David, sorry I hadn't seen this article before you closed the books on it - however, maybe this advice can help others.
I came across a good article on the web some time ago when I was helping someone that was a bit stressed out about a ticket - it is Ontario centric, but I'm sure a lot of it applies to other jurisdictions.
The net of it is, you have the right to disclosure from the prosecution, by sending a written request for a boat-load of information prior to the court date, if they don't send it, you have every right to request the case be thrown out, they will likely just give you a date in the future, and very often that date (because it is given on the spur of the moment) does not coincide with a date the officer will be scheduled to spend the day in court - if he doesn't show up, the case is dismissed - if they don't provide the required documentation prior to the second court date, you are very likely to get the case dismissed - or if they try to drag it out even further, it can be dismissed as the courts may agree that they have violated your right to be tried within a reasonable amount of time.
Net, for the person I was helping out, they went with one of the traffic ticket specialists (OTT I think), made sure that they defined up-front that a 'win' would be the case dismissed (if you say getting rid of the points is fine, then that's all they'll try to do). I think it cost $200 all said and done - no need to go to court, and the case was finally thrown out.
Here's the article for you do-it-yourselfers in the crowd...
http://www.magma.ca/~fyst/
Last thought - I have a coworker who received a ticket that had an error on it (wrong location) - when he went to court, they acknowledged their error and 'innocently' asked if they could change it, he said NO, and that he was not at the location identified on the ticket at the time and date indicated - the case was immediately thrown out. If he had said 'yes', they would have had him.
Interesting, but Quebec is different. They don't have to send you anything, nor does the officer have to be in court. They can even make mistakes and correct them. And if you're English it's even worse - they simply don't care about you.
I was able to beat many points in Ontario using TICKETS.COM. But consumer protection against Provincial laws is just not available in Quebec. So we do what our forefathers did, we lie, cheat and steal our way out of trouble.
I was able to beat many points in Ontario using TICKETS.COM. But consumer protection against Provincial laws is just not available in Quebec. So we do what our forefathers did, we lie, cheat and steal our way out of trouble.
So here's the update. My lawyer was NOT able to negotiate a settlement. The prosecutor claims the speed as recorded is absolute and not negotiable.
We have a new court date, March 17. I have found a new defense lawyer who is a car guy that specializes in these cases.
I will let you know what happens - provided they allow inmates access to a computer.
We have a new court date, March 17. I have found a new defense lawyer who is a car guy that specializes in these cases.
I will let you know what happens - provided they allow inmates access to a computer.
Don't worry, I'll bring my laptop in for you to use during visiting hours. 
Mark
Mark
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deniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
While she was 'flying' down the road, a
woman passed over a bridge only to find a cop with a radar gun on the
other side lying in wait.
The cop pulled her over, walked up to the car, with
that classic patronizing smirk we all know and love, asked, 'What's your hurry?'
To which she replied, 'I'm late for work.'
'Oh yeah,' said the cop, 'what do you do?'
I'm a rectum stretcher,' she responded.
The cop stammered, 'A what? A rectum stretcher?
And just what does a rectum stretcher do?'
'Well,' she said, 'I start by inserting one finger,
Then work my way up to two fingers, then three, then four, then with my
whole hand in. I work from side to side until I can get both hands in,
and then I slowly but surely stretch it, until it's about 6 feet wide.'
'And just what the hell do you do with a 6 foot asshole? ' he asked.
'You give him a radar gun and park him behind a Bridge...'
Traffic Ticket - $95.00
Court Costs - $45.00
Look on the Cop's Face................PRICELESS
woman passed over a bridge only to find a cop with a radar gun on the
other side lying in wait.
The cop pulled her over, walked up to the car, with
that classic patronizing smirk we all know and love, asked, 'What's your hurry?'
To which she replied, 'I'm late for work.'
'Oh yeah,' said the cop, 'what do you do?'
I'm a rectum stretcher,' she responded.
The cop stammered, 'A what? A rectum stretcher?
And just what does a rectum stretcher do?'
'Well,' she said, 'I start by inserting one finger,
Then work my way up to two fingers, then three, then four, then with my
whole hand in. I work from side to side until I can get both hands in,
and then I slowly but surely stretch it, until it's about 6 feet wide.'
'And just what the hell do you do with a 6 foot asshole? ' he asked.
'You give him a radar gun and park him behind a Bridge...'
Traffic Ticket - $95.00
Court Costs - $45.00
Look on the Cop's Face................PRICELESS
David,
I did a bit more searching, and can't believe the number of forum posts out there of people complaining about the Quebec courts when it comes to speeding tickets.
I found one case of someone who beat a ticket - it was a Rabbi rushing to a circumcision, and the judge accepted his argument.
There's another post I just found (from 2008) with some advice and suggested contacts:
http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/v...wthread.php?p=743250
Here's some of the pertinent stuff...
>>>
The courts are obliged to serve you in English or French as you choose ... you have a right to be tried in English or given an interpreter.
In Quebec the cops don't need to show up in court. So he might not be there. Although you can ask for a postponement, and state that you would like to summon the cop (witness). ...
Other than that, here are a few ticket lawyers/paralegals:
1. www.sosticket.ca They normally ask for people to contact them 7 days before the court date.
2. (514) 767-4398 This is the number of a guy, who is a lawyer. He is a moderator on montrealracing.com, is a biker and a tuner driver.
3. (514) 842-4649 this is the number for another lawyer - "Emile H Benamor"'
SOStickets is the cheapest one of the above. They charge $90+tx flat fee, which includes 2 points (if they get that off). For every extra point that they get off its an extra $60 i think. The other ones too are not very expensive, will just cost you $40-50 extra...
Another thing, montreal lawyers are more inclined on making plea bargains... If you don't want that then discuss that with them
>>>
Hope the above helps.
Good Luck, and keep us posted!
I did a bit more searching, and can't believe the number of forum posts out there of people complaining about the Quebec courts when it comes to speeding tickets.
I found one case of someone who beat a ticket - it was a Rabbi rushing to a circumcision, and the judge accepted his argument.
There's another post I just found (from 2008) with some advice and suggested contacts:
http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/v...wthread.php?p=743250
Here's some of the pertinent stuff...
>>>
The courts are obliged to serve you in English or French as you choose ... you have a right to be tried in English or given an interpreter.
In Quebec the cops don't need to show up in court. So he might not be there. Although you can ask for a postponement, and state that you would like to summon the cop (witness). ...
Other than that, here are a few ticket lawyers/paralegals:
1. www.sosticket.ca They normally ask for people to contact them 7 days before the court date.
2. (514) 767-4398 This is the number of a guy, who is a lawyer. He is a moderator on montrealracing.com, is a biker and a tuner driver.
3. (514) 842-4649 this is the number for another lawyer - "Emile H Benamor"'
SOStickets is the cheapest one of the above. They charge $90+tx flat fee, which includes 2 points (if they get that off). For every extra point that they get off its an extra $60 i think. The other ones too are not very expensive, will just cost you $40-50 extra...
Another thing, montreal lawyers are more inclined on making plea bargains... If you don't want that then discuss that with them
>>>
Hope the above helps.
Good Luck, and keep us posted!
And one other thing, I've got to believe that even in Quebec you are entitled to full disclosure from the prosecution. And, unless I'm wrong about this, you should have your lawyer immediately request disclosure of all evidence that the prosecution has in the case - and request it be provided in English (and get dated proof of delivery of your request). If they don't deliver the information, then, in court you or your lawyer requests that the case be dismissed (or a stay of proceedings - whatever the correct terminology is in Quebec). The prosecution will likely ask for an adjournment to a future date, and if you get that far, then your lawyer will either make some progress on the plea front, or will request that the officer be summoned at the future date as a witness (I believe even in Quebec if you request they subpoena the officer, then he has to show up, the third thing your lawyer may do (if your next court date is far enough in the future) is put forward a motion that your constitutional right to a speedy trial has been infringed.
All of the above is done for a couple of reasons...
1) To ensure you get a fair trial - the law is there for your protection, if they are not willing to disclose evidence, how can you prepare a proper defense? And if they drag things on too long, then your memory (and that of the witness) of what happened becomes hazier - again, impacting your right to a fair trial.
2) To ensure that they really believe prosecuting you is the right thing for the court system to spend their time doing (if they give up because of the challenges you're making, then obviously, their case isn't strong enough, or they think they'd be better off prosecuting people who don't put up a fight).
Of course, I'm not a lawyer, and I certainly haven't read much about Quebec legal proceedings, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
All of the above is done for a couple of reasons...
1) To ensure you get a fair trial - the law is there for your protection, if they are not willing to disclose evidence, how can you prepare a proper defense? And if they drag things on too long, then your memory (and that of the witness) of what happened becomes hazier - again, impacting your right to a fair trial.
2) To ensure that they really believe prosecuting you is the right thing for the court system to spend their time doing (if they give up because of the challenges you're making, then obviously, their case isn't strong enough, or they think they'd be better off prosecuting people who don't put up a fight).
Of course, I'm not a lawyer, and I certainly haven't read much about Quebec legal proceedings, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
Russ,
Thanks for the leads and your help with this. Unfortunately, I have a final court date in less than a week so I'm stuck with what I've got. The lawyer figures he can at least negotiate a few MPH off the offence which would cut the demerit points to less than half. Any financial saving will be taken up by his fees for sure.
Your idea is fine, but my problem is that according to the Judge and Quebec law, any evidence I wish to present has to be able to withstand cross examination. Which means that if I used Road and Track's 0-60 times for a Pantera then I need to bring the Editor of Road and Track or a testing expert to court. Same with a physicist to deal with my formula for linear acceleration. I then have to have a GPS expert testify regarding the data recorded on my GPS. At that rate I am in for thousands in expenses for these experts. That, I guess, is the whole point. So we suck it up and negotiate - if we're lucky.
On the upside, I have fought and won or reduced almost all of the tickets I got in the past 10 years. The downside is that prior to that I also lost my licence. Twice. Now with the new laws in place, I am getting ready to watch them take the cat away one day and crush it into a little cube.
When that happens, I'll have some time to start over with my next dream Pantera. This time, a black primer shell with zero comforts, 800 HP and 20" wheels.
Thanks for the leads and your help with this. Unfortunately, I have a final court date in less than a week so I'm stuck with what I've got. The lawyer figures he can at least negotiate a few MPH off the offence which would cut the demerit points to less than half. Any financial saving will be taken up by his fees for sure.
Your idea is fine, but my problem is that according to the Judge and Quebec law, any evidence I wish to present has to be able to withstand cross examination. Which means that if I used Road and Track's 0-60 times for a Pantera then I need to bring the Editor of Road and Track or a testing expert to court. Same with a physicist to deal with my formula for linear acceleration. I then have to have a GPS expert testify regarding the data recorded on my GPS. At that rate I am in for thousands in expenses for these experts. That, I guess, is the whole point. So we suck it up and negotiate - if we're lucky.
On the upside, I have fought and won or reduced almost all of the tickets I got in the past 10 years. The downside is that prior to that I also lost my licence. Twice. Now with the new laws in place, I am getting ready to watch them take the cat away one day and crush it into a little cube.
When that happens, I'll have some time to start over with my next dream Pantera. This time, a black primer shell with zero comforts, 800 HP and 20" wheels.
What if you sold your cat to someone (a spouse perhaps?) for say, $50 and then leased it back indefinitely for say, $1/month, if you get caught for speeding, would they be able to take it away and crush it if you were not the owner?
Just a hypothetical question the next time you're talking to your lawyer :-)
And just to be clear on my advice above, I'm not suggesting that you present any evidence yourself, but merely that you request they provide you with all of their evidence in advance of the case and in English (this includes copies of any notes the officer wrote down as well as copies of both sides of the ticket) - this should be your legal right, and if they don't comply, then the judge should either throw out the case or give them an adjournment to put together and send you the material - oftentimes the prosecution isn't up to the bother of this and will give up. But as you say, it's only a week away, so you'd have to get the request couriered to them ASAP - two weeks is considered plenty of notice, but even a few days may be sufficient in the eyes of the court.
I'm just encouraging you to fight tooth and nail, I wouldn't want to see a cat smooshed into a little cube in the future because this one is on your record.
Good Luck!
Just a hypothetical question the next time you're talking to your lawyer :-)
And just to be clear on my advice above, I'm not suggesting that you present any evidence yourself, but merely that you request they provide you with all of their evidence in advance of the case and in English (this includes copies of any notes the officer wrote down as well as copies of both sides of the ticket) - this should be your legal right, and if they don't comply, then the judge should either throw out the case or give them an adjournment to put together and send you the material - oftentimes the prosecution isn't up to the bother of this and will give up. But as you say, it's only a week away, so you'd have to get the request couriered to them ASAP - two weeks is considered plenty of notice, but even a few days may be sufficient in the eyes of the court.
I'm just encouraging you to fight tooth and nail, I wouldn't want to see a cat smooshed into a little cube in the future because this one is on your record.
Good Luck!
quote:What if you sold your cat to someone (a spouse perhaps?) for say, $50 and then leased it back indefinitely for say, $1/month, if you get caught for speeding, would they be able to take it away and crush it if you were not the owner?
AWESOME!!!
Man you Canadian have it rough up there ...and there is so much land you should have an AUTOBAHN with speed limits to match.
Ron
Ron
David,
I would be willing to act as an "expert winess" on acceleration and GPS. (We engineer the installation GPS units on our aircraft as part of Avionics upgrades.)
I would need some short time to review your evidence submission and prepare.
HTH.
Bohdan
I would be willing to act as an "expert winess" on acceleration and GPS. (We engineer the installation GPS units on our aircraft as part of Avionics upgrades.)
I would need some short time to review your evidence submission and prepare.
HTH.
Bohdan
Points, tickets and insurance....
I spoke to my insurance broker (State Farm) regarding speeding tickets and insurance rates.
I have an allowance of 2 speeding tickets before my rates go up. These speeding tickets can be 10kmh or 30kph over. It doesn't matter. Nor do the amount of points matter to my insurance company. Points have eveything to do with the Ministry of Transportation. If you get 15 points, the ministry will take your licence away, not the insurance company.
If you are leaning towards losing your licence from excessive points, then it makes all the sense in the world to go and fight the ticket and reduce points. If you don't have alot of points and you go to court to only have the ticket reduced in speed and no points, then you've lost a days pay to only have the ticket fine reduced. You're insurance will still see "a ticket", points or no points.
Will
I spoke to my insurance broker (State Farm) regarding speeding tickets and insurance rates.
I have an allowance of 2 speeding tickets before my rates go up. These speeding tickets can be 10kmh or 30kph over. It doesn't matter. Nor do the amount of points matter to my insurance company. Points have eveything to do with the Ministry of Transportation. If you get 15 points, the ministry will take your licence away, not the insurance company.
If you are leaning towards losing your licence from excessive points, then it makes all the sense in the world to go and fight the ticket and reduce points. If you don't have alot of points and you go to court to only have the ticket reduced in speed and no points, then you've lost a days pay to only have the ticket fine reduced. You're insurance will still see "a ticket", points or no points.
Will
quote:Originally posted by INZOWHO:
Next big ticket I'm going to try this one:
For most of us it is not the fine that is the problem. It is the demerit points and what the insurance industry will do to you if you get enough points against you.
I have NOT tried this myself but I know two guys that swear by it.
When you get the ticket. Sign it and mail in the payment by check only ADD an additional 10 dollars to the amount. The courts will realize you have overpaid and mail a refund for the 10 dollars. DONT cash the refund. If the accounting department has an outstanding financial issue they will not send the case number for closure. No closure, No conviction, No points. Apparantly you can keep the conviction and points off the books pretty much indefinately.
I have no idea if a stunt like this will work in the U.S.
If it really does work, it's a pretty slick way to keep a clean driving record.
Doug M
Not true
http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/ticket.asp
I am waiting for that 15 point ticket I'm bound to get. Which is why I need to keep zero points in my account at all times.
In court on Tuesday with a new lawyer. Will let you know what happens.
Regards,
Bernie Madoff
In court on Tuesday with a new lawyer. Will let you know what happens.
Regards,
Bernie Madoff
Will,
Thanks for the heads up. I had my doubts as to whether these guys were bs'ing me or not. Never got the chance to try it out. Last ticket I got was in the Mrs. honda civic, go figure. Not that I didn't deserve a few, just got lucky.
Doug M
Thanks for the heads up. I had my doubts as to whether these guys were bs'ing me or not. Never got the chance to try it out. Last ticket I got was in the Mrs. honda civic, go figure. Not that I didn't deserve a few, just got lucky.
Doug M
Man you Canadian have it rough up there ...and there is so much land you should have an AUTOBAHN with speed limits to match.
Ron
____________________________________________
Unfortunately, while we have some great driving roads, we also have a population that fervently believes "speed kills". It is a matter of cherished belief in Canada that a bored idiot driving a '74 Pinto with iffy brakes causing havoc by going 10 km/h below the limit is OK, but a competent, attentive driver who has invested in a mechanically optimized high performance vehicle is a public menace if they exceed the speed limit by any amount.
In Canada, we have 3,000 traffic fatalities per year and this causes the Safety Nazis to demand ever more draconian laws that take all the joy out of driving (instead of pushing for safer roads and better driver training, which might actually do something to address the problem). At the same time, we have on the order of 23,000 deaths annually due to preventable medical errors in our hospitals. No one says a damn thing about that, though, because our precious universal health care system is a sacred cow.
My answer is to try not to think about the lunacy too much lest I lose what little remains of my own sanity, and simply invest in a good radar detector. Then, if I pick up a ticket here and there, I simply look at it as just yet another tax I have to pay for the privilege of living in this lotus eating la-la land.
Ron
____________________________________________
Unfortunately, while we have some great driving roads, we also have a population that fervently believes "speed kills". It is a matter of cherished belief in Canada that a bored idiot driving a '74 Pinto with iffy brakes causing havoc by going 10 km/h below the limit is OK, but a competent, attentive driver who has invested in a mechanically optimized high performance vehicle is a public menace if they exceed the speed limit by any amount.
In Canada, we have 3,000 traffic fatalities per year and this causes the Safety Nazis to demand ever more draconian laws that take all the joy out of driving (instead of pushing for safer roads and better driver training, which might actually do something to address the problem). At the same time, we have on the order of 23,000 deaths annually due to preventable medical errors in our hospitals. No one says a damn thing about that, though, because our precious universal health care system is a sacred cow.
My answer is to try not to think about the lunacy too much lest I lose what little remains of my own sanity, and simply invest in a good radar detector. Then, if I pick up a ticket here and there, I simply look at it as just yet another tax I have to pay for the privilege of living in this lotus eating la-la land.
quote:a bored idiot driving a '74 Pinto
Good grief, you are painting a bleak picture, but I agree with every word, except bored idiot. My girlfriend in the last year of high school had a 74 pinto and she wasn't boring at all.
Right on Peter! Well said.
As a matter of fact, I have family who have been marketing medical software that prevents mistakes in patient medication in hospitals. Although they have sold these systems to hospitals around the globe, making sales in Canada is next to impossible.
As for protecting ourselves from speed freak police, we are not as free as you folks in the West. Drivers in Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island are further preyed upon by being restricted from owning radar detectors.
As a matter of fact, I have family who have been marketing medical software that prevents mistakes in patient medication in hospitals. Although they have sold these systems to hospitals around the globe, making sales in Canada is next to impossible.
As for protecting ourselves from speed freak police, we are not as free as you folks in the West. Drivers in Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island are further preyed upon by being restricted from owning radar detectors.
quote:Originally posted by David B:
... As for protecting ourselves from speed freak police, we are not as free as you folks in the West. Drivers in Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island are further preyed upon by being restricted from owning radar detectors ...
David, radar detectors are legal in So Cal. And the steaks are on me dude.