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Ok, thanks guys.  I have chosen to go with a brass/copper radiator because I'm not concerned about lowering weight and I like the ability to repair and recore in the future like the original.  So it appears that no one makes one with inlets/outlets bent 90 degrees with enough clearance for sucker fans behind?  I can see from the excellent photos that laying the rad forward isn't an issue, but I would still have to have the Hall rad inlet/outlets extended to fit sucker fans/shroud.  If I decide to do the reverse and install new higher volume, more efficient pusher fans/shroud instead of the sucker fans/shroud can anyone vouch for the Hall being able to fit in place just like the original - without laying it forward?  Same mounting points etc?  Has anyone used the Brassworks radiator?   If so, can you chime in on how it mounted etc?  Thx

Garth posted an excellent reply about pusher fans in your previous cooling system topic (radiator looks like it might blow) on January 2, 2018. Good reading.

Install 2 new pusher fans with new high volume blades as per Garth's post, install the Hall radiator sitting straight-up as designed. You can't buy a better radiator.

Last edited by George P

I have had a Ron Davis triple pass aluminum radiator in my Pantera for over 20 years. It has shrouded sucker fans on the back and although the outlet is on the driver's side of the car and some modifications to the coolant pipes had to be made, it has done very well. Better than the two pass aluminum radiator that it replaced. Arizona desert tested with an accurate water temperature gauge!

Thanks to each of you!  You are right George, I have talked to Garth live recently but had forgotten what a fine and informative post he wrote almost exactly a year ago.  It's been a difficult and stressful year, but I think I can look forward to getting things off to a more progressive new year and I wish the same to all here!  Thx.

The Flowkooler water pump arrived today and the SACC billet pulley arrived the other day - so now just need the new radiator, grommets and ? to disconnect the originals and replace.  I got the bolt kit from Summit with the water pump and it came with two different gaskets (why?).  When I installed the correct thermostat I installed it and the gasket using Permatex water pump & thermostat gasket maker #22071 per info from two mechanics and NAPA.  I plan to use the same again for the water pump installation.

The first pic shows the water pump and the pulley together with the two gaskets. The gasket on the left looks like it fits correctly, not sure about the one on the right.  The water pump has some scratches on the attachment face (see second pic for close up) but the pulley is a work of art!  Nice job Scott!

Do I need to do anything with those scratches or will the gasket + gasket sealer be enough to not worry about them?

As I mentioned above, Steve W. told me not to install a pulley to move coolant faster through the radiator, but others here and Georges' excellent article on cooling suggest doing so and my inclination is to go with that advice.  I have the pulley, but I don't have to install it - what do you say?

A paddle-wheel water pump will cavitate- generate bubbles- and stop pumping much water at some engine speed; street engines usually do so around 5000 rpm. Changing pulley ratios is common; smaller ones lead to 'overdrive'- pumping more at low engine speeds and not pumping enough (due to cavitation) at higher engine speeds. The old trick of clipping every other impeller blade off a stock pump moves cavitation to higher engine speeds, as does a larger pulley (underdrive). I've made a few pump pullies in several ratios for street machines that worked for their owner's purposes.

As for your small pulley, it's not much trouble to try it- only 4 bolts and maybe a vee belt;  with your driving style and the roads around your area, it might improve cooling... or not. If it gets hot earlier than you can live with, just remove the custom pulley before you get boil-over. No one can really predict what will happen with any given car combination, but I wouldn't intentionally use a small pulley at long WOT Silver State events or at Bonneville.

Minor face scratches in a pump won't hurt anything; use non-hardening sealer like Permatex #2. Pressures are only on the order of 15-20 psi or less. Just be VERY sure the new pump is NOT designed to run on a late engine with a serpentine belt. Serpentine-belt water pumps are designed to run BACKWARDS compared to vee-belt pumps. Massive overheating will result from mixing this up regardless of your pulley ratio.

Thanks Bosswrench.  The water pump is the Flowkooler 1648 mentioned in George's cooling system analysis sticky thread and by others so I believe it to be correct non-serpentine model:

and the Permatex is this one in the pic.

Gasket maker

Summit sent the wrong bolt kit with the pump (for a Chevy with only 4 same length bolts) and are now sending the correct kit with 11 different length bolts.

I had a chance to talk with Tara at Hall Pantera today and they will be back in the shop on the 2nd if anyone is interested, and I also got a nice call back from Dennis Quella.  If I change my mind and go aluminum I'll be ordering directly from him.  I am hoping to follow up with Brassworks when they reopen to find out more info about their radiator which there is a link to elsewhere but I'll put here again for general purposes:

I'm not sure what:

"Its made with tellurium copper and highly elliptical staggerred tube design and serves as the mid engines primary heat exchanger."

means, but I intend to find out.


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  • Gasket maker
Last edited by George P
rrs1 posted:

Does anybody have any experience with the brassworks radiator? All I care about is that it doesn't leak, and looks pretty stock, since it's getting impossible to find good radiator re-builders. The Phoenix radiators are good at cooling, but both of mine leaked quickly, after a fix they still leaked! 

Hey RRS1, can you provide any more info about your where/how your two radiators leaked/failed?  Did you buy these new, direct from Hall?  If so, how long ago?  Any other information?

FWIW, many owners solve the 90 degree bend problem on their radiator in & out spigots with a pair of big sweat-solder copper fittings (that never rust) and two short straight sections of 1-3/8" or 1-1/2" rubber hose per bend. Using them also extends the crossover hose away from the core for sucker fan & shroud clearance.

The main advantage of aluminum rads (besides 1/2 the wt) is the 3-4X larger core tubes that hold more coolant and flow so much more- not possible with copper rads. The Pantera needs all the cooling help it can get since its stock engine produces as much power as a 350 'Vette but the stock rad is 20% smaller and 6 ft away from the heat source. Then we modify them for more power & torque....

Earlycat, the Blue and Red Owners Manuals show the water pipes plumbed both ways in successive factory manuals. It makes engineering sense to plumb cooled water to the bottom of a radiator so the rising flow can help chase air bubbles up & out instead of fighting gravity, but who knows what logic Ford/DeTomaso followed?

I once tried both styles on a 600 mile round trip, changing configurations mid-trip at a friends garage. I found zero difference + or - in terms of stabilized running engine temp, on our car at least. YMMV.

I judged them by weight. The heavy Hall lasts forever and makes  turning better. Cools just fine. Replaced with a new Hall rad to utilize the original thermo switches for fans. Previous H had snap switches blocked off and manual fan switch firing both pushers. New Hall has larger fans but same crappy right angle fabbed hose necks. Nothing like a beautifully engineered part with two steps backward . Every 90 deg bend is detrimental to flow. Two 45's are better. Three 30's even better. A variable radius sweep, now you're back to beautiful. Besides, copper and brass are the MOST malleable metals and sexy as hell when hand finished. That's how I'd build it. Supplied with a nice clear finish. Make you paint it crappy black.

How much money you got?

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