Coz, the prices you are talking about for rebuilding ZF's sounds very very high to me. Much higher than anything I've ever heard of. Don't give up yet, I think you'll find everyone here believes the ZF to be the absolute best thing on the car. Yes, expensive, but not expensive enough I would replace it with 5 and 6 grand Porsche trannys, which I feel to be VERY expensive in relation to the ZF.
Synro's are 300.00 each, gears are 1200.00 each, just ask Lloyd. Then there is the other parts that aren't any cheaper.
I have talked to several people that have had their boxes worked on and got hammerd with 6000.00 to 8000.00 bills.
It's not so much the labor, Lloyd is very reasonable on that. It's the parts that are the killer.
No Kevin, it's not normal. Sorry to be the one to tell you that....
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt Bradley:
Coz, the prices you are talking about for rebuilding ZF's sounds very very high to me.
I have talked to several people that have had their boxes worked on and got hammerd with 6000.00 to 8000.00 bills.
It's not so much the labor, Lloyd is very reasonable on that. It's the parts that are the killer.
No Kevin, it's not normal. Sorry to be the one to tell you that....
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt Bradley:
Coz, the prices you are talking about for rebuilding ZF's sounds very very high to me.
ASk Lloyd What, you have never brought your box direct to me. Someone JACKED UP the INVOICE if you got charged that much, I will sell a Brand new ZF with your choice ratios for $8800.00
Do you take trade in's Lloyd ?
How much are your syncro's and gear sets then ?
How much are your syncro's and gear sets then ?
quote:Originally posted by Lloyd Butfoy:
ASk Lloyd What, you have never brought your box direct to me. Someone JACKED UP the INVOICE if you got charged that much, I will sell a Brand new ZF with your choice ratios for $8800.00
quote:Originally posted by Lloyd Butfoy:
ASk Lloyd What, you have never brought your box direct to me. Someone JACKED UP the INVOICE if you got charged that much, I will sell a Brand new ZF with your choice ratios for $8800.00
That is half the price as what I was told it would cost. I remember hearing it was 15 grand for a new one and ten grand for a rebuild. My wife told me if anything goes south on the tranny we will have to sell the car for scrap. (She hates the car anyway and would love to see a car crusher go to work on it).
Me too DeTom. Except I've been told the 6 speed new is about 16 grand. Many have told me that their rebuilds have cost them 6000.00+ that needed a couple gears and syncro's.
Guess the saying Believe none of what you hear and 1/2 of what you see applies to rebuilding the ZF if you hear it from anyone but Lloyd.
[/QUOTE]
That is half the price as what I was told it would cost. I remember hearing it was 15 grand for a new one and ten grand for a rebuild. My wife told me if anything goes south on the tranny we will have to sell the car for scrap. (She hates the car anyway and would love to see a car crusher go to work on it).[/QUOTE]
Guess the saying Believe none of what you hear and 1/2 of what you see applies to rebuilding the ZF if you hear it from anyone but Lloyd.
[/QUOTE]
That is half the price as what I was told it would cost. I remember hearing it was 15 grand for a new one and ten grand for a rebuild. My wife told me if anything goes south on the tranny we will have to sell the car for scrap. (She hates the car anyway and would love to see a car crusher go to work on it).[/QUOTE]
Synchro are $225 and gear sets are $900 no trade in's. REMEMBER you can always call and ask. (714)516-1216 RBT
This is great news. I won't have to have my car crushed after all. 
Still I hope my ZF holds up untill I get my second morgatge paid off from replaceing the motor. I think by then my wife will be talking to me again. 
Still I hope my ZF holds up untill I get my second morgatge paid off from replaceing the motor. I think by then my wife will be talking to me again.
Thanks Lloyd....Maybe it's not so scary after all. I'll be calling you.
Thanks.
Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by Lloyd Butfoy:
Synchro are $225 and gear sets are $900 no trade in's. REMEMBER you can always call and ask. (714)516-1216 RBT
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
This is great news. I won't have to have my car crushed after all.
Coz. So in the end, I guess you were just thinking aloud! I often find that our wonderful Pantera vendors have simple and cost effective solutions for us. Thank goodness for our vendors and great news for you!
Mike
Yes Mike. Was going on what I'd been hearing for the last year from others and figured it would be easier to just bring it out in the open and see what others had to say.
Great news, absoultely.... bad news, still can't afford to have my ZF rebuilt. Just don't have the cash to throw into right now. My car is my daily driver, when it's down, so am I. I don't even own a second car. Don't want one. In all of the 8 or 9 Porsches, 2 Ferrari's, 2 Lamborghini and 2 Pantera's I've owened in the last 38 years, they have all been daily drivers. If they can't be or become too big a pain in the butt, then I get rid of them. I've had this one since 2000, longer than I've ever owned any car like this, and I can tell you for sure, it's been a piece of work and very fustrating at times. I've put up with more from this car than I have any others I've ever owned. I almost feel that I have had to rebuild this car, wait, I pretty much have, it's still not done and I really don't believe it ever will be anymore.. It might have been easier to have just gone with my fisrt thought which was to by a GT40 kit back in 2000. I look back on all the money spent, rebuilds, time, upgrades, redo's and everything else owning this car has put me through and cost me. I wish I had just bought a GT 40 kit which I was going to do before buying this car and built my own from the ground up. Which I will finally do if I sell this one. Like I said, looking back, I wish I would have gone that way now rather than straighten out someone else's nightmare. Then I can set it up the way I want right from the beginning using the drivetrain and parts I know work right from the beginning. Of course, I'll finally have to break down and by a second car which would become my first car for awhile if and when I do this :-)
Going to pull the box next week and see what's going on with the clutch set up, I really think this is where my problem is, well, I'm hoping anyway. I'll have it out in a matter of hours, a day for getting parts if I need them and back in the next day. a 3 day time period. Will also check the ring gear bolts and pull the side covers and see if there is anything noticable going on. If it's not the problem, I'll just drive it carefully as long as I can until the ZF dies and then decide if I sell the car as is or work out the deal with a conversion to a Porsche box and keep the ZF to take apart and learn from over time as I go through it myself.
It's the only part of the car I haven't been into, so maybe it's time for that too. If I had to pay the vendors to do all my work, I'd be even broker than I am now driving my Pantera. It's been that way with all my cars. But really with me, my enjoyment comes from working on it as much as driving it, most of the time anyway :-)
But I agree, the vendors most of the time are what keep us going and on the road. As with all vendors, no matter what you drive. But the Pantera vendors do go that extra mile considering these cars are 30+ years old. They are great people.
Great news, absoultely.... bad news, still can't afford to have my ZF rebuilt. Just don't have the cash to throw into right now. My car is my daily driver, when it's down, so am I. I don't even own a second car. Don't want one. In all of the 8 or 9 Porsches, 2 Ferrari's, 2 Lamborghini and 2 Pantera's I've owened in the last 38 years, they have all been daily drivers. If they can't be or become too big a pain in the butt, then I get rid of them. I've had this one since 2000, longer than I've ever owned any car like this, and I can tell you for sure, it's been a piece of work and very fustrating at times. I've put up with more from this car than I have any others I've ever owned. I almost feel that I have had to rebuild this car, wait, I pretty much have, it's still not done and I really don't believe it ever will be anymore.. It might have been easier to have just gone with my fisrt thought which was to by a GT40 kit back in 2000. I look back on all the money spent, rebuilds, time, upgrades, redo's and everything else owning this car has put me through and cost me. I wish I had just bought a GT 40 kit which I was going to do before buying this car and built my own from the ground up. Which I will finally do if I sell this one. Like I said, looking back, I wish I would have gone that way now rather than straighten out someone else's nightmare. Then I can set it up the way I want right from the beginning using the drivetrain and parts I know work right from the beginning. Of course, I'll finally have to break down and by a second car which would become my first car for awhile if and when I do this :-)
Going to pull the box next week and see what's going on with the clutch set up, I really think this is where my problem is, well, I'm hoping anyway. I'll have it out in a matter of hours, a day for getting parts if I need them and back in the next day. a 3 day time period. Will also check the ring gear bolts and pull the side covers and see if there is anything noticable going on. If it's not the problem, I'll just drive it carefully as long as I can until the ZF dies and then decide if I sell the car as is or work out the deal with a conversion to a Porsche box and keep the ZF to take apart and learn from over time as I go through it myself.
It's the only part of the car I haven't been into, so maybe it's time for that too. If I had to pay the vendors to do all my work, I'd be even broker than I am now driving my Pantera. It's been that way with all my cars. But really with me, my enjoyment comes from working on it as much as driving it, most of the time anyway :-)
But I agree, the vendors most of the time are what keep us going and on the road. As with all vendors, no matter what you drive. But the Pantera vendors do go that extra mile considering these cars are 30+ years old. They are great people.
I look forward to someday being able to buy the COZ ULTRA transaxle for Panteras. An infinitly variable wonderment that is garunteed to 12,000 horsepower and enables an unlimited top end.
When you find one, be sure to let us all know.
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
I look forward to someday being able to buy the COZ ULTRA transaxle for Panteras. An infinitly variable wonderment that is garunteed to 12,000 horsepower and enables an unlimited top end.
Coz,
You're breakin' my heart. I won't change your mind, but I can't imagine any of those cars you've owned (except for the Porsches) being your every day driver: dropping the kids off at school, taking gramps to the doctor, sitting in rush hour traffic, rainstorms and all ther other things that would kill me, or my Pantera. But all I've spent on ZF in the past 20 years or so was $3,000 for the following:
2nd Gear
Thrust Washer
Split Shim
Bearing Bushing
Synchro Body
Thrust Washer
4th Gear Set
5th Gear Set
Safety Wire Kit
Gasket and Seal Kit
Stainless Vent Tube
You're breakin' my heart. I won't change your mind, but I can't imagine any of those cars you've owned (except for the Porsches) being your every day driver: dropping the kids off at school, taking gramps to the doctor, sitting in rush hour traffic, rainstorms and all ther other things that would kill me, or my Pantera. But all I've spent on ZF in the past 20 years or so was $3,000 for the following:
2nd Gear
Thrust Washer
Split Shim
Bearing Bushing
Synchro Body
Thrust Washer
4th Gear Set
5th Gear Set
Safety Wire Kit
Gasket and Seal Kit
Stainless Vent Tube
I'm OK Deeb. Just one of those down times when it seems everything goes wrong at the same time when cash on hand is low. The Ferrari's & Lamborhini's didn't work out at all as daily drivers, that's why I got rid of them. All the Porsches did very well as daily drivers. The Pantera has been doing ok as well up until recently, but I am working on fixing that problem right now.
Took it over to a friends house today that custom builds ZF's for Corvette's and he took a look at was going on. Different ZF in the Corvette, but he knows both types very well. He builds about 50 Corvette boxes a year. Without going inside yet, he believes I may have a seperating clutch disc as I expected, He also thinks I may have a problem with the passenger side output drive axle, drive gear, pinon gear or cross shaft and that assembly area and possibly a 1st & 2nd gear Synchro's. He's not real sure yet and won't really know anything until he get's inside. But he's going to go through it for me while I watch, help and learn. The best part about it is he lives 30 miles from my house and he has a 1st class shop on his property.
So I am going to wait until we have it out and a part before making any decisions of what course of direction I'm going to take next as to doing a conversion or fixing the ZF. It's a real pity the Corvette ZF wouldn't work in the Pantera. They can be had all day long, very custom built with several enhancements for 3500.00 complete.
I plan on pulling it next week and the adventure will begin.
You've made out real well with the work you've had done. It must have been some time ago that you had all this done for 3000.00. The 3 gear sets and synchro alone today would cost you 2925.00 plus the 1200.00 for the labor, per Lloyd's post about pricing. Today that would cost over 4100.00 without the other parts you mentioned.
I haven't given up yet on the ZF.... :-)
Took it over to a friends house today that custom builds ZF's for Corvette's and he took a look at was going on. Different ZF in the Corvette, but he knows both types very well. He builds about 50 Corvette boxes a year. Without going inside yet, he believes I may have a seperating clutch disc as I expected, He also thinks I may have a problem with the passenger side output drive axle, drive gear, pinon gear or cross shaft and that assembly area and possibly a 1st & 2nd gear Synchro's. He's not real sure yet and won't really know anything until he get's inside. But he's going to go through it for me while I watch, help and learn. The best part about it is he lives 30 miles from my house and he has a 1st class shop on his property.
So I am going to wait until we have it out and a part before making any decisions of what course of direction I'm going to take next as to doing a conversion or fixing the ZF. It's a real pity the Corvette ZF wouldn't work in the Pantera. They can be had all day long, very custom built with several enhancements for 3500.00 complete.
I plan on pulling it next week and the adventure will begin.
You've made out real well with the work you've had done. It must have been some time ago that you had all this done for 3000.00. The 3 gear sets and synchro alone today would cost you 2925.00 plus the 1200.00 for the labor, per Lloyd's post about pricing. Today that would cost over 4100.00 without the other parts you mentioned.
I haven't given up yet on the ZF.... :-)
quote:Originally posted by deeb:
Coz,
You're breakin' my heart. I won't change your mind, but I can't imagine any of those cars you've owned (except for the Porsches) being your every day driver: dropping the kids off at school, taking gramps to the doctor, sitting in rush hour traffic, rainstorms and all ther other things that would kill me, or my Pantera. But all I've spent on ZF in the past 20 years or so was $3,000 for the following:
2nd Gear
Thrust Washer
Split Shim
Bearing Bushing
Synchro Body
Thrust Washer
4th Gear Set
5th Gear Set
Safety Wire Kit
Gasket and Seal Kit
Stainless Vent Tube
May I offer a little different way of thinking? I'll offer some stories (experiences) and give the moral of the story...how to think about it.
I have two vehicles, a Pantera and a Toyota. One's for fun the other for transportation. The transportation vehicle, the Toyota, is just to get from point A to point B and back everyday, unless I decide I want to four wheel it once in a while, which isn't often. It's desirable qualities are reliability, economy, resale value, comfort, visibility, easy to drive, and it's got the style package, TRD stuff, options, so I think it's got some style too. I pulled the front wheels and brake calipers last weekend to put new disk brake pads on before the old ones wore down and harmed the rotors. At 60,700 miles, the front calipers were 65% as thick as the new brake pads I was going to install, so they were 35% worn down. I didn't need to replace them, but will, only I can wait a couple of years before I do it and still I'll have 50% wear only.
So I drive the Toyota easy in traffic, don't rev it too high, don't race to the next stop light, since I've got them all timed out already and 5 mph over the speed limit gets me green lights all the way there and back, usually. It keeps wear on my machine to a minimum, keeps me from having virtually any maintenence costs, keeps my driving record clean, and keeps me out of accidents driving it like that. Good gas mileage too. Just the routine costs of gas, oil changes (4x/yr), air filters (3x), spark plugs (1x), and it's in tip top shape, since I keep it washed and parked in a garage.
The Pantera is for sport. It's to drive, and secondarily all that other stuff, like getting photographed and generally stared at and the awe factor. Sometimes I want to drive it but avoid all the stares, sometimes I like all the attention. What I want to do is avoid getting tickets when I drive it, and people staring at it sometimes makes me want to oblige and show off, like a little performance demo, for the masses stuck bact at the newly green light I was at and they're still at, as they shrink to small dots in my rearview. That's fun. But it can be costly.
I think you see the moral of the stories.
May I be permitted to suggest that you can just double clutch it to get the performance while waiting to do the overhaul? Figure out where the rpm's are that allow the silkiest smooth operation of the ZF, speed/rpm's for each shift point, there's only 5 so it's easy to figure out. Most of the time, drive like that. It's easy on the equipment, and you'll get more miles between overhauls like that. Most of the time, it's just point A to point B anyway, so you may drive it like I drive my Toyota, and get way better service life and economy from your Pantera & ZF. The more I push my cars in the past, the more repairs they needed. And race cars get overhauled from front to rear spoiler between every racing event, polar opposite to the point A to point B vehicle.
And, since I like to get that sport driving adrenaline rush, I'm prepared to track my Pantera and do the obligatory repairs and maintenance which goes with that behavior pattern.
When I do, ultimately, have to R&R my ZF, I'd like to be able to upgrade it to the state-of-the-art, so I'm sort of making a few suggestions to our usual ZF guy to maybe look that direction and see if them triple cone rings can be adapted to the ZF. His bro already did the air shift rapido update to his experimental ZF, and it gnashes gears. So, I know he wants to look around and see if he can get the latest and greatest in his tricked out ZF sport machine.
And even though I sort of drive gently in the Toyota, on cold mornings it doesn't shift as amoothly as it's supposed to. Oil viscosities inhibit the synchros at low temp, so I just wait until it wants to slide in gear easily instead of forcing it. I wish to delay, not accelerate any repairs schedule for my daily driver.
One last story. I drove my very first vehicle until the wheels nearly fell off. An Econoline 200, 1969 Ford Van. I drove it from 150,000 miles until I sold it with 300,000 miles. Back then, I was in love with it and going to keep it forever. I drove it like it was a Pantera, which was what I dreamed of. I had to replace everything, and I mean everything on that van, with the cheeziest of hand tools, too.
No more. I don't even drive my Pantera as hard as I drove that Econoline Van. It would be way too expensive. Unlike the Econoline Van, I've never had my Pantera's wheels airborn! Guess I wanted that van to be a 4x4, like the Baja 1000 racer, along with the Pantera function, along with the daily driver function. I grew up and now think, "If I'm pushing machinery to 100% or 110% of design performance, I should expect 50% to 25% of the 'life expectancy' of a normal vehicle of the same make,model, year, mileage, etc. I also know it's really hard for one vehicle to 'do-it-all' and serve each function well.
Finally, you got a beefy motor, Coz. This means you can put more stress on the ZF's innards, which means you can make it need repair just that much quicker. Just ignore them stares for a while, and don't show everybody what it'll do. Just when you want to, which the more often, the more expensive.
I'm thinkin' "triple cone synchro rings" for speed shiftin' the ZF, that's what I wanna see someday. You too? If you're gonna tear her down, learn all about it, maybe it would be kool to trick it out while doin' all the talkin', learnin' and searchin' and finally the wrenchin'. I don't know if it can be done to a ZF, but I know there's commercially avaiable triple cone ring synchros for the purchase price, just not for the ZF, that I know of.
Just a few ideas for you to kick around is all.
I have two vehicles, a Pantera and a Toyota. One's for fun the other for transportation. The transportation vehicle, the Toyota, is just to get from point A to point B and back everyday, unless I decide I want to four wheel it once in a while, which isn't often. It's desirable qualities are reliability, economy, resale value, comfort, visibility, easy to drive, and it's got the style package, TRD stuff, options, so I think it's got some style too. I pulled the front wheels and brake calipers last weekend to put new disk brake pads on before the old ones wore down and harmed the rotors. At 60,700 miles, the front calipers were 65% as thick as the new brake pads I was going to install, so they were 35% worn down. I didn't need to replace them, but will, only I can wait a couple of years before I do it and still I'll have 50% wear only.
So I drive the Toyota easy in traffic, don't rev it too high, don't race to the next stop light, since I've got them all timed out already and 5 mph over the speed limit gets me green lights all the way there and back, usually. It keeps wear on my machine to a minimum, keeps me from having virtually any maintenence costs, keeps my driving record clean, and keeps me out of accidents driving it like that. Good gas mileage too. Just the routine costs of gas, oil changes (4x/yr), air filters (3x), spark plugs (1x), and it's in tip top shape, since I keep it washed and parked in a garage.
The Pantera is for sport. It's to drive, and secondarily all that other stuff, like getting photographed and generally stared at and the awe factor. Sometimes I want to drive it but avoid all the stares, sometimes I like all the attention. What I want to do is avoid getting tickets when I drive it, and people staring at it sometimes makes me want to oblige and show off, like a little performance demo, for the masses stuck bact at the newly green light I was at and they're still at, as they shrink to small dots in my rearview. That's fun. But it can be costly.
I think you see the moral of the stories.
May I be permitted to suggest that you can just double clutch it to get the performance while waiting to do the overhaul? Figure out where the rpm's are that allow the silkiest smooth operation of the ZF, speed/rpm's for each shift point, there's only 5 so it's easy to figure out. Most of the time, drive like that. It's easy on the equipment, and you'll get more miles between overhauls like that. Most of the time, it's just point A to point B anyway, so you may drive it like I drive my Toyota, and get way better service life and economy from your Pantera & ZF. The more I push my cars in the past, the more repairs they needed. And race cars get overhauled from front to rear spoiler between every racing event, polar opposite to the point A to point B vehicle.
And, since I like to get that sport driving adrenaline rush, I'm prepared to track my Pantera and do the obligatory repairs and maintenance which goes with that behavior pattern.
When I do, ultimately, have to R&R my ZF, I'd like to be able to upgrade it to the state-of-the-art, so I'm sort of making a few suggestions to our usual ZF guy to maybe look that direction and see if them triple cone rings can be adapted to the ZF. His bro already did the air shift rapido update to his experimental ZF, and it gnashes gears. So, I know he wants to look around and see if he can get the latest and greatest in his tricked out ZF sport machine.
And even though I sort of drive gently in the Toyota, on cold mornings it doesn't shift as amoothly as it's supposed to. Oil viscosities inhibit the synchros at low temp, so I just wait until it wants to slide in gear easily instead of forcing it. I wish to delay, not accelerate any repairs schedule for my daily driver.
One last story. I drove my very first vehicle until the wheels nearly fell off. An Econoline 200, 1969 Ford Van. I drove it from 150,000 miles until I sold it with 300,000 miles. Back then, I was in love with it and going to keep it forever. I drove it like it was a Pantera, which was what I dreamed of. I had to replace everything, and I mean everything on that van, with the cheeziest of hand tools, too.
No more. I don't even drive my Pantera as hard as I drove that Econoline Van. It would be way too expensive. Unlike the Econoline Van, I've never had my Pantera's wheels airborn! Guess I wanted that van to be a 4x4, like the Baja 1000 racer, along with the Pantera function, along with the daily driver function. I grew up and now think, "If I'm pushing machinery to 100% or 110% of design performance, I should expect 50% to 25% of the 'life expectancy' of a normal vehicle of the same make,model, year, mileage, etc. I also know it's really hard for one vehicle to 'do-it-all' and serve each function well.
Finally, you got a beefy motor, Coz. This means you can put more stress on the ZF's innards, which means you can make it need repair just that much quicker. Just ignore them stares for a while, and don't show everybody what it'll do. Just when you want to, which the more often, the more expensive.
I'm thinkin' "triple cone synchro rings" for speed shiftin' the ZF, that's what I wanna see someday. You too? If you're gonna tear her down, learn all about it, maybe it would be kool to trick it out while doin' all the talkin', learnin' and searchin' and finally the wrenchin'. I don't know if it can be done to a ZF, but I know there's commercially avaiable triple cone ring synchros for the purchase price, just not for the ZF, that I know of.
Just a few ideas for you to kick around is all.
Yea, I'm driving it really calm right now. Things start to get weird and vibrate at 4000 RPM, so I'm keeping it 3000 RPM until I see what's going on. Letting the clutch out very easy and shifting very slowly. Mine actually shifts better when it's cold than it does when it's warmed up. Go figure.
Probably going to have to actually break down and buy a second car for awhile. :-(
Probably going to have to actually break down and buy a second car for awhile. :-(
re: vibration
Check the harmonic balancer first. Most likely culprit. Excellent discussion re: harmonic balancers in recent Pantera publication. Had that problemo before, and it just gets worse until it gets fixed. Can't even run the car without the harmonic balancer, it'll tear loose the motor if you push it. Not an expensive fix though, for a talented wrench like yourself, Yahoo Buckaroo, You Can Do It! First, though, a little reading up on the subject matter in your favorite publication(s). Yep, you're like Jimi Hendix now: Experienced...wow, gotta paint the Pantera like his guitar, dude! Dig it!
Check the harmonic balancer first. Most likely culprit. Excellent discussion re: harmonic balancers in recent Pantera publication. Had that problemo before, and it just gets worse until it gets fixed. Can't even run the car without the harmonic balancer, it'll tear loose the motor if you push it. Not an expensive fix though, for a talented wrench like yourself, Yahoo Buckaroo, You Can Do It! First, though, a little reading up on the subject matter in your favorite publication(s). Yep, you're like Jimi Hendix now: Experienced...wow, gotta paint the Pantera like his guitar, dude! Dig it!
I'll check it tomorrow. But the vibration I am feeling is coming from the axle area's. But will check to be sure. Thanks Ron.