So, how bad is it going to be?

Sissa,

Please describe your motor, is it stock, never been apart, or highly modified, or? I am especially interested in the short block, to determine if it has ever been apart?

When you say it won't turn, what is happening when you turn the key to the start position, what noise are you hearing. Would it bepossible to take a voltage reading on the battery.

If the motor is cranking, but just not firing, you should pull the distributor cap & watch the rotor while the engine cranks.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

George,

The pervious owner had done a bit of work to the engine, but I wouldn't call it highly modified. I was told that the engine is from a '71 (mine is a '73), was align bored... (I can't remember much more and don't have access to my notes this weekend), has a mallory ignition, weiand intake...

When I turn the key to the start position, it sounds like the starter tried to crank the engine but it won't turn over. The engine does not crank. Watching the voltage at the battery, the volts drop rapidly as if there is a large draw of current (13.6 -> 9.7v).

Mr Bagama,

I would suggest as a first step pulling the starter motor and having the guys at the auto parts store testing it. Its the easiest thing to do at this point, at doesn't cost a thing, just time.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Problem one sounds like a clogged fuel filter. Problem two sounds like a weak battery from limited running time. With all do respect to George who knows a hell of a lot more than I ever will. I would have the battery checked first. It is a lot easier than pulling the starter.

I was thinking things are more serious. Is a seized motor a possibility at this point or do I need to give you some more info?

Have you tried jumping off the battery ?

If you really suspect a seized motor, then remove the bulhead covers and put a socket on the crank and see if it will turn by hand.

I'd have to go with George's diagnosis on this one, it sounds awfully like the starter motor. If its just not been used in a long time it can be a sticking issue, you can sometimes free it up by rocking the car back and forth in gear. That should also allow you to feel if the motor is trying to turn at all too, quicker and easier than the first option of removing the bulkhead.

Julian

Battery is strong. I'll check the starter out and we'll go from there. Thank you all so far.

The stumbling you describe sounds like carburator icing. It can happen as high as 45 degrees if the humidity is high,

I'll address the stumbling once I can actually get the car started again. It may be related to a previous stumbling problem.
Tonight I checked the voltage at the starter and I'm only getting 5.36V. At this point I'm assuming this is at least part of the problem. The connectors at the starter solenoid are a little corroded. Is that the next logical place to look?
I was also able to turn the flywheel relatively easily. The car is also kept in a semi-heated garage that gets no colder than 50F.

Sissa,

If you have 13 volts at the battery, but only 5 volts at the starter, then there is a tremendous voltage drop somewhere, you should see almost the same voltage at the starter as you see at the battery. Five volts is not enough to crank the starter motor. Good troubleshooting.

Either one of the battery cable connections are dirty, or the contacts of the starter relay are more toasted than I am. There are 4 cable connections on a stock car; one at the battery, two at the starter relay and one at the starter. There must be a set of contacts in the circuit as well. A stock circuit employs the remote Ford starter relay, if your car has a newer mini starter, the contacts will be integral to the starter solenoid. However, the voltage drop is occuring prior to the solenoid.

Using your voltmeter, and the same technique you used to find the voltage drop at the starter, measure the voltage at each cable connection, one at a time, until you find where the voltage is dropping. At the battery, measure the voltage by touching the meter lead to the cable end clamp, not to the battery post.

You are close to having this problem solved.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Voltage at the solenoid was fine as long as the starter was disconnected. Once the starter was connected the voltage was bad again. Previous voltage reading taken at the starter was with the starter connected.
I removed the starter, master craft 3132 (looks to be aftermarket) and will seek a replacement tomorrow.
Not much new info but I figured if anyone else has a similar problem in the future it might as well be documented.

ht4tchr,

With the starter connected you had a closed circuit and current flow, with the starter removed you have an open circuit and no current flowing. There will be no voltage drop unless there is current flowing. The open circuit test (starter removed) doesn't prove anything.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Ok, just for kicks I had the starter tested - it's fine and back in place. Hooking the VOM to the battery side of the solenoid and to ground shows the same voltage as at the battery (ie: it's hot all the time). Turning the key to start drops the voltage to 6V or so. Voltage at the starter side of the solenoid shows zero and then about 6V after turning the key to start.
That's as far as I've gotten so far. What does this tell me? Anything? Also noticed a dangling black wire hanging in the vacinity of the solenoid that looks like it comes out of the major wire bundle near the voltage regulator. It looks like it was cut and I cant figure out where it went to. Any signifigance/ideas? I need to get a closer look somehow.

quote:

Originally posted by ht4tchr:
Hooking the VOM to the battery side of the solenoid and to ground shows the same voltage as at the battery (ie: it's hot all the time). Turning the key to start drops the voltage to 6V or so. That's as far as I've gotten so far. What does this tell me?

The cable between the battery & starter relay has a bad connection at one end or the other, OR the battery itself is bad. Attach your meter probe to the battery post and perform the same test, if the voltage still drops to 6 volts,its the battery. If the voltage doesn't drop at the battery post its a cable connection, in that case, the connection at the battery would be my first suspect.

your friend on the DTBB, George

You keep mentioning starter RELAY. Is that the same as the solenoid? As per my second post in this topic, The voltage measured across the battery dropped while trying to start. I'll check things out again tonight. Thanks!

ht4tchr,

The small device mounted remotely from the engine, that the battery cable is connected to, is the starter relay.

The device mounted integral to the starter motor, that engages the pinion gear of the starter with the ring gear of the engine, is commonly referred to as the solenoid. Some cars do not have a separate starting relay, the solenoid performs both functions.

Your semantical friend on the DTBB, George

maybe the reason that it won't turn over is it might have a blown head gasket. i had somthing similar happen to me with my 69 road runner it ran rough then i shut it off came back to start it again and it would not turn over pulled #1 plug and out came the coolant.

I would have to guess your battery is bad. It may show a full 12-13 volts at the terminals but could still fail a load test. If the voltage is dropping that much at the battery terminals with the starter engaged its the only thing I can think of.

I tried jumping - same result. Tried a different, known good battery - same result. Had my battery tested today - shows it's good. I'm stumped.

ht4tchr,

It's very important to pay attention where you place the volt meter test probe when you attempt to crank the motor.

Place the test lead on the battery post, not the clamp on the end of the cable; what voltage do you read when attempting to crank the motor? Next place the test lead on the clamp itself, same voltage or lower? Then place the test lead on the connector at the other end of the cable, where it bolts to the starter relay, afterwards place the test lead on the actual stud of the starter relay. The idea is to determine exactly where the voltage drop is occuring.

If the battery is known to be good, and the voltage drop is occuring at the battery post, then it is time to try and turn the crankshaft by hand (because the starter motor already tested good).

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Have we been through the grounding part? Very important. Take a peice of wire ...at least 10 gauge or maybe 12...clamp it to the battery ground terminal...now put the other end around a bolt at the back of the motor, natrualy you want a clean surface, bare metal..Just let the wire lay next to the car..this is just a test...Now crank it...power cannot flow unless it has a ground to go to.

If it still won't turn over...we can use the another wire to arc the starter straight from the positive...only to eliminate the battery, and the starter...in nuetral with switch off..we cat put 12 volts directly from the battery to the starter. If it turns over, both are ok....now we know it is between..we will get it.....if we find what is good ..only bad will be left..

Well, after chashing electrons for three days, I tried one las thing. I re-removed the starter from the engine and tried to start. The started worked, no problem. I then started removing spark plugs. First one looked fine. Second one was essentially crushed and gouged. Uh-oh! Ther rest look fine. I then pulled the valve cove on the side of the damaged plug and found broken pieces. UH-OH! What next? See attached...

One more...

Last one...

ht4tchr,

you've dropped a valve, here's what the inside will look like

Since this appears to have happened while you were cranking the motor, the damage to the motor's internals may not be terminal (no holes in the block or head). A complete teardown is necessary however, to assess the condition of all parts, the crank, the connecting rod, etc.

A note for everyone else,

This is a classic example of what happens when you run the stock two piece valves, its a ticking time bomb in each persons car. This happened to ht4tchr in his driveway, while starting the car, NOT at high rpm.

The previous owner had this motor apart. If he had spoken with somebody who knows Clevelands, he would have been instructed to replace the oem valves. Lecture over.

George

I'm planning on removing the head first, just to take a look. Is there any reason I shouldn't do this and just pull the engine?

I was late chiming in but that was going to be my sugestion; pull the valve cover and plugs to see if anything was out of sorts before spending all your time with the starter and damaging it more (as well as other things such as the starter. The noise you mentioned was a big key.

I think pulling the head is a must. You will no doubt get an idea of how bad it is when you get to that point; damage piston, scrapes on sidewall and damage rings. Even if you find damage something you could live with I would also see about dropping the oil pan to make sure there are no loose fragments floating around. It's a job removing it (I did mine) but you can if you have the removable cross brace.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by PartTimeAdult:
The stumbling you describe sounds like carburator icing. It can happen as high as 45 degrees if the humidity is high,

Carb ice takes a little time to develop. If he is just moving it around in the drive or garage, it doesn't have time to develop. I don't know about cars but when we got it in airplanes I had seen it happen with outside tems in the 70's.

Gary

The way I see things, it's both bad and good. If the engine does have to come out, I can address some other things in the engine bay without it in there. Mostly cosmetics, but also better access to figure out where that one loose wire goes, making the cross member removable, learning about this engines internals, etc... Too bad that if it had to happen, it didn't happen 3-4 months ago.

I got that way with my engine. There were several issues I kept "patching". It's just time to remove it and go through it. In the mean time I had another engine built. We are just awaiting the engine builder to finshis putting his shop back together after a fire.

Gary

You've got to pull the motor, you have a rod bearing that was squeezed pretty damn hard & is probably ruined, the rod journal needs inspection, and the connecting rod could be bent. Your piston may also be damaged beyond the point where it is safe to continue using it.

It is easier to pull the heads once the motor is removed, so why torture yourself, pull the motor.

Both heads MUST come off & the valves, retainers & keepers replaced, or else this may happen again.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Did you say it was idling when it did this?

Gary

Yes, it was idling (roughly) when it seems to have happened.

It's easy for us to tell you to remove your starter, or remove you engine, etc but you are the one who will have to make the decision (and deal with the consequences). Removing your head isn't going to be that much harder then removing your starter. If you were idling, who knows maybe just a couple nicks, maybe not. No one knows. Question is also going to fall on what you are doing with the car. Was a tear down in your future plans? Were you planning on doing it next winter? Do you just want to get a few more dirves out of it before you do?

I certainly don't see any reason you have to pull off the second set of heads IF the first set only has a few bumps and scrapes but like I said, that is up to you. We do not bear the consequences of what you do.

Gary

I have been in the Wheaton area a couple times. If you ever get to souther IN let me know.

Gary

I had no plans of doing any engine work - until needed. As far as I know it was recently rebuilt before I bought it. I found my notes and it reminded me that quite a bit had been done to the engine, including new pistons, oil pump... I had no problems with it and it was strong and reliable.
All I want to do is fix the problem at hand as easily as possible but correctly. Pulling the engine and a complete teardown seems crazy with my experience, but if that is what's needed I'll just have to learn how to do it.
Be prepared for questions