George P, it is a "4 and a dot" motor.
That is the Q code engine. It is sometimes referred to as a Cobra Jet, a CJ, a GT, a 4V, or a 4 BBL carburetor version.
The proper parts can be sourced specifying a 1972 Torino or Mustang, equipped with a 351 4V engine (engine code Q) and C6 automatic transmission (transmission code U).
The "separator plate", the flex plate, the torque converter, and the starter are most likely all "specific" to this application.
The proper parts can be sourced specifying a 1972 Torino or Mustang, equipped with a 351 4V engine (engine code Q) and C6 automatic transmission (transmission code U).
The "separator plate", the flex plate, the torque converter, and the starter are most likely all "specific" to this application.
George P, sorry when I ask you what it means having a Q-code Cleveland. Is it a good motor, perhaps seldom and built into my Longchamp just in a special period or did Mr.De Tomaso buy some hundred of these motors in advance to build it in all of the later Longchamps too or are the later models equiped with other A/T Clevelands ? If so, flexplates and starters would not fit to later Longchamps even though they all had the C6 Automatic ??
De Tomaso had a "stock pile" of engines, but I have no idea how many. I don't think I would describe the quantity as "hundreds".
The Q code engine is the standard 351C with 4 barrel carburetor, for the 1972 through 1974 model years. Its a good engine, with two downsides (1) lowering of the compression ratio took some of the pep out of its performance, (2) the smog tuned carburetor also robbed the engine of performance.
Here's more information: 351C US Production History
When De Tomaso exhausted the supply of US manufactured engines, they began employing Australian made engines. I do not know what De Tomaso did at that point regarding the transmissions, what makes the most sense to me would have been for De Tomaso to use an automatic transmission sourced from Australia (along with the Australian starter, separator plate, flex plate and torque converter). Perhaps this is what motivated the introduction of the Longchamp GT with the 5 speed manual ZF transmission?
The Q code engine is the standard 351C with 4 barrel carburetor, for the 1972 through 1974 model years. Its a good engine, with two downsides (1) lowering of the compression ratio took some of the pep out of its performance, (2) the smog tuned carburetor also robbed the engine of performance.
Here's more information: 351C US Production History
When De Tomaso exhausted the supply of US manufactured engines, they began employing Australian made engines. I do not know what De Tomaso did at that point regarding the transmissions, what makes the most sense to me would have been for De Tomaso to use an automatic transmission sourced from Australia (along with the Australian starter, separator plate, flex plate and torque converter). Perhaps this is what motivated the introduction of the Longchamp GT with the 5 speed manual ZF transmission?
I as the question to my aunt at dinner last night. In 1971 the engines arrived when Ford wanted and there were more than bodies by 1974 they showed when Ford wanted and often there were completed bodies waiting.
Never hundreds more like 10s.
Never hundreds more like 10s.
George, since I have my Longchamp for 22 years I never thought about details under the hood. For me, I knew that there is a solid american motor that, if maintained once in a while (liquids etc.), stays your friend forever.
Now you made me curious about getting to know more about my dreamcar (since first time I saw it in an auto catalogue when I was 11 or so).
I know a lot about the design (T.Tjaarda) but details about the mechanics never really mattered to me...because it just worked. Even the european "so called" US-car specialists told me whenever I had a little issue here and there with mechanics "Oh, don`t get nervous, it`s a simple american 351 Cleveland, they all are the same". And they still have no idea about the many facets of american motors. It took me 3 months to assemble the right starter with the right flexplate (which was a flywheel when I started to look after it at US-car special stores and workshops in europe incl. Italy). Thanks to you, Mikael and Goodrock I finally found what I was looking for. As me together with my car are getting older we "both" want to know more about the history of the #2103. Is ProvaMo a good source for any informations about my car. It was, as I was told, originally sold to the US. Do I get informations like that at ProvaMo ? BTW, thanks a lot again for your support.
Now you made me curious about getting to know more about my dreamcar (since first time I saw it in an auto catalogue when I was 11 or so).
I know a lot about the design (T.Tjaarda) but details about the mechanics never really mattered to me...because it just worked. Even the european "so called" US-car specialists told me whenever I had a little issue here and there with mechanics "Oh, don`t get nervous, it`s a simple american 351 Cleveland, they all are the same". And they still have no idea about the many facets of american motors. It took me 3 months to assemble the right starter with the right flexplate (which was a flywheel when I started to look after it at US-car special stores and workshops in europe incl. Italy). Thanks to you, Mikael and Goodrock I finally found what I was looking for. As me together with my car are getting older we "both" want to know more about the history of the #2103. Is ProvaMo a good source for any informations about my car. It was, as I was told, originally sold to the US. Do I get informations like that at ProvaMo ? BTW, thanks a lot again for your support.
Chuck Melton, the proprietor of ProvaMo, is trying his best to amass full information about De Tomaso Automobiles. He has some information about Longchamps in general, but none regarding your specific car (I searched for your car using "XX2103".
I didn't expect ProvaMo to have information, considering you've owned the car for 22 years ... because ProvaMo has only been around less than 10 years. However ... I would like to encourage you to please contact Chuck and add your car to his registry. I am sure Chuck would welcome any information you wish to share with him about your car.
It only takes a spark to get a fire going.
I didn't expect ProvaMo to have information, considering you've owned the car for 22 years ... because ProvaMo has only been around less than 10 years. However ... I would like to encourage you to please contact Chuck and add your car to his registry. I am sure Chuck would welcome any information you wish to share with him about your car.
It only takes a spark to get a fire going.
Guys,
Ford didn't build different starters for different transmissions....OTHER than manual trans vs automagic....!!!! You're making this way more confusing than it really is!
On manual trans bellhousings, Ford put a casting wedge near where the nose of the starter went. If you tried to put an automagic starter in, it wouldn't fit.
DeTomaso bellhousings lack this feature.
Just from the pictures, it looks like the original starter was an automatic version (but I reserve the right to be wrong....) and perhaps there was damage on the ring gear prior....or perhaps the starter..... or perhaps the starter gear was for some odd reason not getting full engagement.....
Maybe someone put a manual trans starter in years ago....tore up the teeth....someone else comes along puts in the right starter....and it lasts until Walt tries to start his car one day.....with ugly happening.
You need to keep in mind that DeTomaso was a scrooge and the parts he used were picked for the cheapest price! If he ordered "automatic crate motors" that came with flywheels that were supposed to mate properly with the FORD transmissions that he bought......
It's not rocket science!
Fast forward to about 1983, then FOrd fired all the rocket scientists and made one starter and moved the ring gears around on the manual trans flywheels.....no more confusion!!!! One starter fits all!
I think new flywheel and new automatic bendix gear will work fine!
Ciao!
Steve
Ford didn't build different starters for different transmissions....OTHER than manual trans vs automagic....!!!! You're making this way more confusing than it really is!
On manual trans bellhousings, Ford put a casting wedge near where the nose of the starter went. If you tried to put an automagic starter in, it wouldn't fit.
DeTomaso bellhousings lack this feature.
Just from the pictures, it looks like the original starter was an automatic version (but I reserve the right to be wrong....) and perhaps there was damage on the ring gear prior....or perhaps the starter..... or perhaps the starter gear was for some odd reason not getting full engagement.....
Maybe someone put a manual trans starter in years ago....tore up the teeth....someone else comes along puts in the right starter....and it lasts until Walt tries to start his car one day.....with ugly happening.
You need to keep in mind that DeTomaso was a scrooge and the parts he used were picked for the cheapest price! If he ordered "automatic crate motors" that came with flywheels that were supposed to mate properly with the FORD transmissions that he bought......
It's not rocket science!
Fast forward to about 1983, then FOrd fired all the rocket scientists and made one starter and moved the ring gears around on the manual trans flywheels.....no more confusion!!!! One starter fits all!
I think new flywheel and new automatic bendix gear will work fine!
Ciao!
Steve
Twenty years ago when I put a McLeod mini-starter on the Pantera, it came with a 5/8" thick spacer plate. The instructions said 'std trans- use starter as is. Auto trans- use starter with adapter' and the spacer was needed to fit the std shift Pantera. One note- the thickness of the adapter plate between starter and block made the OEM starter mounting stud and bolt too short. I used two longer metric bolts to thread into the bellhousing; for the stud, I cut the head off one bolt and threaded it for a nut. With a stock Ford 'heavy-duty' starter, I had to loosen the right header to remove the 13-lb starter. For the 6-lb mini-starter, no such nonsense- it went in with plenty of clearance without moving the header.