Smoke from ZF Inspection Window during Engine Break-In

Not sure if the starter video will upload, but here goes.

Thanks,
john

I wouldn’t think the starter “pinion” would have that much play in it…

You may be on the right track…

Should be a simple thing to put in a switch to cut the solenoid out of the ignition circuit…

Ditto

I believe that starter is toast- a bad bearing or …..??

Larry

How exactly did you wire your gear reduction starter?

Vendors often supply a little jumper from the battery terminal to the solenoid terminal and suggest you wire it similar to a stocker by simply reconnecting the big cable back onto the starter.

Problem with that is that the still spinning starter becomes a generator when you let off the key, which can keep the solenoid engaged, which keeps the pinion engaged with the flywheel.

I'm trying to imagine how fast the armature of a PMGR starter would be spinning engaged to a flywheel turning at cam break in speed.

Larryw,

You are correct.  I had to add a small jumper from the battery terminal to the solenoid terminal. 

I like Rocky's idea of putting a relay on the solenoid terminal.

I'm going to try use my original motorcraft starter today and hope it has enough torque to crank the new engine over. 

There is a very effective way to make a proper installation of the PMGR starters by adding one 12ga wire and rearranging the big cables on the big existing relay on the firewall.
perhaps someone has the link or if I don’t see anything later I’ll try and post a diagram.

Here you go

Here's some photos of how to do it.

Remove that little jumper you added.

At the firewall solenoid you will move the big cable from the big stud on the passengers side of the solenoid over to join the big cable on the drivers side of the solenoid and secure.

Connect the big cable to the big stud on the starter.

Add a 12 ga wire from the vacated big stud on the passenger side of the solenoid and run it beside the big cable and connect to the solenoid terminal on the starter.

You are done.

I found this diagram.  It makes sense that the high current starter connection goes direct to the battery and the starter solenoid would then be switched using the factory solenoid on the firewall.

Thanks,

John

#2551

My photos show an installation as per figure 5.

Thanks Larry,

I will get his rewired today.  Looks like the starter will be good enough to finish the cam break in.  Summitt sells rebuild kits for this starter so I will being doing that next.

Best Regards,
John

#2551

FYI:  

With an estimated cam break-in speed of 2,000 rpm, 164 tooth flywheel, and 10 tooth (estimated) starter pinion, the starter's OUTPUT SHAFT would be turning 32,800  rpm.  Note that that is the speed of the OUTPUT SHAFT.

Factoring in the starter's internal gear reduction being driven in "reverse", the starter's armature would likely be rotating at over 100,000 rpm.  

At 3:1 gear reduction:  98,400 rpm

At 4:1 gear reduction:  131,200 rpm

If the starter has a 9 tooth pinion, the rpm would be even higher.  It's lucky that the starter didn't explode !!

John

Thats scary.

I tried again with the updated wiring and I'm getting the same results.  I believe the start gear may be hanging up on the flywheel but I'm not 100% sure.  At this point I'm so frustrated I'm considering pulling the ZF out to make sure I don't have some other issue.

Pretty sure the battery and starter are both done at this point.

Does anyone have a better starter recommendation?  Mine is a Powermaster 9630.

Thanks,

John

#2551

A favorite starter has been a part number from DB Electric listed for ford small block w/ manual transmission. It is an aftermarket version of the stock ford part v the hitachi based item you have.
Very cost effective.
your ring gear may not have liked its recent adventure.  
Need to add that you may have to exchange your starter mounting studs for slightly longer ones or gently trim the DB starter flanges to accommodate.

could the starter pinion and flywheel gear be mismatched pitch?

I mounted the starter when I had the engine out and it seemed to match up well but I didn't try cranking it at that point.  I'm not hearing anything like a starter hanging up but I guess anything is possible.

My next step is to replace the starter now that it is wired correctly and try again.

Hopefully I'm not missing something simple like a clutch or throwout bearing issue.  The ZF is definitely in neatral so clutch, pressure plate and throw out bearing should be out of the equation?

Thanks,
John

Great folks to deal with, highly recommend

Thanks for the info.  Is this the actual part # you are using too?  #410-14033.

I checked their website for Pantera and didnt see anything.

Thanks,

John

Even if you found a pantera on their website, it would be the old-school OEM starter as installed in the Pantera.

This is a PMGR upgrade starter that is a direct boltin replacement.

The only issue you may run into is the need for longer studs as the starter base plate is thicker.

you have already resolved the minor wiring changes required

you can use either of those two numbers in their listing to do a search on eBay or Amazon. DB does sell through Amazon, IIRC.

Larry

You might also consider using flange nuts. They have a reduced hex size.  IIRC, thread size is M10-1.5.  

John

I've found the best starters are the ones made by Meziere. They use a motor that's smaller in diameter and a bit longer than the motors other gear reduction starters use. I replaced a Powermaster with the Meziere and immediately noticed it spun my motor over significantly faster than the Powermaster, which was supposedly a "high RPM" starter. Unfortunately, it's probably the most expensive starter too but in this case, you do get what you pay for.

https://www.summitracing.com/p.../mez-ts408/make/ford

that is expensive but may be what I need.  This new engine is 10:5 to one compression and is proving to be very tight.  Hopefully it spins better once it's broken in.

John, I had a 427 cubic inch SVO motor with 11.3:1 compression. I tried starters from CSR, Powermaster and Meziere. The CSR and Powermaster struggled when hot whereas the Meziere spun the motor over easily; hot or cold. Even when cold, the Meziere spun the motor at a much higher RPM than the others. When you hold it in your hands, you realize why it's expensive. I also required a modification to the nose piece of the starter and Meziere was happy to handle it for me, as the starters are made in-house at their facility in California.

I will order one of these for sure.  I noticed on the Summit website says it doesn't fit a Pantera.  I wonder if the nose has to be modified just like yours?
Thanks,

John

John,

Mine had to be modified because I had a 157 tooth flywheel. Otherwise, I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t fit a Pantera.

I’d call Summit and ask the question. It’s possible a customer had a header interference issue and Summit assumed all Panteras would encounter the same problem. If you don’t get satisfaction with Summit, call Meziere.

Dave

You should probably call Meziere (or however you spell it) direct, and see if they have one modified for your car.

If you modify one from Summit, you won’t be able to return it!

I’m sure you already have this figured out.

I wonder what the difference is in the nose?  The starter I used was a PMGR for a Ford Truck, it bolted right in once I installed a set of longer studs.

Rocky

Thanks for the all the info.  I called Meziere direct, and they had no notes saying  the starter had to be modified.  However, I could tell the tech person didn't know much about Panteras as he just said it was a Ford starter and not much else.  I made some measurements based on their online dwgs and seems like it should fit in the 2D world

Thanks again,

John

John,

The Meziere starter does not need to be modified for a Pantera. It will work fine, out of the box.

Mine had to be modified because my flywheel and bellhousing were non-stock. It had nothing to do with the fact it was being installed in a Pantera. 

Thanks David,

I have one on order.  I'm officially collecting starters now.  I'm in about $1200 for all of them.  The good news is I will have spares sitting in the garage.  This project has definitely taught me some tough lessons.

Can't wait to get this installed and finish with the cam break in.

Thanks Again,

John

Follow Up: The starter issue has become quite expensive.

I received the Meziere TS408 on Thursday and installed immediately.  It did fit but took some time to get it clocked properly.  It appears this start is hanging up as well and needs to be shimmed almost .250".  I'm waiting on Ford shims to arrive today.

After reading thru Power Master and Meziere alignment specs it seems that they both need significant shimming. 

The DB electrical starter should show up tomorrow so I may give that one a try since the gear drive looks closer to the stock starter.  I know that my original starter wasn't shimmed and worked fine before I pulled the engine for rebuild.

Just curious if everyone is having to shim their aftermarket starters?

Attached are pics of the nose on the stock starter, Power Master and Meziere.

Thanks,

John

#2551

The middle picture appears to be for an automatic transmission.The first is a stock starter for a manual transmission.

The first picture is the original motor craft starter.

Second is the power master 9603 which says it can be used for both automatic and manual transmissions.

Third is the Meziere starter.

Thanks,

John

In my experience, the DB starter does not require any shims

And as for any single starter being applicable for a manual, and an automatic, that is simply not true. Unless, of course you want to consider shiming to be a normal installation step, when it does not need to be. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

Larry

Aren’t there different tooth counts on flywheel(s) and flex plates for the automatics?

Does the original starter have the same number of teeth on the starter gear in all three examples?

My Meziere starter did not require any shims in order to get the correct pinion depth. Are you using an aftermarket flywheel? If so, what is it?

I just checked all three starter teeth count.  The original motor craft has 9 teeth and the Power Master and Meziere each have 11 teeth.

I'm using the factory flywheel.  The only thing I could think of is if the engine builder put the wrong flywheel on when he used it to balance the engine.  I don't think that is likely though.  Is there an "easy" way to check the flywheel count with it in the car?

Thanks,

John

Here is the caption in the specs of the Power Master 9603 (PWM-9603)

The DB electric website says theirs has 10 teeth so one more than stock.  Guess I need to go count my original starter again. Pretty sure I counted 9 the first time.
Thanks,

John

It isn't the number of teeth that is important it is the distance the starter gear is extended past the mounting face of the starter. For a Pantera you need a starter that has the gear extension that matches your first photo. Just ask for a starter  that fits a 1992 Ford F250 with 351 and manual transmission.