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Peter, get the Avons from MOR in Munich. They are VR rated and can handle the power. Anything less and you may end up racing down the autobahn on your bare rims.

Those Avon tires are not VR rated, just V rated, witch is a main difference. Old VR rated tires  had an unlimited speed limit.  The manufacturer just claimed 240 Kilometers per our under full weight load of the tire. Under less load the top speed could be higher rated by the manufacturer. That is why for excample in Germany the tire brand was written to the papers on cars faster than 240.

V-rated tires have a speed limit of 240 Kilometers per hour without exceptions. Faster driven Avons can be a death trap.

@davidnunn posted:

... but don’t they have the highest speed rating of any tire, of an appropriate size, that’s currently available for 10” Campi’s ? I can’t imagine them being more of a “death trap” than 20 year old P7’s/BFG’s or the HR rated  Toyo truck/SUV all season radials many Pantera owners seem to use. 

Other then Bragging rights how many of US drive 130 MPH? 15 inch tires are hard to come by and if You do find them they are a arm and leg $$$! Before I switched to 17"/18", I had 15 " BFG's and never had a Problem. Just my 2 cents.

They do, but in Europe near to Germany with roads w/o a speed limit in a proper Pantera, you should know, that it is a difference between V-rated and VR rated tires. I’m sure that GT4 Peter is aware of that, as he says he is a worker for the Scuderia, a specialist on engines and gearboxes and almost works on cars, that no others can do... so i just wondered about his beginner questions..

Yes - you are right with the difference of V and VR.

I picked the speed rating from our automobile club:

Speed RatingMaximum Speed km/hMaximum Speed miles/hRemarks
P15093 
Q16099 
R170106 
S180112 
T190118 
H210131 
V240149 
VRover 210over 131Old index, often not sold anymore
W270168 
Y300186 
ZRover 240over 149Old index, often not sold anymore
Last edited by Hugo
@mwelter posted:

They do, but in Europe near to Germany with roads w/o a speed limit in a proper Pantera, you should know, that it is a difference between V-rated and VR rated tires. I’m sure that GT4 Peter is aware of that, as he says he is a worker for the Scuderia, a specialist on engines and gearboxes and almost works on cars, that no others can do... so i just wondered about his beginner questions..

So you small brained Jäckel followers.  I have enough. If somebody want to tell me something, say it to my face and take 5 or 6 from your buddies with you.

Last time Olvier , right now you . Its enough. I have screeshots of all your nice words , also fom the Jäckel from Facebook last time.

If someone think, I ruin his bussines and he need to speak silly about my person to feel better - its ok for me . But : Nobody from us can make the Factory alive !

Nobody can bring DeTomaso back from heaven. He is dead , the factory is dead - so no new cars - no big business ! This is not my foult.

 Yes I am a car mechanic , since 1997 , yes I work for Ferrari , yes I do engines and gearboxes since this time.  Everybody can do this , youst learn learn and do it.

Envy is displaced here.

I am happy to own a Pantera and I am happy when I am able to help some others with panteras.  This is not my main bussines . Its my hobby and I am happy that there are so many friedly pantera drivers arround the world.

 

Only a few people, who called themselfs " specialists " in Germany.

They are verry bad for the detomaso brand in my oppinion.

Asking something means to learn something. 

When I ask about tires, a comment like from mwelter is absolute nothing.

In Europe the tires are not aviable with the correct speed index so we need a solution and not bad speach.

 

Thanks

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes! You guys are right about the speed rating. I learned something new and useful again. However I‘m still of the opinion the Avons are tires that offer the best combination of looks and performance. I‘ve done extensive research and haven‘t been able to find anything better. The Pirellis may have the rating but are too small in diameter for the wheel wells. George’s chart is very useful in this regard. The BFs may have the right size but haven’t got the rating which is important in Germany for legal purposes but also for practical purposes as we have stretches of the autobahn w/o a speed limit. I‘m a purist so I’m sticking to stock rims. Even the stock XWXs are technically no longer legal as Michelin has changed their max. and min. rim size recommendations recently. Mixing different manufacturers front and back is from an esthetic point of view a definite no-no. I honestly hope some one can contradict me...

Yes! You guys are right about the speed rating. I learned something new and useful again. However I‘m still of the opinion the Avons are tires that offer the best combination of looks and performance. I‘ve done extensive research and haven‘t been able to find anything better. The Pirellis may have the rating but are too small in diameter for the wheel wells. George’s chart is very useful in this regard. The BFs may have the right size but haven’t got the rating which is important in Germany for legal purposes but also for practical purposes as we have stretches of the autobahn w/o a speed limit. I‘m a purist so I’m sticking to stock rims. Even the stock XWXs are technically no longer legal as Michelin has changed their max. and min. rim size recommendations recently. Mixing different manufacturers front and back is from an esthetic point of view a definite no-no. I honestly hope some one can contradict me...

Eugine, you are right ! The good point is, that Pirelli already came up with new tires for the GT4 and GT5 cars and hopefully they will do also on the 285/50-15 soon. I think Longstone tires in the UK is in direct contact with Pirelli and will inform us, as soon something new will come up.

I live in the US and find these discussions of tire ratings largely esoteric.

No one is going 200mph here on public roads. On the track, you use racing tires.

As a product of the '60s "with all the rights and privileges" I know that racing tires had no speed ratings on them.

I also remember in the '70s BFG's being used as racing rain tires.

The current tires are "rated" for certain speeds, not guaranteed for those speeds.

Listening to these debates I get the impression that tire ratings is more of a status symbol then anything else and just a way to charge you more for the same tire.

I lived for 10 years near the border with Germany. I had a Porsche 996 turbo and an Audi RS4 and I often drove above 250 km / h (160 MPH) during the day for several kilometers and made speed spikes at 300 km / h (200 MPH), the Motorways are not always congested and the Germans are used to being overtaken by cars that run very very fast.

Even in France, at night when there are few police officers I often drive for a long time well above 200 km / h (120 MPH).

Maybe you don't do it in the USA, but the USA are not the world.

Last edited by rene4406

As demonstrated by Hugo's post the 'old' style ratings are rarely used now so you likely won't find a VR tire, but a V rated modern (up to 240 km/h) tire is really equivalent to the old VR rating up to 240 km/h (as over that it would have previously been given a ZR rating). 

I would not expect Pirelli to give a classic low volume tire a higher rating than it had originally, nor go to the expense of testing to prove it capable of higher speeds. 

@mwelter posted:

The new Pirelli 345-35 15 and 285-40 15 are VR rated tires with an Y behind the load index. That means 300 Km per hour. You see, they do make it on small batches.

 

Those tires were ZR rated anyway, I'm saying they likely wouldn't invest all the testing to upgrade the rating for classic tires.

I understand why some of our American friends are turning up their eyes and thinking why are these silly Europeans so interested in a couple of letters next to the tire size. Well, to us it is very important. Driving a car without the proper speed rating is illegal. You can get a fine and have your car impounded. The insurance company can deny any claims. You won‘t get through your vehicle safety inspection either. Believe me, we are not discussing this for fun. Please enjoy your privileges and freedom and hope you don‘t get constraints like we have here in Europe. I‘m restoring two Panteras. Wheels and tires have taken up more time than any other major component. Let’s keep an open and tolerant attitude in our exchanges. Let’s enjoy our great cars. Stay safe.

I understand why some of our American friends are turning up their eyes and thinking why are these silly Europeans so interested in a couple of letters next to the tire size. Well, to us it is very important. Driving a car without the proper speed rating is illegal. You can get a fine and have your car impounded. The insurance company can deny any claims. You won‘t get through your vehicle safety inspection either. Believe me, we are not discussing this for fun. Please enjoy your privileges and freedom and hope you don‘t get constraints like we have here in Europe. I‘m restoring two Panteras. Wheels and tires have taken up more time than any other major component. Let’s keep an open and tolerant attitude in our exchanges. Let’s enjoy our great cars. Stay safe.

How is the tire rating determined for the car? Is there a government list specifying the required rating? Do police pull you over to check your tires?

There are portions of Nevada and Ohio where there is no day time speed limit. Rt 80 in Ohio was/is one. No one checks your tires.

Probably around 100mph is about all you can expect to do safely do to road design and traffic conditions. At higher speeds you just can't look far enough down the road to go faster safely.

I can just envision Giorgio in his Fiat Punta pulling out in front of you? I'm sure he'd have his driving gloves and shoes on though?

@panteradoug posted:

How is the tire rating determined for the car? Is there a government list specifying the required rating? Do police pull you over to check your tires?

There are portions of Nevada and Ohio where there is no day time speed limit. Rt 80 in Ohio was/is one. No one checks your tires.

Probably around 100mph is about all you can expect to do safely do to road design and traffic conditions. At higher speeds you just can't look far enough down the road to go faster safely.

I can just envision Giorgio in his Fiat Punta pulling out in front of you? I'm sure he'd have his driving gloves and shoes on though?

I do not agree, speed is a matter of habit, when I drove a lot I was very relaxed up to more than 250 km / h because I often drove at this speed, at night on highways in perfect condition and with little traffic. Now that I drive a lot less, and that I'm old , I find that 200 km/h is already very fast.

Last edited by rene4406
@panteradoug posted:

How is the tire rating determined for the car? Is there a government list specifying the required rating? Do police pull you over to check your tires?

There are portions of Nevada and Ohio where there is no day time speed limit. Rt 80 in Ohio was/is one. No one checks your tires.

Probably around 100mph is about all you can expect to do safely do to road design and traffic conditions. At higher speeds you just can't look far enough down the road to go faster safely.

I can just envision Giorgio in his Fiat Punta pulling out in front of you? I'm sure he'd have his driving gloves and shoes on though?

There is a gouverment list specifying the speed rate of tires and yes the police can pull you over and control the tires and if it comes worse, they can take your car away for an official inspection. Also Panteras have an official homologation paper given by the italien gouverment. In that paper are all dimensions written down, also the tire sizes, speed rates, pollution and noise level. That is a matter of road safety in Europe.

Giorgio in his Panda will look into his rear mirror before he pulls out, because he had to take intesive driving lessons in theorie and praxis before driving a car. Also a matter of road safety.

Again, this was all asked in the european regional Forum and has nothing to do with laws and views of US driven cars.

The US Pantera was sold up to the '74 model year with non-rated tires.

Even if sold new in Europe, I know of no tires with ratings on them at the time.

 

Are you saying that ALL Panteras now in Europe are pre-determined to have a specific speed capability and as such are REQUIRED by the State to have tires rated to that capability?

 

As far as "Giorgio" getting out of your way, color me skeptical on that based upon how I have seen drivers in Rome. That's every "man" for himself? Seems more like a demolition derby to me? 

 

I do not know the date of appearance of the speed indices in Europe but I remember that they already existed when I spent my driving skills in 1970.
As for states, each European country has its own rules which may not be strictly identical depending on the country, but the principles are the same and, YES, each type of car has a specified speed index.

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