Thanks for the details ...
One more thing Bill. DeTomaso being in Italy, there are THREE different factory wiring diagrams, and most have found that NONE are completely accurate to any known Pantera thanks to undocumented running changes in production. So buy the schematic that has a published date closest to your car's build date and be prepared to liberally annotate it to match your individual machine as you get further into the system. There are German, English and Italian electrical devices in there.... A good VOM and patience is your best friend.
I'll look for the correct publish date and try to be patient but after lusting for a Pantera for 44 years it's going to be tough to be patient with one sitting in my garage wanting to get out and run ...
Thanks for the tips
Bill
Thanks for the tips
Bill
BillT; Patience is virtue! I know how you feel about wanting to get out and show & go; however, the more you can accomplish in recognizing the wiring and the circuit's function, the less likely you'll find yourself in the the position I found myself in with all the limited space under the dash. Plus, there are some REALLY tight and sharp edges under there. HA,HA!
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...I got rid of The Fuse Block and ALL Fuses, Then Wired-In Circuit-Breakers. And Separated All 'Siamesed' Circuits. Never Again Find and Replace a Fuse.
Second, EVERY Circuit (Especially the IGNITION) is Ran Through a Relay with a Minimum, 30 AMP Contacts. LED's of Different Colors are Used to Verify Circuits are LIVE. Use 'Shrink Tubing' on ALL Terminals. Most Gauges are RED LED Digital, and are NOT ran through a Relay.
Last, adding a 200 AMP Cut-Off switch (near the Battery in Front Trunk) Will save finding a Drained Battery after Weeks of Non-Operation. Also, it's the Best 'Theft Deterrent' any amount of Money can Buy!
You have to Know Exactly what You are Doing!
Second, EVERY Circuit (Especially the IGNITION) is Ran Through a Relay with a Minimum, 30 AMP Contacts. LED's of Different Colors are Used to Verify Circuits are LIVE. Use 'Shrink Tubing' on ALL Terminals. Most Gauges are RED LED Digital, and are NOT ran through a Relay.
Last, adding a 200 AMP Cut-Off switch (near the Battery in Front Trunk) Will save finding a Drained Battery after Weeks of Non-Operation. Also, it's the Best 'Theft Deterrent' any amount of Money can Buy!
You have to Know Exactly what You are Doing!
Jag13cat, I'll probably be in that pic position for a while ...
Marlin, I got lost in all of the upgrades you did. Looks like I need a lesson or two
Thanks guys
Marlin, I got lost in all of the upgrades you did. Looks like I need a lesson or two
Thanks guys
I agree with Marlin one hundred percent on the battery cut off switch in the front trunk.
Super addition. I can work on all my electrics without having to worry about shorting anything out, and I can turn off my car with the flip (twist) of a switch.
In addition - I have actually seen a car that was having an electrical problems saved, by having the ability to disconnect the battery from the remainder of the wiring.
It's a very easy, and inexpensive modification.
Super addition. I can work on all my electrics without having to worry about shorting anything out, and I can turn off my car with the flip (twist) of a switch.
In addition - I have actually seen a car that was having an electrical problems saved, by having the ability to disconnect the battery from the remainder of the wiring.
It's a very easy, and inexpensive modification.
Rocky,
The battery cut-off switch is something I install on every classic car I buy.
Thanks for the suggestions ...
The battery cut-off switch is something I install on every classic car I buy.
Thanks for the suggestions ...
quote:Originally posted by BillT:
I recently purchased Dave Ferrot's #5972 project Pantera.
A prior owner to Dave completed paint/body work and part of the purchase price included a Ton of Pantera parts (take-offs and lots of new parts)so now it's time to reassemble.
Earlier I posted a message about needing a wiring harness but while going thru the parts I found the original harness.
Upon inspection the harness looks to be in good shape and I've read several posts indicating the stock harness is OK to use but should be improved for better functionality and reliability.
I plan to go thru the entire harness, clean connections, repair/replace worn/damaged items and upgrade components as needed.
Does someone have a list of the suggested harness improvements?
Some upgrades owners mentioned in previous posts:
$78 ignition bypass
$305 fuse box
$225 headlight motor controller
$260 radiator controller
$257 console switch controller
Changing wire gauge on a particular circuit to handle the load better
I'm concerned about the harness upgrade cost. One reason I wanted to go with the stock harness was to save money but some owners think it's less expensive overall to go with a new Painless harness.
My head is swimming and I'm getting dizzy thinking about 'what should I do' ...
Your comments/suggestions will allow me to create a harness refurbish/upgrade/install plan.
Thanks for your comments guys and it's Great to finally be a Pantera Owner and not just lurking on this Forum dreaming about 'what if'' …
Bill
All of the Pantera-Electronics items are great additions but the fact of the matter is that you do not need to do anything to the original car.
Changing to the P-E fuse panel is a convenience thing. It makes it easier to deal with blown fuses, original bullet fuses falling out and on the floor, and modernizing the type of fuses to use.
The same with all of Jon Haas's Pantera products.
There is one of them that I can think of though that anyone should really consider mandatory. That is the ignition switch controller. It takes the enormous electrical load off of the switch.
Your switch will last longer and it reduces the possibility of an electrical short.
I have all of the P-E "controllers" in the car and they really "fix" a lot of the issues.
As far as exactly what he means about "fixing mistakes" in the harness, I personally don't know. While the harness is out of the car, you might consider asking him about that?
That is the time to do any kind of a mistake correction to the harness. Working on it in the car to me would not be the desired course of action.
Another item that I would predict a very high percentage of owners would agree with is put a solid state distributor in the car. One that has proven to be VERY reliable is the Ford Motorcraft unit.
A ticking time bomb in the car is the ORIGINAL ammeter gauge because of the way it is wired into the car.
Just about everything else is a matter of taste.
The original car is not a disaster area as some, including journalists would suggest. Many have driven these cars with original equipment quite a few happy miles with really "normal" production car failure rates on components.
I think that some components have actually done BETTER then Ford itself thought it would do. I'm thinking of the ZF itself.
Ford apparently was convinced something like 1 in 3 would need to be replaced for one reason or another under warranty and stocked replacement units to be prepared.
They re-engineered the gear ratios from the -1 to reduce torque loading, i.e., first gear "burn-outs" by reducing the first gear ratio from 2.41 to 2.20 in the -2.
To my knowledge, the ZF's never failed as expected.
In fact the ZF's have proven strong enough to hold much larger displacement engines without failure. Those engines are making significantly more torque then the often quoted 550 ft-lbs limit.
A good size acorn maybe could crack the windshield if it catches it right, but for sure it doesn't mean the sky is falling at all.
Great comments Doug,
I'm trying to not get caught up in all of the upgrades/improvements you could possibly do as you reassemble the car but instead, capture these in a long list, prioritize the list and only do the minimal/important upgrades so you can get the car assembled quicker and use the vehicle while you decide on which upgrade is next.
If you were in my shoes and, given the guideline above, what would your short list look like?
Again, Thanks for your assistance
I'm trying to not get caught up in all of the upgrades/improvements you could possibly do as you reassemble the car but instead, capture these in a long list, prioritize the list and only do the minimal/important upgrades so you can get the car assembled quicker and use the vehicle while you decide on which upgrade is next.
If you were in my shoes and, given the guideline above, what would your short list look like?
Again, Thanks for your assistance
quote:Originally posted by BillT:
Great comments Doug,
I'm trying to not get caught up in all of the upgrades/improvements you could possibly do as you reassemble the car but instead, capture these in a long list, prioritize the list and only do the minimal/important upgrades so you can get the car assembled quicker and use the vehicle while you decide on which upgrade is next.
If you were in my shoes and, given the guideline above, what would your short list look like?
Again, Thanks for your assistance
My list is really limited by the budget. I have my car since 1985. The only thing that I am sorry for is 1) cutting the front hood to put the "Hitbachi grills" in and cutting the rear deck for the Webers.
Neither was necessary. I kept the cut outs but only the rear could be put back in.
EVERYTHING else has been worthwhile.
I would add, stay away from the MSD ignition. You will be sorry for that if you do it.
The P-E ignition so far as I know is the ONLY ignition that will actually fire a fouled plug and CLEAN it up.
I suppose the old "racer's adage" of how fast you want to go is only limited by how much money you have to spend or maybe, how high is up are applicable in this instance?
You can run the risk of just living to work on the car and never get to drive it too?
I would get the Infinitybox wiring system since the car is basically gutted. Throw away the dated fuse panel and go completely digital more reliable and certainly will bring your pantera up to modern standards and beyond.
The complete system is about $1500.00, check out their website
My .02
The complete system is about $1500.00, check out their website
My .02
Thanks for the comments WPL.
I'll check out the Infinitybox system.
I'll check out the Infinitybox system.
Not exactly a wiring mod, but I would spend some time in calibrating the console gauges. As you get to driving your machine, you will probably find that -A- the water temp gauge lies, and -B- the oil pressure gauge lies. Both reduce your potential enjoyment of the car by making you worry. But if the gauges are calibrated, you'll KNOW they are lying. In the water temp gauge feed line, Ford engineering added one of three different resistors to bring the gauge temp down for 'owner peace of mind'. If it's there, it will simply be twisted into the single wire near the sender, then covered with electrical tape.
Bosswrench,
Is it only the water and oil gauges that need calibrating? and do you know of a post that discusses the steps to calibrate these gauges?
Sorry for all the questions
Is it only the water and oil gauges that need calibrating? and do you know of a post that discusses the steps to calibrate these gauges?
Sorry for all the questions
as for "calibrating" the gauges, you really need to be vary familar with Kirchoff!
http://www.panteraplace.com/page205.htm
http://www.panteraplace.com/page205.htm
Thanks JFB,
That takes me back to electronics classes I had many moons ago ...
That takes me back to electronics classes I had many moons ago ...
Bill, the oil pressure gauge was Italian made (Veglia) while the sender was a Mustang part made in the U.S, so its no wonder there was a mismatch affecting accuracy. The simplest 'fix' for this one is to install a Tee fitting in the rear of the block where the electric gauge sender is. Add a cheap mechanical oil pressure gauge in one leg of the tee and the electric sender in the other. Start your engine and note the difference in readings: it will be from 10-30 psi. In a few minutes of running, you can 'calibrate' the gauge yourself. It's safe to leave the mechanical gauge in place indefinitely- mine has been there for over 20 years. I use 'real' readings while tuning.
The water temp had either a 0-220F (1971-1973) or a 0-260F (1973-up) face with two quite different mechanisms inside. I changed gauges and found that the 0-260 gauge read quite close to true, once the 'factory' resistor was removed. Substituting a small value variable resistor allows one to easily 'calibrate' either gauge. Note that with the earlier 0-220 gauge, the normal operating temp of a totally stock Pantera will be 190-210 so this gauge is less valuable- it will run 'pegged' a lot of the time. And of course if the engine or cooling system has been modified, it could read almost anything.
The fuel gauge reads correctly. The ammeter may or may not, depending.... as mentioned, there are English Lucas, Italian Fiamm and German Bosch components in the wiring and most Panteras have been modified here. But the ammeter is arguably the least important- all you really want to know is whether the alternator is charging or not; the exact value is not very important. Finally, the Pantera is VERY sensitive to good grounds of all its electrical components. If something doesn't work or works funky, first, check the ground. This practice will save you much time & money.
The water temp had either a 0-220F (1971-1973) or a 0-260F (1973-up) face with two quite different mechanisms inside. I changed gauges and found that the 0-260 gauge read quite close to true, once the 'factory' resistor was removed. Substituting a small value variable resistor allows one to easily 'calibrate' either gauge. Note that with the earlier 0-220 gauge, the normal operating temp of a totally stock Pantera will be 190-210 so this gauge is less valuable- it will run 'pegged' a lot of the time. And of course if the engine or cooling system has been modified, it could read almost anything.
The fuel gauge reads correctly. The ammeter may or may not, depending.... as mentioned, there are English Lucas, Italian Fiamm and German Bosch components in the wiring and most Panteras have been modified here. But the ammeter is arguably the least important- all you really want to know is whether the alternator is charging or not; the exact value is not very important. Finally, the Pantera is VERY sensitive to good grounds of all its electrical components. If something doesn't work or works funky, first, check the ground. This practice will save you much time & money.
Great tips guys...