transmission bronze oil lite pilot bushing

I think Mark sums it up pretty good...

quote:

$8 or $85 for a pilot bushing depending on your level of risk management

I appreciate the vendors making parts for us, but I feel this thread (heated exchanges notwithstanding) provided a lot of value in discussing alternatives.

I used a Timken Needle Bearing - based on expert advice and the fact that these bearings have run in millions of cars for many years.

Here's a list of what I think works (YMMV) - I got one of these...

Pilot Bearing:

Summit: Ford D8TZ-7600-A
NAPA: FC-65662

Pilot Bushing:

RAM BU50J - Bronze, Non-Magnetic ($12 at Summit)
McLeod PN 8-1380-2
Pioneer PB-50J
Dorman 14656

Kevlar Pilot Bushing:

Southbend Clutch 50MHDK


Rocky

quote:

Isn't this thread also a little bit about supporting and promoting those here who have gone out of their way to source, engineer, create and supply the best they can for the hobby? Like Marlin and Scott?

I wonder what Dorman would charge to tool up and supply the real bronze SAE oilite machined pilot bushing in the quantities we consume?

I couldn't agree more Larry. I think getting the part from Marlin is a great idea because he supports the hobby and does GREAT work.

My only issue is the scare tactic that some people use. Some folks are always doom and gloom on some subjects without any backup of what they claim to be a huge issue.

I say buy from Marlin because he supports us and make a great product, not because the less expensive parts are going to cause thousands of dollars of damage to our input shafts because that, in my opinion, is hogwash. Now this is the point where someone is going to say they saw it way back when... I get it, maybe someone experienced some issue with a non pure bearing but I still don't think there is much risk. Just my opinion...

But again, buy it from Marlin because he is a great guy supplying great parts. That alone is worth the extra money his part may cost.

Scott

quote:

Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:

quote:

Isn't this thread also a little bit about supporting and promoting those here who have gone out of their way to source, engineer, create and supply the best they can for the hobby? Like Marlin and Scott?

I wonder what Dorman would charge to tool up and supply the real bronze SAE oilite machined pilot bushing in the quantities we consume?

I couldn't agree more Larry. I think getting the part from Marlin is a great idea because he supports the hobby and does GREAT work.

My only issue is the scare tactic that some people use. Some folks are always doom and gloom on some subjects without any backup of what they claim to be a huge issue.

I say buy from Marlin because he supports us and make a great product, not because the less expensive parts are going to cause thousands of dollars of damage to our input shafts because that, in my opinion, is hogwash. Now this is the point where someone is going to say they saw it way back when... I get it, maybe someone experienced some issue with a non pure bearing but I still don't think there is much risk. Just my opinion...

But again, buy it from Marlin because he is a great guy supplying great parts. That alone is worth the extra money his part may cost.

Scott

Hello Scott; I agree Wholeheartedly in regards to supporting those that use their collective skills & knowledge to machine/manufacturer/produce well designed parts & upgrades for our cars.
But there will ALWAYS be those that are "A penny wise, a pound foolish", I now have to go study how to properly read a micrometer. ( insert smiley face)...Mark

Well, alot of good info came from this,soon as I pull my trans axle and verify sizes I'll see what Marlin can do for me.

No one else is using a shielded ball bearing?

hmmmm . . . .

Has anyone run a Kevlar Bushing?

It's an interesting concept - I'd be interested in how it works in practice.

Southbend Clutch P/N 50MHDK

Thanks -

Rocky

I have been searching for some info on the "kevlar bushing" but not sure what materail I am finding.
just my cursurary opinon from what i noticed is that a lot of the composite bushing materails do have a higher loading factor, BUT have limited to surface speeds. I am wondering if they might be OK in desiels (lower rpms), but not for the 20 feet per second when hitting 7000 rpms

BTW, how much of the input shaft is in the bushing?

For those using oilite, what clearance are you using? would it be ~0.001" or nearer to ~0.003"?

I run and have run the McLeod roller, 5 years and no problems.
Just to clarify,their is or shouldn't be ANY movement between the input shaft and the pilot bearing after the transmission is installed.

Actually, after looking at forum posts from some LS1 guys, a diesel forum and a corvette forum, I felt the performance of the Kevlar bushing was a little concerning....

Didn't sound like a number of the users were happy with them.

Rocky

FWIW- Talked recently to two different semi-pro ZF overhaul people- one was Les Gray in Phoenix. The other was in a local shop that converts 5DS-25/2 ZFs for use upside-down in GT-40s & kits. Both said 'Do NOT use a roller or ball pilot bearing on a ZF. ZF input shaft noses are NOT hardened, so if the ungreasable bearing begins to slip/seize on the shaft nose, scoring is inevitable'. Ford top-loader trannys ARE hardened, as are T-10s (I don't have a Muncie around right now to check) so Mustang pilot-bearing use is not the same as on a Pantera/Mangusta. Les mentioned that a replacement shaft is now around $1200. Teardown/reassembly labor is nearly the same.

More info: A scored ZF input shaft is not necessarily junk. Being unhardened, they CAN be brazed or TIG welded with SS, then turned back down to salvage the part. Several owners have reportedly had this successfully done. It's then fine for a street car but no longer suitable for high-horsepower racing.

The ZF nose dia is the same or very close to a 327/350 Chevy trans input shaft nose. So I use a Chevy bronze (not oilite) bushing by Lakewood (Summit), with an aluminum adapter ring to fit the giant Ford crankshaft recess. I grease the bushing and use a felt ring like Mangusta did to keep lube in place. Or you can bore a worn-out Ford bushing to press-fit the Lakewood bushing in, and thus make your own adapter ring.

I don't use oilite due to its low impact strength but if you decide to use it, the alloy you need for this application is SAE-841 bronze. It comes soaked in light oil; I suggest soaking it overnight in 80W90 diff/steering lube. The two other 'super-oilite' & 'super-oilite 16' have enough iron in them to be magnetic, which then behave like a hard bearing as far as unhardened trans nose wear.
Note also- I don't sell either type or the adapters, so whether you use a bushing or a bearing means nothing to me. Merry Christmas & stay lucky- J DeRyke

Just a point on George's post on page one: My car is #2548, and placard stamped Jan.'72 build date. It has a -2 ZF, so the change over must have been somewhat earlier than he indicated.
Rodney

...Hardened ZF Input Shafts ARE Absolutely Repairable!!!
You First have them 'Hard Chrome' (Plated) and then they are Ground to size, between centers on a Cylindrical Grinder! Concentricity Accurate to 'Zero Error'. We do 'It' all the time at the LFW Shop. When ever a Shaft might be cut .001"-.003", or More, Undersize, in error. Chroming Saves an Expensive piece of Steel, with MANY man/hours of Machining on it, from being Scrapped. There is NO reason why a Shaft that might be 'All Galled-Up' could Not Have the Snout completely Chromed and Ground, the Very Best way to do it. Brazing and Welding is a Complete NO-NO!! Because it changes the Metallurgy of the Steel and Weakens it, at the very least!
Think of all the Worn-Out ZF shafts that CAN be Rejuvenated! YES! And the Surface in Hard Chrome would be BETTER than NEW!! Save a LOT of Money!
Call LFW Machine in Stockton, California for a Quote. Leo is a Master Machinist! No one is More Experienced on the Cyl. Grinder.

They Chrome Crankshafts! They also weld on Crankshafts. I Recommend Chroming.

I am Now retired and No longer work there.
Good-Luck

quote:

Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
...Hardened ZF Input Shafts ARE Absolutely Repairable!!! You First have them 'Hard Chrome' (Plated) and then they are Ground to size, between centers on a Cylindrical Grinder! Concentricity Accurate to 'Zero Error'. We do 'It' all the time at the LFW Shop. When ever a Shaft might be cut .001"-.003", or More, Undersize, in error. Chroming Saves an Expensive piece of Steel, with MANY man/hours of Machining on it, from being Scrapped. There is NO reason why a Shaft that might be 'All Galled-Up' could Not Have the Snout completely Chromed and Ground, the Very Best way to do it. Brazing and Welding is a Complete NO-NO!! Because it changes the Metallurgy of the Steel and Weakens it, at the very least!
Think of all the Worn-Out ZF shafts that CAN be Rejuvenated! YES! And the Surface in Hard Chrome would be BETTER than NEW!! Save a LOT of Money!
Call LFW Machine in Stockton, California for a Quote. Leo is a Master Machinist! No one is More Experienced on the Cyl. Grinder.

They Chrome Crankshafts! They also weld on Crankshafts. I Recommend Chroming.

I am Now retired and No longer work there.
Good-Luck

This is Excellent advice/recommendation!...Thanks, Marlin Jack!

...Hardened ZF Input Shafts ARE Absolutely Repairable!!! You First have them 'Hard Chrome' (Plated) Built-Up to Oversized, and then they are Ground to size, between centers on a Cylindrical Grinder! Concentricity Accurate to 'Zero Error'. We do 'It' all the time at the LFW Shop. When ever a Shaft might be cut .001"-.003", or More, Undersize, in error. Chroming Saves an Expensive piece of Steel, with MANY man/hours of Machining on it, from being Scrapped. There is NO reason why a Shaft that might be 'All Galled-Up' could Not Have the Snout completely Chromed and Ground, the Very Best way to do it. Brazing and Welding is a Complete NO-NO!! Because it changes the Metallurgy of the Steel and Weakens it, at the very least!
Think of all the Worn-Out ZF shafts that CAN be Rejuvenated! YES! And the Surface in Hard Chrome would be BETTER than NEW!! Save a LOT of Money!
Call LFW Machine in Stockton, California for a Quote. Leo is a Master Machinist! No one is More Experienced on the Cylindrical Grinder.

TO BE MORE CLEAR:...In The Industry, Crankshafts are Welded, Ground, and Chromed! I Recommend Chroming and Grinding. The LFW Shop would Send the ZF Shaft Out to a 'Chroming Shop', when it returns, Leo would Grind the 'Snout' in the Cylindrical Grinder, 0.6695"-0.6700". Talk to Leo. (209)435-0444 Ben will answer the Phone, they'll Treat You Right! Tell Them Marlin sent You!

LFW has Specialized in Hardened Gears and Shafts, in Gearboxes, for Over 50 Years.
Over the Years, We have Built and/or Repaired, Dozens, Perhaps 100'S of Custom Designed (by Leo), 'Power Transmission' Gearboxes from scratch, from the ground up.
Leo Taught himself Gear Milling/Hobbing, and Started his Business when he was all of 18 years old. VERY Complicated Mathematics! 'Gears' are a Whole Different 'Fraternity', Separate onto Itself.

Yes, He could even do 'Never Before Seen' Gears for the ZF, but they would be Very Expensive. Perhaps L. Butfoy and Others could use his services.

Last, In My Experience, the ZF Input Shafts ARE Hardened! Take a File and try to Scratch the Tip of the Snout. The file will Glance off with-out a Scratch, as if like a Diamond. The Shaft is 'Gear Hardened'!

I am Now retired and No longer work at the LFW Shops.

Good-Luck with it.
Happy New Year! Cheers!!