Skip to main content

Closed39 replies

what have i got?

S SEL (Guest)
> why do people alwasy question whether a solid lifter engine is "streetable"?
> why wouldn't it be?

Streetable may refer to the RPM band the cam operates in or on how aggressive
the lobe is. If the cam is designed to operate in the 4500 to 8000 RPM band,
it won't work well on the street where you operate outside that RPM band most
of the time. Also, the more aggressive a lobe is, the faster it wears and the
harder it is on the rest of the bits in the valve train. Furthermore, a solid
roller cam has needle bearings which may or may not be pressure fed at idle and
can get hammered by the lash. Some cam companies recommend solid roller lifters
be inspected every oil change which means removing the intake manifold.

+++++i think the dyno numbers show it is meant to run more around the 4,000 to 6,000 range...


The part number you list appears to be a CNC-ported version so perhaps they
have improved things but I'd still be suspicious of the quality of components
used.

+++++ noted as to the quality of the heads - yes, they are the ported version



> anything special about the design (flat top) or build?

Flat top is usually used to refer to pistons, not heads. You probably
mean closed or open chamber. The heads are nominally closed chamber but
the chamber volume listed for that part number is 74 cc's which is closer
to an open chamber volume though I suspect that means the chambers were
unshrouded.


++++++++ when i called the head mfgr, they said the chamber size for the ported version is 78 (even though it says 74 on the website) - what does that change in your answer, if anything?

> SA Gear 9 position tru-roller with Torrington bearing

SA Gear makes the sprockets. I prefer other sprockets but more important
is the chain manufacturer. If your chain says Rolon, it is junk.

++++++ i'll try to find out

does the crank have a snout spacer
installed to take up the difference between the 351W style
snout of the Eagle crank and the 351C snout?


+++++++ i'll find out



> Bore (.40 over/385c.i.) and hone block

Some get nervous at 0.040" pver unless they've sonic tested the block first.


+++++ noted



> Dyno (500HP/472lb torque)

Do you have the dyno sheets or was this an estimate from the builder?


++++++ see prior posting



> Edelbrock air gap intake manifold (dual plane)

The Air Gap has 2V ports but Pro Comps are a copy of the CHI 3V heads.
Is there a spacer to handle the port transition?


++++++ i'll find out - if there is, does that take care of the "mismatch" issue that George points out?



CHI used to do that
before dual and single plane intakes were available to match the 3V
port location. Eyeballing the CNC port version of the Pro Comp heads,
it's not clear to me what intake manifold they were designed for.

> Moroso oil pan

Is this in a Pantera? The Moroso 351C pan I'm familiar with is not
gated nor baffled for road race. A Pantera with good tires can generate
enough lateral g's to uncover the oil pick up in a pan without any
baffling.


+++++ upon reading the full entry on the invoice it says:

"Moroso stock depth pan with internal slosh baffles"



> does this seem like a "streetable" engine or one that is designed primarily
> for racing?

You need to find the cam card and post the information here before we can tell.
You also need it for the lash information.


++++++ i'll get the cam card - but i am thinking the answer is yes since the dyno information showed the sweet spot between 4-6K rpm



Dan Jones[/QUOTE]
George PGeorge PAdmin.
quote:
Originally posted by SEL:

... hmmm - sounds kind of grim ....



Stephen

The modern breed of motor builders and I do not see eye to eye. Guys in tune with the Windsor V8 scene are seldom in tune with the 351 Cleveland scene. A drag race engine only sees 250 miles in a year's use. Drag racing is actually easier on a motor than road racing, endurance racing, even easier than hard driving on a mountain road. Drag racers don't have a concept for what a soundly built, durable engine is. Please don't take my comments about your motor wrong, they are not meant to criticize, there's nothing constructive about criticism. That was this old coots tough, honest, evaluation based on the information you presented. AND ... since this motor is installed in a sports car I always expect it to be capable of enduring hard driving on a twisty mountain road without leaving the driver stranded; cruising the malt shop is for rat rods and hot rods. I do have your best interest at heart, and I do have a plan B for you; here's the game plan to avoid that future full of trouble I predicted:

(1) Get the sonic check from the builder if you can, so you'll know how much cylinder wall remains. If the thrust walls are no thinner than 0.120" anywhere, then you can work with this motor. If the walls are too thin, then you can adopt the attitude of PLT-1, just drive it till it breaks. Smiler

(2) I don't know how many miles are already on the motor since the rebuild, but if its not too many, and the cylinder walls aren't too thin ... I'd sell the TCI Rattler to some poor chap on eBay and buy an ATI damper. Hopefully this will save the crankshaft and/or cylinder block.

(3) One other question to ask the builder ... did he do anything to strengthen the pin that fastens the distributor gear to the distributor shaft, to prevent it from shearing? That ARP oil pump drive shaft will shear the stock Ford roll pins every time ... the MSD distributors use a coiled roll pin, which may be a little tougher, but forum members have claimed the coiled roll pins have sheared too. If he installed a beefier pin, or double pinned the gear, then cool you're OK. If not, that pin will most likely shear and leave you stranded sometime in the future, to avoid that you can pull the distributor and beef up the pin. If it were me I would prefer to replace the ARP shaft with a standard shaft designed to twist, but that involves dropping the oil pan, it will most likely be easier to pull the distributor.

With those issues resolved you can drive your car and enjoy it until a motor problem crops up. The thin rings are not designed for high mileage, they are racing rings, so they'll wear more quickly than street rings. Your motor may also tend to burn some oil, time will tell. And I would expect the Pro Comp heads to eventually develop a problem, but until then there's no reason to not enjoy the motor. As problems crop up you can develop a strategy for resolving them; one at a time or all at once.

That's not so grim, is it?

You and every forum member always have my committment to do whatever is within my capability to help and/or advise.

-G
be4yoube4youMember
Interesting reading this tread.

Sel you have what you have in your car, enjoy it and have fun. If it’s working that’s good!! You will find out if it’s trash. If you going to build a new engine believe me you want to buy the god stuff to a certain amount and find a good builder. It’s so important that the builder knows what he doing and knows what will work together. I have had some engine built for me over the year’s some cheap and some costly. The cheap one’s brake down pretty fast because the parts and HP aren’t made to be. I have also build costly engine were the engine builder didn’t have the knowledge and broke the engine.
The right parts, engine builder and the right goal for use and you will get a good engine.

If I want a high RPM engine I will go for solid lifter (Not talking about 6500 RPM’s), for your application I will go for hydraulic. You don’t need solid you don’t gain with it and it’s more work to.

You have what you have - but in my opinion, if (IF) it starts to brake down think of getting a new one.. don’t use to much money on it, have fun with it 500 hp is a lot of fun

Good summery you post Cowboy!
S SEL (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
quote:
Originally posted by SEL:

... hmmm - sounds kind of grim ....



Stephen

The modern breed of motor builders and I do not see eye to eye. Guys in tune with the Windsor V8 scene are seldom in tune with the 351 Cleveland scene.


>>>agree...just want to point out, for what its worth, that he runs a cleveland and not a windsor in his mustang



A drag race engine only sees 250 miles in a year's use. Drag racing is actually easier on a motor than road racing, endurance racing, even easier than hard driving on a mountain road. Drag racers don't have a concept for what a soundly built, durable engine is.


>>>don't know anything about drag racing - so can't comment - but my hope is that if the guy can build the country's fastest cleveland engine (at least for purposes of a quarter mile) that he has at least enough of a head on his shoulders to build a good streetable version - of course, who knows, it may truly be a piece of junk



Please don't take my comments about your motor wrong, they are not meant to criticize, there's nothing constructive about criticism. That was this old coots tough, honest, evaluation based on the information you presented.


>>>George, i said it in my very first post to you - i always respect your opinion - and i did thank you for it - it is better to know the truth than be blissfully ignorant - i have read all your comments with an open mind (if not with a bit of "oh cr*p, what have i done")

AND ... since this motor is installed in a sports car I always expect it to be capable of enduring hard driving on a twisty mountain road without leaving the driver stranded; cruising the malt shop is for rat rods and hot rods.

>>>god blessed right!

I do have your best interest at heart, and I do have a plan B for you; here's the game plan to avoid that future full of trouble I predicted:

(1) Get the sonic check from the builder if you can, so you'll know how much cylinder wall remains. If the thrust walls are no thinner than 0.120" anywhere, then you can work with this motor. If the walls are too thin, then you can adopt the attitude of PLT-1, just drive it till it breaks. Smiler


>>>trying to get in touch with the builder to ask for that and the cam card



(2) I don't know how many miles are already on the motor since the rebuild,

>>>about 1 thousand



but if its not too many, and the cylinder walls aren't too thin ... I'd sell the TCI Rattler to some poor chap on eBay and buy an ATI damper. Hopefully this will save the crankshaft and/or cylinder block.


>>>OK - i will discuss this with Jeff (the engine builder)



(3) One other question to ask the builder ... did he do anything to strengthen the pin that fastens the distributor gear to the distributor shaft, to prevent it from shearing? That ARP oil pump drive shaft will shear the stock Ford roll pins every time ... the MSD distributors use a coiled roll pin, which may be a little tougher, but forum members have claimed the coiled roll pins have sheared too. If he installed a beefier pin, or double pinned the gear, then cool you're OK. If not, that pin will most likely shear and leave you stranded sometime in the future, to avoid that you can pull the distributor and beef up the pin. If it were me I would prefer to replace the ARP shaft with a standard shaft designed to twist, but that involves dropping the oil pan, it will most likely be easier to pull the distributor.

>>>I'll find out from him



With those issues resolved you can drive your car and enjoy it until a motor problem crops up.


>>>hopefully no time soon...think a good thought!



The thin rings are not designed for high mileage, they are racing rings, so they'll wear more quickly than street rings. Your motor may also tend to burn some oil, time will tell.

>>>just to be clear, why would it burn oil?


And I would expect the Pro Comp heads to eventually develop a problem, but until then there's no reason to not enjoy the motor.

>>>everything else aside in all of these posts, when i put my foot down, a REALLY big smile spreads across my face - at times replaced with a HOLY SH*T for how fast the thing is - this is the fastest car i have ever owned



As problems crop up you can develop a strategy for resolving them; one at a time or all at once.


>>>yep

That's not so grim, is it?


>>>not at all...and thanks



You and every forum member always have my committment to do whatever is within my capability to help and/or advise.

>>>and we all appreciate it very much



-G
garth66garth66"When speed is the only thing that counts"
quote:
but if its not too many, and the cylinder walls aren't too thin ... I'd sell the TCI Rattler to some poor chap on eBay and buy an ATI damper. Hopefully this will save the crankshaft and/or cylinder block.

>>>OK - i will discuss this with Jeff (the engine builder)

An inexpensive Damper option is the Powerforce+PLUS Series 9000 SFI APPROVED damper, Part No. D-90006. It lists for $245 at Flatlander Racing, but the exact same damper (part no., packaging, and all) is also available under the Scat brand/label for only $185 from Flatlander racing.

Powerforce brand: http://www.flatlanderracing.co...erforce-dampers.html
Scat/Powerforce brand: http://www.flatlanderracing.com/scat-dampers.html

BTW - The Powerforce damper is drilled for both 4-bolt and 3-bolt pulleys, so no pulley mounting problems.

Good looking car! Drive the wheels off, and fix it if it breaks.
D danieljonesMember
> i was told by the seller that this was the first rebuild - so why he went
> 40 over and not 30 over i don't know, i'll try to find out

The block may have been heavily worn and out-of-round, requiring that oversize
to clean up properly.

> peak torque of 475 ft lbs happens at 4,908 rpm
> peak hp of 491.8 happens at 6,301
> i think the dyno numbers show it is meant to run more around the 4,000 to 6,000 range...

For best acceleration, you shift approximately 500 RPM above the HP peak.
That's 6800 RPM for this engine. Given the 3.75" stroke, that's the
equivalent mean piston speed of 7000 RPM in a stock stroke 351C.
That's sporty for a street engine but as long as it pulls well in your
normal operating range, shouldn't be a problem. If, as I suspect, your
engine was tested with dyno headers and no mufflers (or efficient ones),
your engine, as installed, may make less power at a lower RPM. Typical
Pantera mufflers can lose 50+ HP on an engine like yours.

> when i called the head mfgr, they said the chamber size for the ported version
> is 78 (even though it says 74 on the website) - what does that change in your answer,
> if anything?

It means your compression ratio is slightly lower.

> if there is, does that take care of the "mismatch" issue that George points out?

Yes. It's hard to judge by the picture but the ported version of the heads may
have a larger port size at the head and your builder may have port matched the
manifold so the smaller intake port falls within the larger head port. If so,
the adapter plate isn't required. Not optimal but, in our dyno testing of 2V
intakes on 4V heads, the Air Gap 2V still worked pretty well that way.

> "Moroso stock depth pan with internal slosh baffles"

If you corner/brake/accelerate hard, that pan will be insufficient. When
you are shifting at 6800 RPM, you'll pump a lot of oil to the top of the
engine. What's left in the pan can slosh away from the pickup under simultaneous
hard braking and/or cornring. A gated and baffled Pantera road race pan is
what you need, Armondo makes a good one, as does Aviad.

> An inexpensive Damper option is the Powerforce+PLUS Series 9000 SFI APPROVED damper,
> Part No. D-90006.

That's a cheap Chinese damper trying to pass itself off as a quality part (the Powerbond
damper from Australia). If you google up guys who attempt to drag race with them, you'll
find a number who have suffered failures. The real Powerbond, Romac or ATI are better
parts.

Dan Jones
S SEL (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:
> > peak torque of 475 ft lbs happens at 4,908 rpm
> peak hp of 491.8 happens at 6,301
> i think the dyno numbers show it is meant to run more around the 4,000 to 6,000 range...

For best acceleration, you shift approximately 500 RPM above the HP peak.
That's 6800 RPM for this engine. Given the 3.75" stroke, that's the
equivalent mean piston speed of 7000 RPM in a stock stroke 351C.
That's sporty for a street engine but as long as it pulls well in your
normal operating range, shouldn't be a problem. If, as I suspect, your
engine was tested with dyno headers and no mufflers (or efficient ones),
your engine, as installed, may make less power at a lower RPM. Typical
Pantera mufflers can lose 50+ HP on an engine like yours.



does this mean that the redline for this engine is 6,800 rpm?
S SEL (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:
If, as I suspect, your engine was tested with dyno headers and no mufflers (or efficient ones), your engine, as installed, may make less power at a lower RPM. Typical Pantera mufflers can lose 50+ HP on an engine like yours.


the car has Hall big bore headers and mufflers - do they result in the kind of hp loss you are referring to?

thanks stephen
D danieljonesMember
No. Redline is the maximum safe RPM. That can be set by
the valve train (valve springs, rockers, etc.) or the
rotating assembly (connecting rods, rod bolts, etc.).

I've not tested the Hall big bore system but others have and
report similar horsepower losses. The collector on the
Hall headers looks to be a restriction but you can cut and
weld on a different collector. We got all of HP loss back
by using Magnaflow straight through type mufflers. I'll
be testing 2.5" single inlet, dual 2.5" outlet versions of
those mufflers soon.

Dan Jones
Previous
Views: 942
Post

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×