED BY FORD' cars; COBRAS, TIGERS, MANGUSTAS, PANTERAS, AND BRICKLINS. All share similar heritage. 1st is at it's zenith now. Next is just showing life. The next is coming on strong (because most have few changes). Next needs more press and will be hurt by over personification, and last is the next LAMBORGHINI MUIRA. JD
Did I read that correctly?

The Bricklin is the next Miura? That's a pretty radical assertion that I can't see happening because the Miura is really low and sexy, has an Italian V12, has lineage and rarity (765 vs 3000 or so). I think it's a pretty cool car,but I wouldn't hoard them as investments any more than I would a Pantera.
First of all if we want recognition we have to get out and drive the cars. Too many are sleeping in garages and scared to go on an outing with them. It's funny no one thinks about their daily driver breaking down or doing a couple of hundred miles with them, but when it comes to the Pantera too far,too this too that. If WE don't take them out to be noticed how can we expect others to desire something they never saw? For 2008 I suggest on the east coast at least, to be at Pocono, Kingston, Niagra Falls and what ever other events there are and show these wonderful machines Rob6145
Well, I don't post much. Read alot of posts. So, I guess I may have earned the right to go a little longer here.

Pantera prices and value ....

1) The post started with a comment on The American dollar: The dollar cannot keep its value when the U.S. runs an annual deficit of between 500 Bllion and 1 Trillion dollars. When the U.S. borrows money like that (to finance a war in Iraq) it doesn't help the currency's value. The price of oil and other commodities have not gone up as much as the US greenback has gone down because those commodities have been traditionally priced in US dollars.

The lower priced US dollar has been good to those like me who buy DeTomaso parts. It makes it more affordable.

2) Investing in automobiles: When I look at the bottom line, if I wanted an investment I would have looked elsewhere. I remember watching an interview with Reggie Jackson (Car guy, Ex NY Yankee slugger, Mr. October etc.) at a Barret-Jackson in the late 80's or early 90's. His advice rang deep with me: "Buy the car you want because you like and want to drive the car..."

3) A hobby: Hobbies are not for the monetary value but for the enjoyment. I'm on the same side as deeb, jeff6559 et al. - I probably will never get the money back for the amount I have put into my car (just like any other of my hobbies) - Mainly because it will never be sold in my lifetime.

4) Reputation: I am with you 4NHOTROD. ALL DeTomaso's to my eye, are among the most beautiful Italian cars (Vallelunga, Mangusta, Pantera models etc.). Sight unseen, among the average guy, they have NO reputation or a mixed to poor one. As said, people are afraid of the unknown.

I have seen many a car "expert" claim that the Miura was the first mid-engine production car. That is controversial. I believe the DeTomaso Vallelunga was the first. How many know this? How many know that the guy that designed the Mazda Miata used styling cues from the DeTomaso Vallelunga he owned?

Secondly, on a flight from L.A. to Toronto, I had the pleasure to sit beside a well known Hollywood actor and his daughter. I found out that he was a car guy. When I mentioned I had a DeTomaso Pantera his immediate reaction was, "That car is hot to drive in - it didn't have A/C.". It was a reputation DeTomaso earned by putting on the market, cars that were not fully sorted out.

5) I am not sure if a Ford engined car is a major hinderance to value or marque recognition. Lotus used Ford engines in their Elan, Elise, Europa, Esprit ... Shelby used Ford engines in his Cobras. The average guy knows a Lotus, Cobra etc. The issue, in my view is marque/make recognition.

6) There is confusion between make and model. To the average guy is the Pantera a DeTomaso or a Ford? What is a Pantera? We may not be clear on the type of car we talk about. Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW, Lamborghini etc are makes. A Ferrari 355 is a model - as is a BMW M5. Unfortunately some people confuse the two when they talk about a car. Dare I say, there are some NOT very good Ferrari, Mercedes, BMWs etc models out there. But they get lost in the "Make wash" of all Ferraris are .... well Ferraris. There are great Ford cars (GT-40, GT, 69 Boss Mustang, etc.) and some not so great Ford cars.

DeTomaso is not a well known marque. period.

Saying it is a Pantera only gets a "Yes, its a Ford !, Ford sold the cars in 71-74 !". Don't bother trying to explain the confusion over the marque/model - their eyes just glaze over. So, what is a Pantera? To me, I am proud to say it is a DeTomaso. Just as an Espada is a Lamborghini or a Ghibli is a Maserati.

I am with Rob146 here. We need to drive our cars as often as we can. This will help in marque recognition - setting aside model recognition.

7) Finally, I have owned my DeTomaso since 1990. I have to get it appraised often for insurance purposes. I have seen the appraised value rise and fall over the years. AND, I still own the car. I know what I have. I enjoy driving it and all of the pleasure it gives me to own it. It has afforded me the honour of meeting many of you - and that, as the VISA Ad says "Is priceless".
I certainly do respect everyones opinion. I don't tell people what to think or feel. Everybody buys one and keeps one for their own reasons.

I have to say that I don't believe anyone, so don't take it personally, when they make the general statement that "I don't care what it is worth".

When the time comes to move on to another car, for whatever reason, everyone will be trying to finance their new project with obtaining as much from their old love as possible. I've seen this over and over.

Maybe it won't be a falling out of love with the car? Maybe you will have some type of financial emergency where every cent could mean the difference between life and death? Maybe not for you but maybe for someone else that you need to help.

Whether or not you will admit it, you care what it is worth.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Whether or not you will admit it, you care what it is worth.


I have some cars which will never be valuable and I will/have put more money in them then what they are worth....and I still keep an eye on prices. It's just part of what we do.
You are right, I do care what it is worth. A remark off the cuff because I have no intention of selling it. BUT, that is now. In the future who knows? I said the same thing about the camaro I have had for years, but now the time has come to sell it, I am very interested in what it is worth. I intend to use the pantera alot with no interest in keeping a perfect garage queen but if it increases in value while I'm using it I'll be a happy guy Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by andriyko:
>>SNIPPED>>
Well, I don't post much. Read alot of posts. So, I guess I may have earned the right to go a little longer here.

Pantera prices and value ....

4) Reputation: I am with you 4NHOTROD. ALL DeTomaso's to my eye, are among the most beautiful Italian cars (Vallelunga, Mangusta, Pantera models etc.). Sight unseen, among the average guy, they have NO reputation or a mixed to poor one. As said, people are afraid of the unknown.

5) I am not sure if a Ford engined car is a major hinderance to value or marque recognition. Lotus used Ford engines in their Elan, Elise, Europa, Esprit ... Shelby used Ford engines in his Cobras. The average guy knows a Lotus, Cobra etc. The issue, in my view is marque/make recognition.

6) There is confusion between make and model. To the average guy is the Pantera a DeTomaso or a Ford? What is a Pantera? We may not be clear on the type of car we talk about. Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW, Lamborghini etc are makes.

DeTomaso is not a well known marque. period.


I am with Rob146 here. We need to drive our cars as often as we can. This will help in marque recognition - setting aside model recognition.

7) Finally, I have owned my DeTomaso since 1990. I have to get it appraised often for insurance purposes. I have seen the appraised value rise and fall over the years. AND, I still own the car. I know what I have. I enjoy driving it and all of the pleasure it gives me to own it. It has afforded me the honour of meeting many of you - and that, as the VISA Ad says "Is priceless".


I agree and well said. As an addition - and likely an unpopular one - the Pantera was given an early green-light for modification (some required, much not) which made them perhaps the original 'resto rod' but most assuredly NOT an 'original' de Tomaso.

The marque got masked. Markets need a standard value baseline; the Pantera kinda ventured off without one. Nowdays, I think this is why 'original' cars are starting to emerge as value leaders.

I say hold your head up high on the hybrid status, since it has serious value precedents. A Cobra and Tiger are 'hybrids' as would be any Iso (a late restored Grifo brought $225k at auction; more than a few over $100k) or a Monteverdi ("A WHAT???" says the public) as owned by car-guy extraordinairre Robert Lutz, who can buy what he wants. He says it's one of his favorite cars, 'becuase it's so driveable' referring to the servicing aspect.

The Pantera has the spec sheet to make it an investment, but as mentioned, it has gestated well beyond normal expectation.

I don't mind telling the world I paid $31grand for my car, and have put another $20+ in it while in pursuit of the 'hobby' aspect. I've enjoyed it a great deal. Sure, I could've gotten a 'turn key' or even 'better' car on day 1 with a check for same. Even though this mission was not for the money thats' for sure, I DEFINITELY DO CARE what it's worth.

Back on topic: Panteras will rise with the tide of the other 'known' makes or even obscure and highly prized hybrids. And fall right back wtih them, but at a lesser rate all around.

In 1990, I got $52,000 for a high #2 Pantera, just before the 'correction' of the market. In today's dollars, that'd be... well, I'm not that smart, but a lot more than $52grand.

A few Ferraris are touching their 1990 prices again. (MANY ARE NOT TOO) Some have well surpassed (Dinos).

My Pantera gets more looks than my Boxer, gets more questions, more acknowledgments (and I live in a small town) so I optimistically feel the value is "coming". I've been thinking that a while!

Get out there and show your car off. At least that'll raise the value to you. Isn't that what a hobby is?
quote:
Hells bells boys. All it would take is for a single Pantera to be really featured in a movie like Bullitt or gone in sixty seconds and you won't be able to touch a Pantera anywhere for less than a hundred grand.


Absolutely!! And it would be after all the hype and recognition that someone would take Larry Finch's avitar Panthera model and produce the new Pantera. Doesn't anyone on the forum know a bigshot producer?
BTW, I'm for hire as a stunt driver.
Will
I think over modification of the cars has taken the value down. Many have removed the "Detomaso" & "Pantera" scrip from the back of the cars so you can't even tell what kinda of car it is.
Its like they they made their own car. They just started with the Pantera as a shell to start with.
I think that has taken away a lot from the Detomaso marquee.
quote:
Mine has the "DeTomaso Pantera/GTS" in 5" tall letters down both rockers and people still ask me what it is.

That same thing happened to me at a stop light. I told the guy if he couldn't read the sign at this close of a range, he shouldn't be driving. Stop signs have smaller lettering.
quote:
Originally posted by new & slow:
Many have removed the "Detomaso" & "Pantera" scrip from the back of the cars so you can't even tell what kinda of car it is.


I'm sure some of the early ones were removed because people got tired of responding the "what's a Panterd?".

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