Parts needed to convert duraspark?

George,

Wow! Great write up!!!!

But, a couple of things: the 7 wire module, 7th wire is a ground. I installed one of these systems in my 74 Cougar with the 351C. Worked great! Could never get my Edelbrock water injection system to work with it though! I was gonna look some of what you wrote up in the books,, but found I must have sold them! No longer on the shelf! They've been replaced with 1979 books, which indeed cover the DS-II system in great depth.

#2 Correct. Internal coil resistance values are different between DS-II and points type.

#3 Coil must be vertical???? I beg to differ and will be taking notes the next time I find a DSII equipped truck or station wagon. I believe that Ford used the same "lay down" coil bracket that came out in the 60's for SBF's, to mount the coil on the intake manifold on all engines up to the 460's in trucks.

#6 If you are running a resistor wire already, you do not need a ballast resistor. In fact, I believe you can even run this DS-II system without a resistor wire or a ballast resistor. This is why I chose it for my Goose. DeT never used a resistor wire....and I was boiling my old coils until I found out about this!!!! Changing to the DS-II system resolved that issue!

Your drawing shows an additional relay installed, which really is not necessary in most all cases when retrofitting into a Ford. I've never seen this in the Ford books or articles on the topic....yet.

#7 Spark scatter: I believe this is why Ford went to the larger distributor cap setup. To help prevent the cross firing.

Distributor wearing out at 50K???? Knowing that the parts books show the same identical bushing for almost every distributor made since the early 60's (Ford MPC...look it up.), why would a breakerless distributor wear any faster than one with points???? That doesn't make sense....unless your sources were talking about the pickup modules failing. I have had these fail, but only perhaps once in 16 years since installation in a daily driven car (and it was used already...).

If you look at your distributor body part number, it will be a C9ZZ....casting number. It is sourced from a 1969 351W distributor! Yes, you to can run a Windsor distributor in your 351C by simply changing the distributor gear.

Sorry, just can't buy the 50K wear out thing. That would imply that every 351W car still running out there today is doing so with a bad distributor.....

Now, perhaps if we're talking about worn out advance pivots, or advance bushings, that may be something that was skimped on in later years..... If you have any concerns, grab a 69-73 351W or 351C distributor and convert it over to a Duraspark unit by swapping in the breaker plate etc. You need to plug the old round hole for the wire, and cut a slot for the new wiring of the pickup module, but no big deal! This is not rocket science.

The thing about shocking yourself is true. Do not "knock" on the distributor if the rotor is lined up with the pickup, and the ignition switch is on.... In fact that is how you can test them!!! Just tap the distributor with a screwdriver head or similar and you'll get a spark! Comes in handy from time to time!

Since the availability of DS-1 modules is sketchy at best in terms of picking one up in the middle of no-where.....I would still advocate the DS-II module. Blue strain relief.

As for other colors, popular myth and junk yard observations would indicate that they are sorta keyed towards number of cylinders.... probably different advance/retard function to better fit the engine class....but, I have never found any documentation to support this. As far as a module goes, it DOES NOT CARE if an 8 cylinder distributor is telling it to fire, or a two cylinder pickup is telling it to fire.....so if you needed a new module, you could really get down the road on anything that a parts vendor or side of the road-kill donor could provide!

Ciao!
Steve

I did not mean to imply the Duraspark dizzys wear out faster than the breaker point dizzys. All Ford dizzys have the same problem. Its just that the subject is Duraspark. If you don't believe a Ford dizzy is worn out in 50,000 miles, put a 50,000 mile dizzy on a distributor machine and observe the operation of the advance mechanism compared to the advance mechanism of a new or rebuilt dizzy. The bushings will have play in them as well, which really played havoc with breaker points.

I believe the relay in the drawing is necessary, that's why I carefully and deliberately put it there. Its purpose is to route the current flowing to the module in another manner rather than flowing through the ignition switch, which when taken apart every Pantera owner will find is a dirty charred high resistance mess; and results in a voltage drop if the current to the module is left to flow through the ignition switch. The module will work best if it receives full battery voltage as intended.

The large Duraspark distributor cap was necessary to prevent crossfire, which is not the same as scatter. The coils on Duraspark equipped cars are still mounted on the intake manifold but they are mounted at a 45 degree angle, with the top higher than the bottom. You're wrong about the other colored modules (brown, yellow, white) indicating the number of cylinders. If you are getting away with no balast resistor supplying the coil with a Duraspark II module its because there is at least 1 ohm resistance in your circuit supplying the coil.

George,

I have seen many of the "later" distributor advance pins with nylon/plastic bushings on them where 60's-early 70's vintage pins are not bushed.... This may tend to have a lot to do with it. Usually the damned things stick! I can agree with the advance pins etc wearing.

Re relay: yes, that is what I sorta thought you were doing. I can fix that messed up ignition switch thing!!! See my post in "for sale"...

I still don't recall a 45 degree either, but I will look. Yes, I could be wrong about the number of cylinders...but they sure seem to be NOT blue in 4 bangers and 6 cylinder cars! Have never seen a blue one in a 4-6 and have never seen a non-blue in a V8...doesn't mean that they didn't.....

I forgot about the 8 wire (three connector) boxes too! there is some sort of interface to a smog type control valve, so some control units will have three connectors on them.....rule is to stay away from these boxes...... Have never looked up to see if you should short, put a resistor in the circuit, or leave it open....

Ciao!
Steve

The info on this thread had been great...thanks very much, what a big help!!!

I called my local NAPA store and they have both the Duraspark Distributor ($66 + $22 core since I'm not giving them the dual point dizzy that came stock on my car) and the Duraspark I (red strain relief $73). The parts guy I spoke with immediately knew what I was talking about when I asked for the Duraspark I red strain relief and said it took him a couple of calls to find the right module, but called me today and said he had it in hand waiting for me to pickup.

I started looking for the wiring harness...whats so special about the Painless harness...seems expensive ($119).

quote:

I called my local NAPA store and they have both the Duraspark Distributor

What are the NAPA part numbers?

Thanks,
John

Tom

20 years ago I ripped the wiring harnesses out of a Pick Your Parts car. But cars with Duraspark ignitions aren't as common in the wrecking yards as they used to be, so I think the wiring harness is a good resource for the guy who can't find a donor car.

As far as price goes, Painless Wiring is the only company offering a Duraspark harness, so the law of supply and demand is at work here. The harness will have 4 obsolete Ford specific connectors which will drive the price up a little.

Tom,

While what George says is true about proper DuraSpark II cars in the yards, they are indeed harder to come by...... trucks are numerous and plentiful!!!! So if you have a DIY bone in ya, you can find nice harnesses in trucks that may have some extra length in them too! But splicing to lengthen or shorten should be allowed for.... I think I had to add about 4ft to the harness that I found, out of an AMC postal truck! (AMC shared Ford parts suppliers sometimes....for a while anyway! My blue strain relief module says AMC on it, but carries a Motorcraft casting and D8TE stamping in it! (1978 Truck part..))

Also I noticed lots of old Lincolns hitting the yards lately too. They are also good sources of 429/460 distributors and modules! Many times less miles on these cars...they die more of lack of use....

Steve

Here's my 2 cents,

I removed a Duraspark Unit from my Pantera after a lot of grief, professionally installed by a vendor, I was amazed at how much wire these things required, alot of connection without very good results, left me on the side of the road many times. Also the large cap tends to rub and short out on the firewall, big problem.
I removed that mess and installed a Mallory Unilite small cap and pretty much restored the wiring to a stock configuration. It worked great at first. It seems to be fading away at not many miles.

This Distributer thing is a problem on fords, I don't want anything to do with MSD as a non fix, I thought I would try Crane Cams Ignition, http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/Page019.pdf , but I do not know if they are reliable and then I would be back to the wiring mess with boxes.

So with this in mind I don't want to reinvent the wheel here, or install a over complicated crank triggered ignition, I go back to what I know will work and you can forget it, a HEI unit from GM.
Guess what; http://www.performancedistributors.com/forddui.htm
Looks like for me with the new engine install I will be moving the Engine and Trans back 1/2" to 1" to keep the Distributer off the fire wall!
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...=576105521#576105521

Mark

Mark,

That's a bummer!!!!! With only the module and the pickup in the distributor to fail, other than mechanical bits common to all types of distributors, I would venture that your story is the exception....... So many DuraSpark conversions have been done, and it is documented "how" in so many places.....it is a surprise (to me) that you had issues, other than the cap hitting the chassis... I would have put the small distributor cap back on, run the plugs at .045-.050" gap and called it good!

Sounds a lot easier than moving an engine and trans.......

Steve

Just picked up my parts from NAPA:
Rebuilt Ford Motorcraft Distributor NAPA part #48-2893 $56.72 (NAPA tells me they come from A-1 Cardone)
New Duraspark Control Module (red strain relief) made by Echlin, NAPA part #TP39 $77.18
I will post some pictures later today.

The parts man at NAPA really knows what he's doing...he made sure that the distributor came with the larger drive gear for the Cleveland and made sure the control module came with the red strain relief. He also threw in three hardened distributor drive gear pins.

Mark I'm hoping for better results than you've had...the thing that sold me was all the detail that George posted earlier in the thread...the 10 degree retard will be helpful for a 10.5 cr motor...and hopefully will be a very reliable system.

Next step...checking out the distributor advance weights and springs.

Tom,

Sounds like you have a plan!!!!

Couple of things..... I am not sure if the module that you have delivers the 10 degree retard during start. AFAIK, that is a blue module feature, but then this is all I have ever seen mentioned. Possible that the others have it, but I've never heard from a Ford Ignition engineer as to the validity of a statement like that. Perhaps you can figure it out during installation!? Check timing without it connected up (S wire) and with......

As for George's history lesson, his dates and names are not correct, but the general idea is solid regarding most of his explanation.

I think either system I or II will kill you if you are grabbing the wrong wire in the proper way, but other than that, you will get a wake up call if you are holding a wire when it fires!!! They develop a lot of voltage either way!

I've given BossWrench a copy of a Ford doc printed in the late 70's or early 80's that plainly documents how to work on these ignition systems. I hope that he will print it one of these days in the POCA newsletter! It's about 7-8 double sided pages...and is most interesting!

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Mangusta:
Tom,

I think either system I or II will kill you if you are grabbing the wrong wire in the proper way, but other than that, you will get a wake up call if you are holding a wire when it fires!!! They develop a lot of voltage either way!
Steve

Steve...that's not the greatest news...that feature described by George was one of the ones that really sold me and was one of the features an absent minded mechanic like me really needs. I have been ZAPPPPPPED!!! a few times and a "wake up call" (LOL) is not a fair description!!!!!! Silly me...I have never liked being the conductor of electricity. I remember screwing around in high school with an Excel coil in my Mustang that supposedly put out 50K volts or something like that and my friends and I use to marvel at how far the spark would jump from the coil to the unplugged coil wire WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING....makes for some interesting night time fireworks. Surprisingly we lived through that period of our lives.

Ah yes, the early years....with electricity!!!!

What I do not understand in George's post, was how the two system supposedly differ in terms of the voltage "firing"?

The pickup in the distributor is the same. The method to make the unit "fire" is the same. Line up the rotor vane with the pickup coil, and tap distributor with a screwdriver handle....spark happens. Now, how would a module make this different??? Coils are the same or darn similar....

I think either system you choose needs to be treated with respect.....less you want the wife to see you out dancing around your car waving your numb fingers in the air..... Don't ask...

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by SICK CAT:
Here's my 2 cents,

I removed a Duraspark Unit from my Pantera after a lot of grief, professionally installed by a vendor, I was amazed at how much wire these things required, alot of connection without very good results, left me on the side of the road many times. Also the large cap tends to rub and short out on the firewall, big problem.
I removed that mess and installed a Mallory Unilite small cap and pretty much restored the wiring to a stock configuration. It worked great at first. It seems to be fading away at not many miles.

This Distributer thing is a problem on fords, I don't want anything to do with MSD as a non fix, I thought I would try Crane Cams Ignition, http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/Page019.pdf , but I do not know if they are reliable and then I would be back to the wiring mess with boxes.

So with this in mind I don't want to reinvent the wheel here, or install a over complicated crank triggered ignition, I go back to what I know will work and you can forget it, a HEI unit from GM.
Guess what; http://www.performancedistributors.com/forddui.htm
Looks like for me with the new engine install I will be moving the Engine and Trans back 1/2" to 1" to keep the Distributer off the fire wall!
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...=576105521#576105521

Mark

If you use the small cap then there is no problem with it shorting to the firewall. The cap is less then $9.

I guess no one listens to me?

No Doug, I saw that....there's a picture of the small cap, it was black. I have not gone back and re-read this thread but there was also a comment that one of the cures for spark scatter above 6,000r's was the use of the larger cap....I was thinking I'd try both. My distributor is tight with the large cap and I was actually looking forward to using the small cap to gain some room.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom@Seal Beach:
No Doug, I saw that....there's a picture of the small cap, it was black. I have not gone back and re-read this thread but there was also a comment that one of the cures for spark scatter above 6,000r's was the use of the larger cap....I was thinking I'd try both. My distributor is tight with the large cap and I was actually looking forward to using the small cap to gain some room.

People have been using the small cap in racing forever.

I've run 8,200rpm with no noticeable problems. Of course at that speed I'm getting shaken around pretty well and probably wouldn't notice.

Not only is the cap smaller but you eliminate the adapter for the big cap.

I was sceptical at first but the large cap just doesn't fit with the Webers so I had no choice.

Tom,

There are two issues with distributors and spark....spark scatter, and spark jumping.....

Spark scatter (as I understand it) is the ability to create a spark at the same time every time during and engine's revolution....apparently the point at which a pick up actually picks up the vane of the distributor rotor can vary slightly.....from different manufacturers.... I know not how the DuraSpark performs here.....but Dr Jacobs of Jacob's Ignitions doesn't seem to have much of a problem with them....

Second thing is spark jumping.... or crossfiring...and this can be reduced by running slightly smaller spark plug gaps than recommended for the large cap systems. Theory being that the larger spark gap works the system harder, and if the conditions are right, a spark could jump from one terminal to another (path of least resistance) and cause issues.

I'd run a small cap and see what happens. If you are the sort that can't handle running below 6000 rpms on a daily basis, well then you need to be more creative in your solution.

I don't know too many folks that actually would ever see their 351C at the 6000-6500 RPM range....so I still maintain that the DuraSpark components are one of the best upgrades for an ignition system.

Doug....what did you say??

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Mangusta:
Tom,

There are two issues with distributors and spark....spark scatter, and spark jumping.....

Spark scatter (as I understand it) is the ability to create a spark at the same time every time during and engine's revolution....apparently the point at which a pick up actually picks up the vane of the distributor rotor can vary slightly.....from different manufacturers.... I know not how the DuraSpark performs here.....but Dr Jacobs of Jacob's Ignitions doesn't seem to have much of a problem with them....

Second thing is spark jumping.... or crossfiring...and this can be reduced by running slightly smaller spark plug gaps than recommended for the large cap systems. Theory being that the larger spark gap works the system harder, and if the conditions are right, a spark could jump from one terminal to another (path of least resistance) and cause issues.

I'd run a small cap and see what happens. If you are the sort that can't handle running below 6000 rpms on a daily basis, well then you need to be more creative in your solution.

I don't know too many folks that actually would ever see their 351C at the 6000-6500 RPM range....so I still maintain that the DuraSpark components are one of the best upgrades for an ignition system.

Doug....what did you say??

Steve

Sorry Steve. I guess I was reving it a little to loudly? Needless to say, I am not running a stock engine?

That small cap shouldn't be any kind of a problem for a stockish engine.

Here's a picture of the DuraSpark I Control Module I picked up a NAPA today. Note red strain relief.

Here's a picture of the DuraSpark Distributor I picked up today. This is rebuilt by A1 Cardone for NAPA per the parts man.