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With a S/N 6144 you should already have the horizontal Radiator Baffle, but that would be an easy check when the radiator is out of the car.
The shop could likely put new tubes there for you...
I do have the Hall Phoenix radiator - it's pretty stout - maybe not the lightest piece in the world, but mine is well constructed.
In my experience, installing a Hall radiator, a SACC billet water pump pulley, and re-building the pusher fans has resulted in stable coolant temperatures and no more overheating.
Your temps may vary.............
Extended or not extended? Pictures from folks with oem radiators would be very helpful at the moment.
If extended, is that the "only" cause of the bulging of his Pantera's radiator outlet nipples, or is the radiator's copper thin "in general". The copper of radiators does get thin with age and mileage.
I know Paul is leaning towards a replacement radiator. But is that his only choice, is a re-core a possibility? All input will help him assess the status of his radiator.
This shot of the overly ugly/oem/mess removed from 4744 shows the same immediate 90 degree bend in both nipples.
I was quoted the same price (less temp switches) to rebuild it as Hall's price (brand new with switches)
That's why it's now garage wall art............
That's a No-No! The High Amperage will Melt the Contacts of the Switch, or at least Burn them up to Failure.
The Fans should be wired off (2) Relays, One Each Fan, Controlling Current Directly from the Battery to Each Fan (They will Run at Full-Blast), And the Ignition Switch Energizes ONLY the Relays (low current). The relays are Grounded through the 'Temperature Switches' mounted on the Rad. Get the Relays with Contacts Rated at Least 30 Amps. I Like to 'Over-Kill'.
Second, looks like the Radiator Pipes may be leaking, loosing coolant and pressure. Loosing pressure will allow the system to overheat.
I Appreciate Your Support.
P.S. I had My Original Brass Rad Rebuilt by a Shop that Knew What they were doing. They ReBuilt it with (5) Cores. Cost Me the Same as a New Aluminum Rad, $500. Guaranteed for 5 Years. (I do NOT recommend the Aluminum Rad)
Good-Luck with It!
1. Recore this original again if possible.
2. Go with the Hall and the Mirriah fans
3. Go with the BrassWorks custom radiator with 2 12" Spall fans. See it here:
I'm not sure of the cost of #1 but I've heard it's as much as a new Hall IF you can find a decent place to do it right, #2 is $1,100, and #3 is $1,325.
So I'm asking you - the brain trust - to help me decide. What do you think?????
None of the approaches is rocket science. The Brassworks setup looks pretty cool, and must come with wiring so that all you have to do is get a high power feed up to the fans, and the sensors and relays do the control work.
Option #2 & #1 probably have a lot more wiring challenges.
I was surprised to hear a radiator repair / recore would be that expensive, but I haven't priced radiator work in a while.
Good luck. You won't have any (major) problems with any of your choices.
Here's a link to the Fluidyne aluminum rad:
Here's a rad/fan/shroud setup that looks identical to the package Pantera Performance in Colorado sells (that's made for them by Ron Davis):
My radiator needed recoring, this is where the heavy equipment part comes in. The core is from a fork truck. If you see one you will notice how tightly packed the fins are in those cores...and as others have said it is close to 5" thick.
While I had my radiator out I also replaced the pump, and thermostat. I used the Stewart piece and it is a very well built pump, using a shrouded impeller.
Stewart Water Pump.
If you recore the radiator, only the two brass tanks and the two steel straps will be reused. You can have the radiator shop install whatever nipple configuration that you desire.
If you buy a new radiator, any radiator shop can change or modify the nipples. You could even have short straight nipple(s) installed and use a 90° hose.
This would save you the additional expense of purchasing the Mirriahs.
If you do use the Mirriahs, the diameter of the motor housing is slightly larger than the stock fan motors, which will require you to massage the retaining straps and use a longer screw on the top.
You will need to pay attention to the location of the fan blade relative to the radiator AND to the shroud above the fans.
Check for proper rotation of the fans. With the fans running, hold a piece of paper behind the radiator; the paper should NOT be sucked into the radiator. Check both fans.
With the Mirriah fans installed, you may experience engine "run on". If this happens, DO NOT use a diode in the fan's wiring. If need be, I can advise you of a solution.
quote:With the Mirriah fans installed, you may experience engine "run on". If this happens, DO NOT use a diode in the fan's wiring....
....like Rocky did.
The diodes are the devices connected with the wing nuts. They mount to the vehicle structure (for the ground connection). In my picture above, they have the red wires going to them.
Agree with most of what John said.
I have not had any issues caused by the diodes, although I can not argue that there is a .7V voltage drop across the diode. This reduces the performance of the fans by at least 5% (and maybe more).
I believe that I have not had issues because my cooling system is in good condition, and I am not operating at the margins. This certainly could be an issue if there is a weakness in the cooling system, especially at low engine RPMs (like being stuck in traffic on the way to the Fun Rally in Vegas).
I have the Merriahs and are happy with them. I ran new power cables to the relays at the front to ensure max power. Run on does occur for a couple of seconds only and is no problem - just make sure you don't have the habbit of putting the car into first gear when you park and taking your foot off the clutch when you turn off the ignition - you will give your self a shock when the car jumps forward. One tip is to spray paint the motors of the merriah fans black before you mount them. Then you wont have two large shiny disk-like / head light-like things visible through the grill. Cheers Tim
Originally posted by Rocky:
... the devices connected by the wing nuts ...
who are you calling a wing nut?
I have been talking to Tara Hall and can get the radiator, but for whatever reason they can no longer get the Mirriah fans/blades. So before I buy a radiator, I need to source some new/very lightly used fans or modify their radiator. The Hall radiator does not have enough clearance between the rear of the radiator and the outlet/inlet elbows to allow for my current Flexalite sucker-style fans, so my only options are:
1. Get new Hall radiator elbows extended to give the clearance needed to use my existing fans (modifying the current wiring to utilize new temp sensors in radiator and remove load from ignition)
2. Get new front mounted pusher fans/blades (whether Mirriah/Spahl/etc.) and do same wiring upgrades with new Hall radiator.
What's your opinion? If #1, any drawbacks to extending the elbows or otherwise except it would be using older fans? If #2, anyone have a set on new/near new Mirriah's? If Spahl, which and why?
I have decided not to go with the 45degree lay-down style radiators some have suggested for aesthetic reasons.
George, I see now that the pic above does show that the fans/ring are attached - my bad.
quote:they can no longer get the Mirriah fans/blades.
Do they perhaps still have ...replacement... fans for the Mirriah motors?
Because..... I have two Mirriah fan motors that were running fine until I destroyed the front of 2511, but the fan blades are history. Yours for the cost of shipping.
Also, I noticed in your photos that your current fans are held in place with the through-the-radiator zip-tie mounts. This is not advised, as the vibrations of normal driving may cause the zip-ties to "saw" their way into the water tubes .... not good.
I'd suggest another call to Tara and then send me a PM if you're interested in the motors.
Mounting sucker fans usually requires tilting the radiator forward a little (lay down) are you sure that hasn't been done to your current setup? The lay down isn't typically as aggressive as 45 degrees in my experience. I used a ~2" bracket to move the upper radiator mounting forwad enough.
I believe the Hall Pheonix radiator is quite a bit thicker than a stock (or Fluidyne) radiator further restricting available room for sucker fans. In short option 2. may be the only viable one with a Hall Pheonix radiator.
In addition the recommended standoff for a flan blade is 3/4" for optimal efficiency and placing the Flex-a-lite shroud against the radiator usually results in the fan blades being too close to the radiator core. Standing off further requires even more free space to work with.
Have you considered the Fluidyne (or other e.g. Ron Davis) aluminum radiator? The newer Fuidyne is 5 core, PIM seems to have the cheapest prices at $585 and it has straight outlet/inlet tubes so you can create any standoff with a 90 degree hose. Modern M22x1.5 fittings allow for a number of modern programmable temp sensor options.
I would not recommend mounting any fan with the through core tie method that you currently have. Mirriah fans are an old school upgrade, modern curved blade fans move significantly more air then the Mirriah's will. If I was buying fans it would be modern ones, and you may already be aware the curved blade fans are pusher or sucker profile and not usually reversible like older straight profile fans. Sucker fans are more efficient than pushers.
Have you checked your under car coolant tubes for crud and sedimentation?
My interest was in staying with a copper core radiator rather than an aluminum radiator.
All of the hoses and belts were replaced 18 months ago along with the undercar tubes and the swirl and overflow bottles.
Hall does not have motors or blades at this time.
I really appreciate all the ideas and information all have provided. I will be doing my best to try all the tests mentioned here. I have family in critical condition in the hospital so my time with the PCar is limited right now. I think modern fans mounted in front with out modifying the radiator or modern fans behind and just extending the outlet tubes the required amount if possible sound like the best bet. Had hoped to change out the thermostat today with a RobertShaw 330-180 with brass sleeve, but I'm off to the hospital an hour away again.
Thank you for your interest and support!
On my 1972 Pantera I have a similar setup but with larger fans and a Fluidyne radiator. The car is under construction and do not yet know how the cooling performs.
The Hall Phoenix radiator is a good piece of equipment. It cools well and since it is copper will likely live longer than an aluminum radiator. The unit in my 71 was decades old and seemed like it would continue to not leak. However, it is quite a bit heavier than the Fluidyne.
Doing sucker fans with a straight-up mounted rad of any size or type, the main drawback is you will lose some skin off your knuckles in getting the hose clamps tight and fan wires connected. But it can be done, with some pain. Better to lay the rad fwd, for convenience & less blood loss. Don't forget when laying a rad fwd, you need a half-size top rad cover to block off air leakage.
A great option for fan motors is CoolCat fans!
I mounted two of these CoolCat fan motors into my Pantera and they work great. Dimensions are nearly identical to the original Lucas motors. The Coolcat motor is 3" in diameter and should fit anyplace a Lucas motor fits. It will not accept a Lucas blade however, as shaft is thicker. I encountered this when mounting my Cortina blades and merely drilled them out a hair to fit the larger shaft, and added a set screw from a set of Flex-A-Lite fans I had laying around. Contact Mike Frank at CoolCat to get a price on a pair of fan motors WITHOUT fan blades or the mounting plate shown in the pic. You can buy pusher blades relatively inexpensively elsewhere online, and the Pantera already has the mounting for the motors.
Replacement fan blades are readily available. I believe the Cortina fan blades (The Cortina 8-blade fans and their steel adapters were listed in the Gr-3 & Gr-4 Supplemental Parts Lists for Europe) are 10" diameter, and the Flex-a-Lite blades Hall sells with their Mariah pusher fans are 12" since they don't use the original fan shrouds.
The GR-3/GR-4 (Cortina) fan blades may still be available from the vendors. I don't see them on Hall's site, but they are on Wilkinson's site (Item #70 in the diagram below):
Here are replacement parts/blades from Flex-a-Lite, almost all available on Summit Racing or Amazon.
This is the fan blade like Hall uses with their Mariah fans:
Similar style, but curved blade design:
A few more generic looking 12" fan blades:
Flex-a-Lite also sells replacement 10" fan blades if you wish to try and fit them inside the original fan shrouds:
Garth's illustrated fan blade article is great! For the bargain hunters among us, if you decide the small OD Cortina 8-blade fans can be had a few bucks cheaper from E-Bay instead of a Pantera vendor, some of whom stock the assembly shown, be aware they were originally used as a sucker fan mounted directly on 4 cylinder Ford Cortina vee-belt driven water pumps. They have an oversized center hole that's filled with DeTomaso's steel adapter parts #69 and #71, plus the four metric bolts shown in the Gr-3 catalogue. This kit adapts the fan to a Lucas DC motor shaft, mounted backwards to become a ring-shrouded pusher.
Without those adapter parts, the bare plastic fan(s) will not fit anything except a Cortina water pump & pulley. Of course, if you own a lathe, some scrap metal and have a Saturday free..... People who bought the 8-blade kits from a vendor decades ago say they do in fact help lower water temps a little with stock fan motors. But today, more powerful pancake DC motors and matching larger dia fan blades move 4-6X more air than any fan blades run by stock Lucas DC motors.
When I wrote my fan/DC motor article a decade or so ago, I used an E-Bay anemometer to check actual air flows for a whole number of fans, but I never bothered to check the small Cortina 8-blade. I had a pair of 10" DC 4-blade sucker fans in a full shroud on our Pantera for a couple of years. In a test on Judy's favorite highway on the way to 'Vegas at 150 mph for ten (10.0) minutes, water temp slowly climbed from 200F to 230F on a calibrated 260F gauge. I slowed to 90 mph, & water temp slowly returned to 200F. Later that year I changed to 14" shrouded Flexilite 10-blade sucker fans; a repeat test at the same speed & road the next year showed no high-speed temp creep. Dunno about 180 mph; my tires, like my body, are getting on a bit....