Hi all, I've replaced the belts and hoses on 6144, but am still having some overheating issues. I have purchased the correct RS 333-180 thermostat and bypass restrictor plate from Marlin Jack (Thank you MJ!) from the advice I have gotten here (thank you all - especially George P. and John B.). My next steps most likely will be to change out the water pump for the Flow Kooler #1648, add the SACC billet pulley and install the thermostat. I wasn't sure if I was going to change the radiator, but upon further inspection I don't like the look of the top nipple at all - it's got a nasty bulge as you can hopefully see in the picture. I would rather go with a copper core radiator and am considering the Hall radiator. The car has been fitted previously with Flex-a-Lite sucker fans which still work (although wired directly to the ignition, another fix needed). I have measured the distance out from the back of the radiator to the 90 degree bend (inside) of the nipple and it appears to be 3 1/4- 3 1/2 inches. Is this normal? Will the Hall have the same amount of clearance? When the radiator was previously out was the nipple extended to allow for the fans? Should I just ditch the current fans and go with the Mirriah pushers? What do you think?

Attachments

Photos (1)
Original Post
I agree.

With a S/N 6144 you should already have the horizontal Radiator Baffle, but that would be an easy check when the radiator is out of the car.

The shop could likely put new tubes there for you...

I do have the Hall Phoenix radiator - it's pretty stout - maybe not the lightest piece in the world, but mine is well constructed.

Rocky
As seen here, The Hall radiator outlets allow just enough room for the hoses to clear the radiator fins, i.e. no room for those fans.
In my experience, installing a Hall radiator, a SACC billet water pump pulley, and re-building the pusher fans has resulted in stable coolant temperatures and no more overheating.
Your temps may vary.............

Attachments

Photos (1)
Pantera 6018, for which I am the current custodian, is also equipped with a Hall radiator. Without an oem radiator available for comparison, and based upon my admittedly less than perfect memory, I would advise Paul that the outlet nipples of his Pantera's oem radiator have been extended to make room for the sucker fans.

Extended or not extended? Pictures from folks with oem radiators would be very helpful at the moment.

If extended, is that the "only" cause of the bulging of his Pantera's radiator outlet nipples, or is the radiator's copper thin "in general". The copper of radiators does get thin with age and mileage.

I know Paul is leaning towards a replacement radiator. But is that his only choice, is a re-core a possibility? All input will help him assess the status of his radiator.
Extended..........
This shot of the overly ugly/oem/mess removed from 4744 shows the same immediate 90 degree bend in both nipples.
I was quoted the same price (less temp switches) to rebuild it as Hall's price (brand new with switches)
That's why it's now garage wall art............

Attachments

Photos (1)
...Fans are wired off the Ignition Switch??

That's a No-No! The High Amperage will Melt the Contacts of the Switch, or at least Burn them up to Failure.
The Fans should be wired off (2) Relays, One Each Fan, Controlling Current Directly from the Battery to Each Fan (They will Run at Full-Blast), And the Ignition Switch Energizes ONLY the Relays (low current). The relays are Grounded through the 'Temperature Switches' mounted on the Rad. Get the Relays with Contacts Rated at Least 30 Amps. I Like to 'Over-Kill'.

Second, looks like the Radiator Pipes may be leaking, loosing coolant and pressure. Loosing pressure will allow the system to overheat.

I Appreciate Your Support.

P.S. I had My Original Brass Rad Rebuilt by a Shop that Knew What they were doing. They ReBuilt it with (5) Cores. Cost Me the Same as a New Aluminum Rad, $500. Guaranteed for 5 Years. (I do NOT recommend the Aluminum Rad)

Good-Luck with It!
I have two of the Hall radiators, and they do a fine job cooling and have that OEM look, BUT one started leaking after only a couple of years, I had every joint re- soldered just to make sure it didn't happen again which cost almost as much as the whole thing new! The other one is getting to be the same age, we will see.
Thank everybody for the input. I was lucky enough to see George's Hall radiator in person last evening and it was instantly obvious that the elbows were much closer to the radiator itself than than the ones on my are. I know the radiator has been out and recored at least once, and suspect that at that time the decision was made to go to the Flex-a-Lite sucker style fans and they had the shop doing the recore extend the elbows to give the added clearance. PanTTera's excellent picture clearly shows that a stock, original radiator also had the elbows closer to the radiator than mine does. Anybody else out there who has had to do this mod to accommodate sucker fans? I appreciate the suggestions to consider repairing/rebuilding this one, just how many times is that really feasible to do? The Hall radiator I saw yesterday looks to be thicker than mine which as I said I believe to an original factory stock unit that was recored and had the nipples extended. In this picture you can see the top of the radiator with text saying FIM and Bologna Italy and you can also see a small plate that says 133470 Performance AZ.

Attachments

Photos (1)
Ok, so my options are:

1. Recore this original again if possible.

2. Go with the Hall and the Mirriah fans

3. Go with the BrassWorks custom radiator with 2 12" Spall fans. See it here:

BrassWorks

I'm not sure of the cost of #1 but I've heard it's as much as a new Hall IF you can find a decent place to do it right, #2 is $1,100, and #3 is $1,325.

So I'm asking you - the brain trust - to help me decide. What do you think?????
Of course you can do it.

None of the approaches is rocket science. The Brassworks setup looks pretty cool, and must come with wiring so that all you have to do is get a high power feed up to the fans, and the sensors and relays do the control work.

Option #2 & #1 probably have a lot more wiring challenges.

I was surprised to hear a radiator repair / recore would be that expensive, but I haven't priced radiator work in a while.

Good luck. You won't have any (major) problems with any of your choices.

Rocky
I had my newer improved (73-74) rad re-cored about a year ago for $600. That doesn't include fans that I want/need. Maybe should have opted for the lighter aluminum one. But I am trying to keep some originality for some reason. It's like going to the store for beer, lots of options.

Ken
P.I. Motorsports has a cool new fan kit for the Fluidyne aluminum Pantera rad. It uses 14" fans, which are the largest I've seen on a Pantera:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DeToma...AOSwnbZYCmkO&vxp=mtr

Here's a link to the Fluidyne aluminum rad:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DeToma...%26sd%3D282228124862

Here's a rad/fan/shroud setup that looks identical to the package Pantera Performance in Colorado sells (that's made for them by Ron Davis):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-1...AOxy79JSXs9Y&vxp=mtr
My car has had the Phoenix radiator for years, and years. About 5 or so years ago it started leaking at one of the tanks so I pulled it out to have a shop look at it. Hall did a good job on the Phoenix design. It is a combination of automotive, and heavy equipment radiators built as one.

My radiator needed recoring, this is where the heavy equipment part comes in. The core is from a fork truck. If you see one you will notice how tightly packed the fins are in those cores...and as others have said it is close to 5" thick.

While I had my radiator out I also replaced the pump, and thermostat. I used the Stewart piece and it is a very well built pump, using a shrouded impeller.
Stewart Water Pump.
Jeff
Anyone have pics of their Mirriah fans in place. I believe I have decided to go in that direction (long story why it has taken so long) and it appears from my picture that everything is still there in front of the existing radiator to allow the new fans to be relocated to the front (anyone disagree?) and I'd like to see how they look in place. Also, from the hall website (not very big on multiple pics or descriptions of products lol) these fans seem to have no surrounding protection of the fan blade tips at all. Is that correct? I thought they would at least have some sort of outer ring to protect the blade tips. Any pics and advice is very welcome! Thanks
The fan blade tips are joined by a ring around the outside of the blades for strength, the ring turns with the fan blades, there is no separate stationary ring for safety. The radiator does indeed have a threaded port for a vent connection or a petcock.

Attachments

Photos (1)
Hi Paul,

If you recore the radiator, only the two brass tanks and the two steel straps will be reused. You can have the radiator shop install whatever nipple configuration that you desire.

If you buy a new radiator, any radiator shop can change or modify the nipples. You could even have short straight nipple(s) installed and use a 90° hose.

This would save you the additional expense of purchasing the Mirriahs.

If you do use the Mirriahs, the diameter of the motor housing is slightly larger than the stock fan motors, which will require you to massage the retaining straps and use a longer screw on the top.

You will need to pay attention to the location of the fan blade relative to the radiator AND to the shroud above the fans.

Check for proper rotation of the fans. With the fans running, hold a piece of paper behind the radiator; the paper should NOT be sucked into the radiator. Check both fans.

With the Mirriah fans installed, you may experience engine "run on". If this happens, DO NOT use a diode in the fan's wiring. If need be, I can advise you of a solution.

John
quote:
With the Mirriah fans installed, you may experience engine "run on". If this happens, DO NOT use a diode in the fan's wiring....


....like Rocky did.

Smiler

The diodes are the devices connected with the wing nuts. They mount to the vehicle structure (for the ground connection). In my picture above, they have the red wires going to them.

Agree with most of what John said.

I have not had any issues caused by the diodes, although I can not argue that there is a .7V voltage drop across the diode. This reduces the performance of the fans by at least 5% (and maybe more).

I believe that I have not had issues because my cooling system is in good condition, and I am not operating at the margins. This certainly could be an issue if there is a weakness in the cooling system, especially at low engine RPMs (like being stuck in traffic on the way to the Fun Rally in Vegas).

Rocky
Question, 1.) Did you breed the air out of the radiator at the top petcock located on the driver side of the radiator? 2.) you must have the top sheet metal that cover the radiator to the front grill in place and their should be sheet metal sides that direct the air into your radiator ( did not see in you pictures)4.) with the fans on and running, hold a sheet of paper in front of the radiator, it should be sucked against the radiator,if it is blowing instead of sucking your car will overheat. If you have not done these first checks do them now before you change anything. The stock radiator as was suggester can be cleaned and brazed if necessary, the radiator is easy and straight forward to get out.($100.00). I would based on you pictures just buy a new radiator with sucker fans, they are more efficient and draw far less amperage than the pusher (very heavy) German fans. Your water pump unless it is leaking is probably not the problem, it just appears your radiator is worn out.
Hi Paul,
I have the Merriahs and are happy with them. I ran new power cables to the relays at the front to ensure max power. Run on does occur for a couple of seconds only and is no problem - just make sure you don't have the habbit of putting the car into first gear when you park and taking your foot off the clutch when you turn off the ignition - you will give your self a shock when the car jumps forward. One tip is to spray paint the motors of the merriah fans black before you mount them. Then you wont have two large shiny disk-like / head light-like things visible through the grill. Cheers Tim
Thanks guys! As usual, you all are awesome.

I have been talking to Tara Hall and can get the radiator, but for whatever reason they can no longer get the Mirriah fans/blades. So before I buy a radiator, I need to source some new/very lightly used fans or modify their radiator. The Hall radiator does not have enough clearance between the rear of the radiator and the outlet/inlet elbows to allow for my current Flexalite sucker-style fans, so my only options are:

1. Get new Hall radiator elbows extended to give the clearance needed to use my existing fans (modifying the current wiring to utilize new temp sensors in radiator and remove load from ignition)
2. Get new front mounted pusher fans/blades (whether Mirriah/Spahl/etc.) and do same wiring upgrades with new Hall radiator.

What's your opinion? If #1, any drawbacks to extending the elbows or otherwise except it would be using older fans? If #2, anyone have a set on new/near new Mirriah's? If Spahl, which and why?

I have decided not to go with the 45degree lay-down style radiators some have suggested for aesthetic reasons.

George, I see now that the pic above does show that the fans/ring are attached - my bad.
quote:
they can no longer get the Mirriah fans/blades.

Do they perhaps still have ...replacement... fans for the Mirriah motors?

Because..... I have two Mirriah fan motors that were running fine until I destroyed the front of 2511, but the fan blades are history. Yours for the cost of shipping.

Also, I noticed in your photos that your current fans are held in place with the through-the-radiator zip-tie mounts. This is not advised, as the vibrations of normal driving may cause the zip-ties to "saw" their way into the water tubes .... not good.

I'd suggest another call to Tara and then send me a PM if you're interested in the motors.

Larry
I'm coming into the discussion late, but here's my thoughts;

Mounting sucker fans usually requires tilting the radiator forward a little (lay down) are you sure that hasn't been done to your current setup? The lay down isn't typically as aggressive as 45 degrees in my experience. I used a ~2" bracket to move the upper radiator mounting forwad enough.

I believe the Hall Pheonix radiator is quite a bit thicker than a stock (or Fluidyne) radiator further restricting available room for sucker fans. In short option 2. may be the only viable one with a Hall Pheonix radiator.

In addition the recommended standoff for a flan blade is 3/4" for optimal efficiency and placing the Flex-a-lite shroud against the radiator usually results in the fan blades being too close to the radiator core. Standing off further requires even more free space to work with.

Have you considered the Fluidyne (or other e.g. Ron Davis) aluminum radiator? The newer Fuidyne is 5 core, PIM seems to have the cheapest prices at $585 and it has straight outlet/inlet tubes so you can create any standoff with a 90 degree hose. Modern M22x1.5 fittings allow for a number of modern programmable temp sensor options.

I would not recommend mounting any fan with the through core tie method that you currently have. Mirriah fans are an old school upgrade, modern curved blade fans move significantly more air then the Mirriah's will. If I was buying fans it would be modern ones, and you may already be aware the curved blade fans are pusher or sucker profile and not usually reversible like older straight profile fans. Sucker fans are more efficient than pushers.

Have you checked your under car coolant tubes for crud and sedimentation?

Julian
Hi Larry, Hi Julian, thanks for the replies.

My interest was in staying with a copper core radiator rather than an aluminum radiator.

All of the hoses and belts were replaced 18 months ago along with the undercar tubes and the swirl and overflow bottles.

Hall does not have motors or blades at this time.

I really appreciate all the ideas and information all have provided. I will be doing my best to try all the tests mentioned here. I have family in critical condition in the hospital so my time with the PCar is limited right now. I think modern fans mounted in front with out modifying the radiator or modern fans behind and just extending the outlet tubes the required amount if possible sound like the best bet. Had hoped to change out the thermostat today with a RobertShaw 330-180 with brass sleeve, but I'm off to the hospital an hour away again.

Thank you for your interest and support!
Paul
On my 1971 Pantera I had a Hall Phoenix radiator and was able to fit 12" Spal style fans behind it in the stock position with some tinkering. I also had the AC condenser in front with 10" Spal style fans ahead of it. It all worked well. The car ran cool and the AC worked great.

On my 1972 Pantera I have a similar setup but with larger fans and a Fluidyne radiator. The car is under construction and do not yet know how the cooling performs.

The Hall Phoenix radiator is a good piece of equipment. It cools well and since it is copper will likely live longer than an aluminum radiator. The unit in my 71 was decades old and seemed like it would continue to not leak. However, it is quite a bit heavier than the Fluidyne.
Gary Hall once told me the Phoenix model was made with TWO std. thickness copper cores on regular tanks. He once donated one to a 'Vegas Fun rally raffle as the grand prize; I picked it up and held it up to the light. It was indeed heavy (over 50 lbs) and no light could be seen through the core!

Doing sucker fans with a straight-up mounted rad of any size or type, the main drawback is you will lose some skin off your knuckles in getting the hose clamps tight and fan wires connected. But it can be done, with some pain. Better to lay the rad fwd, for convenience & less blood loss. Don't forget when laying a rad fwd, you need a half-size top rad cover to block off air leakage.
I replaced what i think was a Phoenix radiator in my 72. It was pretty old. A solder joint would spring a leak about every year. But it worked very well and is repairable. I bought a new one from Hall. The core is a different design but it works well. Yeah they are heavy but i dont think that weight on the nose hurts anything.
Mike
Fan blades - more efficient aftermarket fan blades - are readily available from various vendors - Spal, Flex-A-Lite, etc. I'll see if I can find the links I have saved somewhere.

A great option for fan motors is CoolCat fans!
http://www.coolcatcorp.com/product/CoolCatFan38.html


I mounted two of these CoolCat fan motors into my Pantera and they work great. Dimensions are nearly identical to the original Lucas motors. The Coolcat motor is 3" in diameter and should fit anyplace a Lucas motor fits. It will not accept a Lucas blade however, as shaft is thicker. I encountered this when mounting my Cortina blades and merely drilled them out a hair to fit the larger shaft, and added a set screw from a set of Flex-A-Lite fans I had laying around. Contact Mike Frank at CoolCat to get a price on a pair of fan motors WITHOUT fan blades or the mounting plate shown in the pic. You can buy pusher blades relatively inexpensively elsewhere online, and the Pantera already has the mounting for the motors.

Replacement fan blades are readily available. I believe the Cortina fan blades (The Cortina 8-blade fans and their steel adapters were listed in the Gr-3 & Gr-4 Supplemental Parts Lists for Europe) are 10" diameter, and the Flex-a-Lite blades Hall sells with their Mariah pusher fans are 12" since they don't use the original fan shrouds.

The GR-3/GR-4 (Cortina) fan blades may still be available from the vendors. I don't see them on Hall's site, but they are on Wilkinson's site (Item #70 in the diagram below):



https://panterapartsusa.myshopify.com/products/11052A


Here are replacement parts/blades from Flex-a-Lite, almost all available on Summit Racing or Amazon.
https://www.flex-a-lite.com/el...ement-parts.html?p=1

This is the fan blade like Hall uses with their Mariah fans:

https://www.flex-a-lite.com/12...cement-ring-fan.html

Similar style, but curved blade design:

https://www.flex-a-lite.com/el...t-fan-blade-694.html

A few more generic looking 12" fan blades:

https://www.flex-a-lite.com/el...t-fan-blade-693.html


https://www.flex-a-lite.com/el...t-fan-blade-695.html


https://www.flex-a-lite.com/el...ement-fan-blade.html

Flex-a-Lite also sells replacement 10" fan blades if you wish to try and fit them inside the original fan shrouds:

https://www.flex-a-lite.com/10...t-fan-blade-726.html
https://www.carid.com/flex-a-l...lade-mpn-32131k.html

Garth's illustrated fan blade article is great! For the bargain hunters among us, if you decide the small OD Cortina 8-blade fans can be had a few bucks cheaper from E-Bay instead of a Pantera vendor, some of whom stock the assembly shown, be aware they were originally used as a sucker fan mounted directly on 4 cylinder Ford Cortina vee-belt driven water pumps. They have an oversized center hole that's filled with DeTomaso's steel adapter parts #69 and #71, plus the four metric bolts shown in the Gr-3 catalogue. This kit adapts the fan to a Lucas DC motor shaft, mounted backwards to become a ring-shrouded pusher.

Without those adapter parts, the bare plastic fan(s) will not fit anything except a Cortina water pump & pulley. Of course, if you own a lathe, some scrap metal and have a Saturday free..... People who bought the 8-blade kits from a vendor decades ago say they do in fact help lower water temps a little with stock fan motors. But today, more powerful pancake DC motors and matching larger dia fan blades move 4-6X more air than any fan blades run by stock Lucas DC motors.

When I wrote my fan/DC motor article a decade or so ago, I used an E-Bay  anemometer to check actual air flows for a whole number of fans, but I never bothered to check the small Cortina 8-blade. I had a pair of 10" DC 4-blade sucker fans in a full shroud on our Pantera for a couple of years. In a test on Judy's favorite highway on the way to 'Vegas at 150 mph for ten (10.0) minutes, water temp slowly climbed from 200F to 230F on a calibrated 260F gauge. I slowed to 90 mph, & water temp slowly returned to 200F. Later that year I changed to 14" shrouded Flexilite 10-blade sucker fans; a repeat test at the same speed & road the next year showed no high-speed temp creep. Dunno about 180 mph; my tires, like my body, are getting on a bit....

Add Reply

Likes (0)
Post
×
×
×
×