Just found the answer on the web. Looks like about a 125lb difference. Both engines with aluminum heads.
Sounds like quite a bit of a difference going 302 versus 351. Does this sound right?
Josh
Geaorge,
Work?? I thought you said you were retired?? I I had known you were still working I woulda never given you an assignment. I am always putting my foot in my mouth it seems.
Work?? I thought you said you were retired?? I I had known you were still working I woulda never given you an assignment. I am always putting my foot in my mouth it seems.
Josh,
the common weight quoted for a 351C is 550 pounds, but it is closer to 610 fully dressed out. The common weight quoted for a 302 is 460 pounds, the fuel injected 5.0 version is about 450, i.e. 100 pounds less than the "C". So fully dressed I would guess it will be close to 500 pounds. A Kenn Bell blower will add weight, alloy heads will subtract weight, an aftermarket block will also add weight, unless you go alloy with the block, which doubles the price of the block (and halves the weight!)
The blown 5.0 will be extremely more expensive to build than a 383C that I suggested previously. Especially if you build it around support of 18 pounds of boost. Back off on the boost, shoot for 500 or less bhp, and you can run the oem 5.0 block & back off on the budget too.
I went to the FRPP web site quickly and checked crate motor pricing, and to my surprise, the price of mod motors has come drastically down, so the mod motor conversion "should" be less expensive than I had previously quoted you, you might want to check that out. A 460 bhp naturally aspirated 4 cam mod motor would be a very nice addition to any Pantera, or maybe a 4 cammer with a Kenne Bell blower! It sits a bit higher than the 5.0, the blower would probably be visible above the engine screen, so that's your call if thats acceptable or not. The cammer is also about 25 pounds heavier than a "C".
Build the Cleveland already in your car, drop in a 7 liter Windsor crate engine, build & install a blown & fuel injected 5.0, or squeeze in a 4 cam mod motor crate engine. Nice choices, let me reassure you, among these 4 choices you really can't go wrong.
DeTom, I no longer work on other peoples cars & motorcycles in my spare time (evenings & weekends) as I did when I was younger (up to 1988), thats what I meant by writing I was retired from working on cars. By day I am still a mild mannered supervisor for the nations largest municipally owned utility, been doing that for 29 years.
I sit at my desk with the PIBB on the computer during the day, answer posts when I have the time, but it pushes back my going home time if I spend too much time on the PIBB. A convenient aspect of being single, it doesn't matter when I go home.
I'm off to visit Doug & help him with his cantankerous cat.
Your friend on the PIBB, George
the common weight quoted for a 351C is 550 pounds, but it is closer to 610 fully dressed out. The common weight quoted for a 302 is 460 pounds, the fuel injected 5.0 version is about 450, i.e. 100 pounds less than the "C". So fully dressed I would guess it will be close to 500 pounds. A Kenn Bell blower will add weight, alloy heads will subtract weight, an aftermarket block will also add weight, unless you go alloy with the block, which doubles the price of the block (and halves the weight!)
The blown 5.0 will be extremely more expensive to build than a 383C that I suggested previously. Especially if you build it around support of 18 pounds of boost. Back off on the boost, shoot for 500 or less bhp, and you can run the oem 5.0 block & back off on the budget too.
I went to the FRPP web site quickly and checked crate motor pricing, and to my surprise, the price of mod motors has come drastically down, so the mod motor conversion "should" be less expensive than I had previously quoted you, you might want to check that out. A 460 bhp naturally aspirated 4 cam mod motor would be a very nice addition to any Pantera, or maybe a 4 cammer with a Kenne Bell blower! It sits a bit higher than the 5.0, the blower would probably be visible above the engine screen, so that's your call if thats acceptable or not. The cammer is also about 25 pounds heavier than a "C".
Build the Cleveland already in your car, drop in a 7 liter Windsor crate engine, build & install a blown & fuel injected 5.0, or squeeze in a 4 cam mod motor crate engine. Nice choices, let me reassure you, among these 4 choices you really can't go wrong.
DeTom, I no longer work on other peoples cars & motorcycles in my spare time (evenings & weekends) as I did when I was younger (up to 1988), thats what I meant by writing I was retired from working on cars. By day I am still a mild mannered supervisor for the nations largest municipally owned utility, been doing that for 29 years.
I sit at my desk with the PIBB on the computer during the day, answer posts when I have the time, but it pushes back my going home time if I spend too much time on the PIBB. A convenient aspect of being single, it doesn't matter when I go home.
I'm off to visit Doug & help him with his cantankerous cat.
Your friend on the PIBB, George
Thanks George. I usually hit the board several times a day too just to see what is going on. I am a poor and humble engineer, just eaking out a living and getting by.
George,
My "cantankerous cat" is now very happy. Julie & I took off up 101 to Emma Wood last night and then came back home, Charlie and Alex needed rides of course, car ran great! Since I've met you my car is getting better and better. I can actually drive it now and feel good. Many, many thanks!!!!
My "cantankerous cat" is now very happy. Julie & I took off up 101 to Emma Wood last night and then came back home, Charlie and Alex needed rides of course, car ran great! Since I've met you my car is getting better and better. I can actually drive it now and feel good. Many, many thanks!!!!
you are welcome my friend, thank you for the hospitality you and Julie have shown me.
So, have I made you a convert to the virtues of the buttery nipple?
your friend on & off the PIBB, George
So, have I made you a convert to the virtues of the buttery nipple?
your friend on & off the PIBB, George
No thank you!
I have not completely switched over, I love my margaritas. I look at it this way, the buttery nipple has been added to the list of my favorites.
Can't wait to try it warmed up.
I have not completely switched over, I love my margaritas. I look at it this way, the buttery nipple has been added to the list of my favorites.
Can't wait to try it warmed up.
My goodness. What an interesting topic and what a pleasure to read the various inputs on so many areas of this discussion. George particularly. What a font of wisdom & much knowledge. Thank you very much for sharing all that with us. The bit on the early NASCAR days, Ford agin chevy was a treat. One mostly hears just Chevy talk out here in the colonies and iam always 'fighting' with my mates who all mostly run chevies. ( In our small Pantera club here in Johannesburg we have one member with 4x Pantera's ALL running chevy motors in various forms and one new menber who is fitting a very liteweight quad-cam Lexus 4.2 V8 with local ECU setup, throtle bodies etc. - these motors come from Japan where they are 'retiring' cars after two years, so one can buy a Nissan or Lexus V8 with very little mileage, 2x years worth, for a bit more than $1000. A 2xyr old turbo, intercooled Mazda rotary with box cost a lot less. The kids here run these rotaries in all sorts of cars, drag race them on the weekends , turn up the boost, mayby win some money, blow the motor and buy a another one for the next drag meeting...wish it were like that when i was a kid..)
One point missed tho during all the postings that I would like to mention is: The "Power Only On Demand" theory. And this is where my bet would be on turbo'ng over supercharging. Sure turbo's run hot etc., but there is one area where it excells over everything else, along with the old N.O.S. bottle number,- is that your motor, whatever it is will only come under mechanical stress when its ON boost or ON the bottle.- Only those few seconds, minutes (how often does one nail it hard, 20% or 35% of the time???) With Supercharging or normally aspiration with high compression etc. your motor is just that exactely, :- under boost from the supercharger all the time....the turbo or nitros oxide exerts strain/stress on the motor 'on demand' only. Allowing the motor to operate in low boost, low compression mode for a LOT of the time u are driving. This is one of the reasons one can find 30 plus year old Porsche Turbo's that still run strong with a 250.000 mile, un-opened motor.- Its been unstressed most of it driving life. NOS has been around since forever....only making power when needed.....and as one of u said : 450bhp plus a soft hit of 150 from a NOS bottle will give u plenty, reliable poke.
Regards to all, tai.
One point missed tho during all the postings that I would like to mention is: The "Power Only On Demand" theory. And this is where my bet would be on turbo'ng over supercharging. Sure turbo's run hot etc., but there is one area where it excells over everything else, along with the old N.O.S. bottle number,- is that your motor, whatever it is will only come under mechanical stress when its ON boost or ON the bottle.- Only those few seconds, minutes (how often does one nail it hard, 20% or 35% of the time???) With Supercharging or normally aspiration with high compression etc. your motor is just that exactely, :- under boost from the supercharger all the time....the turbo or nitros oxide exerts strain/stress on the motor 'on demand' only. Allowing the motor to operate in low boost, low compression mode for a LOT of the time u are driving. This is one of the reasons one can find 30 plus year old Porsche Turbo's that still run strong with a 250.000 mile, un-opened motor.- Its been unstressed most of it driving life. NOS has been around since forever....only making power when needed.....and as one of u said : 450bhp plus a soft hit of 150 from a NOS bottle will give u plenty, reliable poke.
Regards to all, tai.
Josh,
An alternative to getting your 500bhp, though I'm not sure how streetable it would be:
http://www.fordmuscle.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=26729&forum=16&17
Phil
1979 Longchamp GTS
London, SW3
An alternative to getting your 500bhp, though I'm not sure how streetable it would be:
http://www.fordmuscle.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=26729&forum=16&17
Phil
1979 Longchamp GTS
London, SW3
Tai,
the twin screw auto-rotor supercharger (KenneBell) does not boost the motor during cruising, which helps maintain the good fuel economy of a motor, and will assist longevity as you have proposed. However, mash the gas pedal and FULL boost is provided in less than 1/2 second at any rpm, no spooling up like a turbo charger or centrifugal supercharger. The auto-rotor supercharger is used by Mercedes on it's various supercharged autos, and on the Ford GT40. The blower itself is very reliable, and the only recommended maintenance is an oil change every 12,000 miles.
I like turbos too, they are very efficient at what they do, but in recommending a forced induction system I must consider the use of the vehicle. On a race track where rpm's are kept up and traction is pushed to the limit, a turbo is a good choice. On the street, my recommendation is the KenneBell auto-rotor supercharger. You can drive daily in the Clark Kent mode and have superman available when needed.
Phil, your link supports my personal choice of a stroked 393 Cleveland using stock heads (some porting) and a high lift hydraulic roller cam.
I have mentioned Michael Menolascino's motor on the PIBB in the past. He's making 758 bhp at 7300 rpm with at 422 cubic inch Clevor. His cam is lifting the intake valves 0.795" according to the article in PI magazine, and the motor's compression ratio is set at 14 to 1. So this is no street motor, and the valvetrain will not go too far between maintenance intervals! However, my point in brining up his motor was to point out that those are oem heads he's making that power with, the same heads found on most Panteras. That potential is lurking within every 351C found in a Pantera. Back off on the rpm, cam specs and compression ratio to achieve reliability & drive-ability, and you have a 383C with about 450 to 500 bhp.
your friend on the PIBB, George
the twin screw auto-rotor supercharger (KenneBell) does not boost the motor during cruising, which helps maintain the good fuel economy of a motor, and will assist longevity as you have proposed. However, mash the gas pedal and FULL boost is provided in less than 1/2 second at any rpm, no spooling up like a turbo charger or centrifugal supercharger. The auto-rotor supercharger is used by Mercedes on it's various supercharged autos, and on the Ford GT40. The blower itself is very reliable, and the only recommended maintenance is an oil change every 12,000 miles.
I like turbos too, they are very efficient at what they do, but in recommending a forced induction system I must consider the use of the vehicle. On a race track where rpm's are kept up and traction is pushed to the limit, a turbo is a good choice. On the street, my recommendation is the KenneBell auto-rotor supercharger. You can drive daily in the Clark Kent mode and have superman available when needed.
Phil, your link supports my personal choice of a stroked 393 Cleveland using stock heads (some porting) and a high lift hydraulic roller cam.
I have mentioned Michael Menolascino's motor on the PIBB in the past. He's making 758 bhp at 7300 rpm with at 422 cubic inch Clevor. His cam is lifting the intake valves 0.795" according to the article in PI magazine, and the motor's compression ratio is set at 14 to 1. So this is no street motor, and the valvetrain will not go too far between maintenance intervals! However, my point in brining up his motor was to point out that those are oem heads he's making that power with, the same heads found on most Panteras. That potential is lurking within every 351C found in a Pantera. Back off on the rpm, cam specs and compression ratio to achieve reliability & drive-ability, and you have a 383C with about 450 to 500 bhp.
your friend on the PIBB, George
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