Mine is 15426378
Interesting your cam is ground with that firing order.
Any idea why?
The reason I ask is because IIRC Ford changed firing orders to improve bearing loading on longer stroke engines.
AFAIK all Cleveland based engines from the factory use the 137 order.
Any idea why?
The reason I ask is because IIRC Ford changed firing orders to improve bearing loading on longer stroke engines.
AFAIK all Cleveland based engines from the factory use the 137 order.
I think my fuzzy brain recalls the cam was modeled after a 302 cam. It is a 302 firing order.
I checked the 351 fire order (yours) against the problem showing up in my headers and It would map the same. I will probably be building new headers next time I test fit the engine in Jan/Feb.
I checked the 351 fire order (yours) against the problem showing up in my headers and It would map the same. I will probably be building new headers next time I test fit the engine in Jan/Feb.
Power Steering Raq mount mostly done. I'll be sanding primer soon! 
:
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Looking great Gary! Whats the purpose of the eyebolts?
Jeff
Jeff
The eyebolts are replacements for the tie down tabs. I cut off the tie down tabs and welded them up. If you pull on them or use them they begin to de-laminate the metal.
The eye bolts have tubing welded through the frame so tightening them down will not squish the frame and they are removable.
The eye bolts have tubing welded through the frame so tightening them down will not squish the frame and they are removable.
Man I can't hardly read the words in this forum this way.
Gary,
Could you post more pics of your steering mount?
Very Heavy Duty.
It looks like the way it is constructed that it could take the place of a lot of the braces people are putting in there to stiffen the front of the car.
What material did you use to make it?
Does it use the original mounting pattern on the sides of the frame?
It looks like a power rack unit in the pics.
What is the unit out of?
Did you build the bump steer correction into the new mount or is the rack shimmed?
Could you post more pics of your steering mount?
Very Heavy Duty.
It looks like the way it is constructed that it could take the place of a lot of the braces people are putting in there to stiffen the front of the car.
What material did you use to make it?
Does it use the original mounting pattern on the sides of the frame?
It looks like a power rack unit in the pics.
What is the unit out of?
Did you build the bump steer correction into the new mount or is the rack shimmed?
Good Questions Brooke. Big questions. There is a lot more to the power steering conversion then it seems on the outside. I suppose this is one reason it has taken me so long.
I have seen many talk down power steering conversions as handling horrible but I can see simply putting any raq in power or not; if not done without taking the geometry for consideration will in deed handle horribly and I think giving power steering a bum rap because of bad installations is short sided.
To start with the bump steer fix for the Pantera really is not a fix but rather it moves the bump steer effect to a different part of the suspension travel. While bump is much improved, droop is worse.
The real problem with bump steer is the pivot point on the Pantera raq itself is too far out our should I say spans too far. The distance between the inside pivot points is too long. Ironically the power steering raq I have is a little too short which creates the same problem. Before I assemble the car I am going to cut the raq and weld it to the right span but what I have done will get me one more step closer to paint which is my goal right now.
This is the Power steering raq, the Pantera Raq, and then the MGB raq:
I went through a lot of things before I actually located the raq. I am re-hashing old info here but it puts it all in place. First thing I did was locate the dimensions of each pivot point. I bolted tubing at each location then welded up the raq to determine the actual dimension reference point. From that I ran loaded suspcalc with the dimensions and played with raq locations. From there that gave me ball park as to where the raq needed to be. I was close right off. Actually if you just shove the raq in the area you see in the photo you will be pretty close.
Fine tuning was a matter of moving the susp up and down and checking bump steer on the wall (garage door). To do so I ran a string down the center of the car to locate center. I clamped lasers on the calipers and did a toe in alignment then found center on the wall (equal dist from center line). This is important because your toe is going to change with steering as well as your bump (Ackerman). From here you can move the raq around to locate the best bump steer.
I looked at a lot of other things on the car. My first thought was to start over with new uprights and start from scratch. The more I started looking into things the more I realized the Pantera suspension is not a bad place to start.
AIA. I wanted more AIA to reduce scrub radius but the pitfall is a compromise on the track. The Pantera upright is not too bad and I changed my mind. I am working on getting the rim further in on the hub. It is one thing where power steering will help.
Ackerman is determined by the raq forward and back. The location of the raq is already pretty good. Not so good for turning into a parking spot at Wal-Mart but better for track or highway driving. Another good reason for a power raq. I have a 76 Cutlass with LOTS of Ackerman! Grandma would love it but it will kill you on the highway if you jerk the wheel (I tell you this from experience!)
Basically most of this stuff will take care of itself so the 2 issues are getting the correct location and getting a raq with the correct distance on the inside pivots.
To start with I cut the side plates. I mounted them with the small screws for alignment then drilled larger holes for the main bolts. I welded on another plate on the frame between the lower rear mount and the sway bar mount. Then I welded tubing in the large bolt holes so I could tighten the bolts without squishing the frame.
A piece of angle iron was cut to fit between the plates. The raq was bolted to it but I did shim it with 2 nuts. I wanted to make sure I have room to move it latter on. With the raq bolted to the angle iron I tacked it in place, measured bump steer, knocked it loose, did it again.
It took a couple times but I located it where bump and droop had the same offset. It has about as much bump as a stock Pantera right now. I could move the raq to minimize bump as the apex is moved BUT I am going to alter the raq latter to compensate and I’ll be able to get rid of bump and droop pretty much all together.
The goal of this was not just a steering raq mount but a chassis stiffener with a steering raq mount on top. I am really not done with the raq mount because I want to add one more removable piece on top to help support both sides of the raq. When located it was the thickness of 2 nuts off the mount. I am afraid if I only mount it with 2 nut shims I will crack an ear.
At this point I removed the raq and cut the reinforcement steel channel you see in the photos. I was going to use tubing but this worked fine. ******You will need to leave room for you radiator water lines***** It was all welded in place except for the gussets. I didn’t want to pull it out and finish welding until the main stiffeners were welded in as it would warp. Then I cut and welded on gussets.
Nice thing is it is all removable.
The power steering raq was a conversion for MGB which incorporates an electric pump. I did this for other reasons such as keeping my hyd lines close, ease of changing engines, etc. If I had to do it all again I would have chosen a raq first based on pivot distance and second based on configuration.
The other thing with this configuration is I did have to get up and cut out some metal with the plasma cutter to make it fit. In fact I cut much of the old mount out which I think is the real drawback here. It is square metal so it would be easy to put back but is still a major alteration.
There are other things too such as raq ratio, rack travel, etc.
All this was considered in the stiffness of the front end. I am not convinced much of the stiffeners up front are needed but alas I did not want to make anything worse. I was going to put a drop down battery box but the more I looked underneath the more I realized this is ideal area to add bars directly between the upper a-arms!!!! I am still looking at this. I may still add a bracket between this box and the floor.
Keep in mind too that on my car the air duct I welded in is a very rigged wedge welded almost entirely inline with the unibody frame rails which is a natural stiffener too.
Wow, now that I have run off at the mouth so to speak (keyboard) did I answer your questions or just raise more questions?
I have seen many talk down power steering conversions as handling horrible but I can see simply putting any raq in power or not; if not done without taking the geometry for consideration will in deed handle horribly and I think giving power steering a bum rap because of bad installations is short sided.
To start with the bump steer fix for the Pantera really is not a fix but rather it moves the bump steer effect to a different part of the suspension travel. While bump is much improved, droop is worse.
The real problem with bump steer is the pivot point on the Pantera raq itself is too far out our should I say spans too far. The distance between the inside pivot points is too long. Ironically the power steering raq I have is a little too short which creates the same problem. Before I assemble the car I am going to cut the raq and weld it to the right span but what I have done will get me one more step closer to paint which is my goal right now.
This is the Power steering raq, the Pantera Raq, and then the MGB raq:
I went through a lot of things before I actually located the raq. I am re-hashing old info here but it puts it all in place. First thing I did was locate the dimensions of each pivot point. I bolted tubing at each location then welded up the raq to determine the actual dimension reference point. From that I ran loaded suspcalc with the dimensions and played with raq locations. From there that gave me ball park as to where the raq needed to be. I was close right off. Actually if you just shove the raq in the area you see in the photo you will be pretty close.
Fine tuning was a matter of moving the susp up and down and checking bump steer on the wall (garage door). To do so I ran a string down the center of the car to locate center. I clamped lasers on the calipers and did a toe in alignment then found center on the wall (equal dist from center line). This is important because your toe is going to change with steering as well as your bump (Ackerman). From here you can move the raq around to locate the best bump steer.
I looked at a lot of other things on the car. My first thought was to start over with new uprights and start from scratch. The more I started looking into things the more I realized the Pantera suspension is not a bad place to start.
AIA. I wanted more AIA to reduce scrub radius but the pitfall is a compromise on the track. The Pantera upright is not too bad and I changed my mind. I am working on getting the rim further in on the hub. It is one thing where power steering will help.
Ackerman is determined by the raq forward and back. The location of the raq is already pretty good. Not so good for turning into a parking spot at Wal-Mart but better for track or highway driving. Another good reason for a power raq. I have a 76 Cutlass with LOTS of Ackerman! Grandma would love it but it will kill you on the highway if you jerk the wheel (I tell you this from experience!)
Basically most of this stuff will take care of itself so the 2 issues are getting the correct location and getting a raq with the correct distance on the inside pivots.
To start with I cut the side plates. I mounted them with the small screws for alignment then drilled larger holes for the main bolts. I welded on another plate on the frame between the lower rear mount and the sway bar mount. Then I welded tubing in the large bolt holes so I could tighten the bolts without squishing the frame.
A piece of angle iron was cut to fit between the plates. The raq was bolted to it but I did shim it with 2 nuts. I wanted to make sure I have room to move it latter on. With the raq bolted to the angle iron I tacked it in place, measured bump steer, knocked it loose, did it again.
It took a couple times but I located it where bump and droop had the same offset. It has about as much bump as a stock Pantera right now. I could move the raq to minimize bump as the apex is moved BUT I am going to alter the raq latter to compensate and I’ll be able to get rid of bump and droop pretty much all together.
The goal of this was not just a steering raq mount but a chassis stiffener with a steering raq mount on top. I am really not done with the raq mount because I want to add one more removable piece on top to help support both sides of the raq. When located it was the thickness of 2 nuts off the mount. I am afraid if I only mount it with 2 nut shims I will crack an ear.
At this point I removed the raq and cut the reinforcement steel channel you see in the photos. I was going to use tubing but this worked fine. ******You will need to leave room for you radiator water lines***** It was all welded in place except for the gussets. I didn’t want to pull it out and finish welding until the main stiffeners were welded in as it would warp. Then I cut and welded on gussets.
Nice thing is it is all removable.
The power steering raq was a conversion for MGB which incorporates an electric pump. I did this for other reasons such as keeping my hyd lines close, ease of changing engines, etc. If I had to do it all again I would have chosen a raq first based on pivot distance and second based on configuration.
The other thing with this configuration is I did have to get up and cut out some metal with the plasma cutter to make it fit. In fact I cut much of the old mount out which I think is the real drawback here. It is square metal so it would be easy to put back but is still a major alteration.
There are other things too such as raq ratio, rack travel, etc.
All this was considered in the stiffness of the front end. I am not convinced much of the stiffeners up front are needed but alas I did not want to make anything worse. I was going to put a drop down battery box but the more I looked underneath the more I realized this is ideal area to add bars directly between the upper a-arms!!!! I am still looking at this. I may still add a bracket between this box and the floor.
Keep in mind too that on my car the air duct I welded in is a very rigged wedge welded almost entirely inline with the unibody frame rails which is a natural stiffener too.
Wow, now that I have run off at the mouth so to speak (keyboard) did I answer your questions or just raise more questions?
And I got the hood latch working. Works better then the original. I will put some trim around it when I finish it. At least now I can move on.
That answered it great!
I understand what you did a lot better now.
I like the electric powersteering pump idea that should be a pretty clean install.
My car has had previous crash damage in that area and the repair is not very good. I'm going to use some of your mounting ideas to repair and stiffen the area.
Working on Paint Already? WOw you are moving along!
I understand what you did a lot better now.
I like the electric powersteering pump idea that should be a pretty clean install.
My car has had previous crash damage in that area and the repair is not very good. I'm going to use some of your mounting ideas to repair and stiffen the area.
Working on Paint Already? WOw you are moving along!
quote:Originally posted by Pittcrew:
Working on Paint Already? WOw you are moving along!
Dreaming of paint anyway!
If you can find a steering raq with the tubes and hydraulic actuator under the raq it would be less intrusive to the box itself.
Gary
Engine going in again for some final fitment items; finish trans mount, ladder bar. Still need to pull it back out to build Webber intake manifold and get new exhaust header adapters laser cut to fit before making up new exhaust. I could use the old Hall Webber intake with adapters or even cut the intake and stretch/weld it but I have some ideas for a common plenum I want to play with.
Should have ZF side mounts finished up tomorrow:
Should have ZF side mounts finished up tomorrow:
Gary,
That 400 looks to be quite intrusive into the cockpit area...no hump reduction kit in you future I guess.
That 400 looks to be quite intrusive into the cockpit area...no hump reduction kit in you future I guess.
Probably not, although I think the photo makes it look a little worse then it is.
The soda blaster got most of the paint off but did not clean the parts well enough to paint. It left rust and did nothing to the metal. I took some parts back to the sand blasters to clean them up. They were ready yesterday but I was out flying. I picked them up first thing this morning. The air is humid and anywhere sweat drop touched the metal I hit it with a sander to make sure there was no surface rust anywhere. Hung the parts up and etch primed them.
The hood and deck lid are going into storage but I wanted them free of rust and coated first.
The hood and deck lid are going into storage but I wanted them free of rust and coated first.
Got some stuff powder coated while I was at it. Since mock up of most things are done I can begin to move forward. Color is kind of a Grey with a little silver flake. Hard to see in the photo:
Roll bar, Power Steering mount, engine mounts, ZF mounts, ladder bar, ...
Roll bar, Power Steering mount, engine mounts, ZF mounts, ladder bar, ...
After initially stripping, blasting, priming the car many things have been fabricated and welded. Fabrication and mock up is pretty much done. Today I blasted areas which have been welded and disturbed, re-primed them and sprayed the inside channels. Moving to general pre-paint body work. Oh yea!
Very nice work Gary...What kind of cooling fans did you put on your fluidyne radiator?Are they come with mounting kits for the rad?
Serge
Serge
I will look to see which fans they are. It has been a long time since I have given that thought. I believe I got it from PI motorpsorts.
I made my own mounts. In fact the tabs on the side were flat pieces of aluminum while welded on good had no support to keep them from flexing. I welded on additional side supports to keep them from flexing.
In the photo above you see the boxes I welded in for the lower radiator tabs to sit in.
I made my own mounts. In fact the tabs on the side were flat pieces of aluminum while welded on good had no support to keep them from flexing. I welded on additional side supports to keep them from flexing.
In the photo above you see the boxes I welded in for the lower radiator tabs to sit in.
Lookin good gary!
Is this where you are going to post the bodywork progress or are you starting another thread?
Is this where you are going to post the bodywork progress or are you starting another thread?
Thanks Brooke, Probably won't need to. There is not much to post in this process; just a lot of work. Trying to be patient. Details are everything.
