Well Roger should have given you those specs.
12-14 initial is what I would expect to see for initial start up.
Leave the plugs out, hook up the timing light to #1, turn over the engine with the starter (remote starter), turn the distributor until the timing marks line up, bolt the distributor down.
Put in your plugs and start it. Leave the timing light hooked up to see what the computer does with the timing.
It may retard that number to start the engine, then advance it to keep it running as it warms up, then adjust it to the pre-determined idle rpm set in the program.
It should be an engine temp (probably water temp rather than oil temp) vs. engine rpm curve?
This part shouldn't be an issue for you or the engine. The CPU should pick it all up and compensate for everything.
You are close to being good to go?
I agree with Roger. Just get it started then advance it (opposite direction of rotor turn), The idle will raise then it will start running rough. At that point back it off (retard-same direction as rotor) till the idle smooths out again. Then shut it off and start it. If it sounds like it struggling to start, back it off some more. Drive it and put some load on it and see if it "pings" if it does then back it off a bit more, if it does not leave it. Do this in small increments. When you have a good start and no pinning it's good to go. You may have to back it off some when it gets to 100 degrees this summer. I've never used a timing light to see what it's at. All I know it it runs and starts great in any condition and kicks but so that's good for me.
Forgot say. Once you get it started you will have your hands full just getting the cooling filled correctly. These are a bit of a bear to get filled. Once the thermostat opens up you will have to fill some more. You will also have to bleed the air at the radiator. Then top it off at the engine tank. I took the advice of others on the site and jacked up the rear so that the tank was the highest point to get all the air out. When you get the cooling done then refine the timing. Also, a large advance will make snow white runner hotter (temp wise).
quote:Originally posted by 74LQQKR:
Forgot say. Once you get it started you will have your hands full just getting the cooling filled correctly. These are a bit of a bear to get filled. Once the thermostat opens up you will have to fill some more. You will also have to bleed the air at the radiator. Then top it off at the engine tank. I took the advice of others on the site and jacked up the rear so that the tank was the highest point to get all the air out. When you get the cooling done then refine the timing. Also, a large advance will make snow white runner hotter (temp wise).
Don't scare him more. He's already fragile and just hanging onto his sanity barely.
Bleeding the air from the cooling system isn't that difficult.
agree Doug 
SNOW WHITE HAS AWAKENED FROM HER DEEP SLEEP!.
I've been working non stop, just going slow, there's just a lot to do. I got it all pretty much together, and then Ron and Chuck came over and helped me with starting and burping the coolant system.
Took a while to get the thermostat to open.
She runs like when I got her, Chuck mentioned it sounded like it had a miss.
Roger did tell me the idle was misleading because of the injection, and the secret sauce program his buddy had given him for the Haltech box.
The idle is pretty smooth, no lope, decieving because when you hit the go pedal, it rocks it Hard!
I did find the #1 plug to be blacker and dirtier than the others, so maybe I have a low hole, I don't know.
I bought a timing light, I'll use both the light, and "the force", to time the car, and then start looking into the tune, and why my front 4 plugs are blackish, and the rear 4 plugs are golden brown.
My tuner might be able to dial something in or out if it's not mechanical.
In any case, Snow White finally ran again! With new oil, and no shit in the pan, hopefully now it is the engine I thought I bought.
I hope to have the rest of the car buttoned up, and be driving tomorrow hopefully.
I've been working non stop, just going slow, there's just a lot to do. I got it all pretty much together, and then Ron and Chuck came over and helped me with starting and burping the coolant system.
Took a while to get the thermostat to open.
She runs like when I got her, Chuck mentioned it sounded like it had a miss.
Roger did tell me the idle was misleading because of the injection, and the secret sauce program his buddy had given him for the Haltech box.
The idle is pretty smooth, no lope, decieving because when you hit the go pedal, it rocks it Hard!
I did find the #1 plug to be blacker and dirtier than the others, so maybe I have a low hole, I don't know.
I bought a timing light, I'll use both the light, and "the force", to time the car, and then start looking into the tune, and why my front 4 plugs are blackish, and the rear 4 plugs are golden brown.
My tuner might be able to dial something in or out if it's not mechanical.
In any case, Snow White finally ran again! With new oil, and no shit in the pan, hopefully now it is the engine I thought I bought.
I hope to have the rest of the car buttoned up, and be driving tomorrow hopefully.
Thank you! Thank you! (as I take a bow).
This was one HUGE undertaking for me.
Probably a 2 day job for a couple cracker jacks with a lift and all the right tools.
I think Roger is correct, since the injection is set, adjust the timing so the idle's not too high, or low, make sure it fires easily once you've found the sweet spot, and BAM, you're there.
So far, that is how it's working out. The diz took a little turning to get the motor to fire.
I advanced it a couple times until on startup, it actually bucked back momentarily, so I backed off a dgree or 2 and she seems to run and sound like before.
Oil pressure is the same as before, 70-80 cold idle, droppping to 20-30 hot idle pressure.
Going doen the road pressure (2500rpm) hot is aound 70.
Before the oil gets above 180, it shows around 80lbs pressure at higher-than-idle conditions.
Oil pressure-wise, it all looks perfect to me.
Chuck stopped by with his Pantera, as did Ron! MAN, both their cars are nice!
Chuck's car with the 180's sounds insane. Ron's car is BONE STOCK, still sounded awesome.
My plan now is clean up everything, install the interior (seats and firewall), vacum the carpet, get it all buttoned up and get on the road!
This was one HUGE undertaking for me.
Probably a 2 day job for a couple cracker jacks with a lift and all the right tools.
I think Roger is correct, since the injection is set, adjust the timing so the idle's not too high, or low, make sure it fires easily once you've found the sweet spot, and BAM, you're there.
So far, that is how it's working out. The diz took a little turning to get the motor to fire.
I advanced it a couple times until on startup, it actually bucked back momentarily, so I backed off a dgree or 2 and she seems to run and sound like before.
Oil pressure is the same as before, 70-80 cold idle, droppping to 20-30 hot idle pressure.
Going doen the road pressure (2500rpm) hot is aound 70.
Before the oil gets above 180, it shows around 80lbs pressure at higher-than-idle conditions.
Oil pressure-wise, it all looks perfect to me.
Chuck stopped by with his Pantera, as did Ron! MAN, both their cars are nice!
Chuck's car with the 180's sounds insane. Ron's car is BONE STOCK, still sounded awesome.
My plan now is clean up everything, install the interior (seats and firewall), vacum the carpet, get it all buttoned up and get on the road!
Got the interior together today, it was late, but i took Snow White out for a spin, to cycle the thermostat a few times, and just check everything over.
Car ran sweet, no issues, temp gauge banged back between 150 and 180, it all worked perfectly.
I'm going to drive it a few more times, make sure all is well, then install the side covers and air cleaner grill (after I get the replacement element and have both proper fitting air cleaners on both sides), then the beauty covers and grill will go on, and it's on to detailing the car, since she got mighty dirty during this whole affair.
Happy to report the engine is running again, runs and sounds fine, so I'm 95% to being completlely finished.
A couple cosmetic pieces, a nice wash and wax, and she'll be rockin the streets by tomorrow.
Car ran sweet, no issues, temp gauge banged back between 150 and 180, it all worked perfectly.
I'm going to drive it a few more times, make sure all is well, then install the side covers and air cleaner grill (after I get the replacement element and have both proper fitting air cleaners on both sides), then the beauty covers and grill will go on, and it's on to detailing the car, since she got mighty dirty during this whole affair.
Happy to report the engine is running again, runs and sounds fine, so I'm 95% to being completlely finished.
A couple cosmetic pieces, a nice wash and wax, and she'll be rockin the streets by tomorrow.
Hey Mike are you still going to tear the engine and the ZF apart next year for a complete rebuild?
Looks like I had more faith in you than you did.
Looks like I had more faith in you than you did.
As I go along here and own the car, and learn about it, if it has any issues like a low hole or needing anything major, then yes, I will be going through the engine.
The box, we'll see, I may do that too if it's not running perfectly, especially if the engine needs to come out for whatever reason.
I AM very happy to have it back running again though.
The one or 2 other motors I've seen with metal bits in the pan did not continue to run.
The box, we'll see, I may do that too if it's not running perfectly, especially if the engine needs to come out for whatever reason.
I AM very happy to have it back running again though.
The one or 2 other motors I've seen with metal bits in the pan did not continue to run.
To get that enthusiasm going again, Mike, Roger was driving and I was in the passenger seat in heavy traffic on the Laguna Seca access road, during one MOnterey Historics meet. A rent-a-cop stepped out in front of us and held us up for a "dignitary" in a Rolls-Royce.
Roger mumbled something obscene, but as the Roller pulled up next to my open window, it was Jay Leno driving! He stopped and leaned out to look at the white Pantera, and said, "Man, that thing sounds bitchin'! Webers?"
I replied back, "Naw, big-ass EFI and a cam, Jay"
He gave us a thumbs-up as he idled on by. Roger turned to me with a big smile and said, 'How 'bout that! Jay Leno likes my car!"
This was several years before Jay bought his own Pantera (black, also out of Nor-Cal). If you ever see him at Monterey, remind him it still sounds bitchin'!
Roger mumbled something obscene, but as the Roller pulled up next to my open window, it was Jay Leno driving! He stopped and leaned out to look at the white Pantera, and said, "Man, that thing sounds bitchin'! Webers?"
I replied back, "Naw, big-ass EFI and a cam, Jay"
He gave us a thumbs-up as he idled on by. Roger turned to me with a big smile and said, 'How 'bout that! Jay Leno likes my car!"
This was several years before Jay bought his own Pantera (black, also out of Nor-Cal). If you ever see him at Monterey, remind him it still sounds bitchin'!
Actually Jay Leno's Pantera is a very DEEP Dark Blue...Mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd2Unce43wI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd2Unce43wI
quote:Car ran sweet, no issues, temp gauge banged back between 150 and 180, it all worked perfectly.
Hey Mike. I assume Chuck and Ron talked you through bleeding the cooling system, but just to be sure now that you've put a few miles on her, jack up the rear end as high as your floor jack will go and top off your coolant tank. Don't forget to open the bleed screw at top of the radiator (driver's side tank) to bleed out any air bubbles trapped in there too. Then double check and top off the fluid in your coolant tank at the back.
Congrats!
Garth
Don't know if you've got heater shutoff valves besides the regular factory temperature control on the dash, but a bit more air can hide in there too. Open everything and be sure you get that air out also.
There's a couple valves on what I assume are the heater lines. One looks open, one looks closed. I'm not touching either one.
We did bleed and burp the water system thoroughly. It took a while, we had to wait til the thermostat opened for the water to circulate.
I've driven the car a couple times, maybe 10 minutes each time, enough to get the thermostat cycling from 180-150-180-150 and enough to get the oil to 200 each time.
IPSCO was also nice enough to send me what I THINK is probably THE last air filter element for the old style air cleaners my car has.
I used a piece of the other elements to segment the other filter together into a duplicate, perfect fitting filter, so I'm set as far as the air cleaners go. Freshly oiled, ready to filter millions of CFM!
We did bleed and burp the water system thoroughly. It took a while, we had to wait til the thermostat opened for the water to circulate.
I've driven the car a couple times, maybe 10 minutes each time, enough to get the thermostat cycling from 180-150-180-150 and enough to get the oil to 200 each time.
IPSCO was also nice enough to send me what I THINK is probably THE last air filter element for the old style air cleaners my car has.
I used a piece of the other elements to segment the other filter together into a duplicate, perfect fitting filter, so I'm set as far as the air cleaners go. Freshly oiled, ready to filter millions of CFM!
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Here's another pic, it came out as perfect as perfect can get.
The black you see there is rubber body undercoating, which I coated the ends of the cut sections of the filter elements to hopefully keep any stray wire or paper from coming loose.
The black you see there is rubber body undercoating, which I coated the ends of the cut sections of the filter elements to hopefully keep any stray wire or paper from coming loose.
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That's a great story! Thanks for sharing it.
The car is pretty much done, I just need to add the beauty covers behind the rear windows (removed on my car-makes installing easier) and I'm now back to square one.
I'll just pretend this last month or so never happened, I JUST got the car off the trailer, it runs sweet, I'm off to drive and enjoy my new ride!
Insurance kicks in tomorrow, so I'll be able to drive her around seriously tomorrow. I may cheat a little today and put her through another heat cycle, just to be 100% sure the coolant system got filled fully (but I'm pretty sure it's all good, so far everything is doing just what it's supposed to).
The car is pretty much done, I just need to add the beauty covers behind the rear windows (removed on my car-makes installing easier) and I'm now back to square one.
I'll just pretend this last month or so never happened, I JUST got the car off the trailer, it runs sweet, I'm off to drive and enjoy my new ride!
Insurance kicks in tomorrow, so I'll be able to drive her around seriously tomorrow. I may cheat a little today and put her through another heat cycle, just to be 100% sure the coolant system got filled fully (but I'm pretty sure it's all good, so far everything is doing just what it's supposed to).
quote:Originally posted by Bosswrench:
To get that enthusiasm going again, Mike, Roger was driving and I was in the passenger seat in heavy traffic on the Laguna Seca access road, during one MOnterey Historics meet. A rent-a-cop stepped out in front of us and held us up for a "dignitary" in a Rolls-Royce.
Roger mumbled something obscene, but as the Roller pulled up next to my open window, it was Jay Leno driving! He stopped and leaned out to look at the white Pantera, and said, "Man, that thing sounds bitchin'! Webers?"
I replied back, "Naw, big-ass EFI and a cam, Jay"
He gave us a thumbs-up as he idled on by. Roger turned to me with a big smile and said, 'How 'bout that! Jay Leno likes my car!"
This was several years before Jay bought his own Pantera (black, also out of Nor-Cal). If you ever see him at Monterey, remind him it still sounds bitchin'!
To help bleed the cooling system drill a small hole in the thermostat or better yet upgrade to an hp stat. They can make a big difference in the cooling system.
all buttoned up. It doesn't get better looking than this IMO
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and another view
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Thanks again to all that helped, physically and here on this forum for your help in my getting Snow White back running.
I've put another tankful of gas through her, and she seems to be running great!
I'm whole again!
Gonna go take her out for a little jaunt here in a few, just because I can.
I appreciate all the help I received. I got enough help on the things I couldn't do, to then go ahead and finish the car myself, and learn a LOT about my car at the same time.
Snow White would still be in her deep sleep without the help I received, so thanks again to everyone.
I've put another tankful of gas through her, and she seems to be running great!
I'm whole again!
Gonna go take her out for a little jaunt here in a few, just because I can.
I appreciate all the help I received. I got enough help on the things I couldn't do, to then go ahead and finish the car myself, and learn a LOT about my car at the same time.
Snow White would still be in her deep sleep without the help I received, so thanks again to everyone.
I've taken the car on a couple hour/2 hour drives. It runs well enough to drive around, and look good, but it's nowhere near properly tuned.
After buying the car, and the whole repair debacle, I'm broke for a while, so I'm just driving and enjoying my running car for a while.
When I have more money saved, I plan to upgrade to a modern ECU and have Autotrend EFI do his thang to Snow White.
That'll be a little while, because that conversion aint gonna be cheap.
Someday though in the future, Snow White will be running with modern electronics and be propely setup by Dave at Autotrend.
After buying the car, and the whole repair debacle, I'm broke for a while, so I'm just driving and enjoying my running car for a while.
When I have more money saved, I plan to upgrade to a modern ECU and have Autotrend EFI do his thang to Snow White.
That'll be a little while, because that conversion aint gonna be cheap.
Someday though in the future, Snow White will be running with modern electronics and be propely setup by Dave at Autotrend.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
I've taken the car on a couple hour/2 hour drives. It runs well enough to drive around, and look good, but it's nowhere near properly tuned.
After buying the car, and the whole repair debacle, I'm broke for a while, so I'm just driving and enjoying my running car for a while.
When I have more money saved, I plan to upgrade to a modern ECU and have Autotrend EFI do his thang to Snow White.
That'll be a little while, because that conversion aint gonna be cheap.
Someday though in the future, Snow White will be running with modern electronics and be propely setup by Dave at Autotrend.
Bring your bank account.
Yep,
It aint gonna be cheap that's for sure.
It aint gonna be cheap that's for sure.
The best you are going to do is to go to a full electronic distributor with a CPU that handles fuel and ignition and let the CPU do it all.
My SUSPICION with all of that though is that on a cost per gain, it's going to be little gained for a lot spent.
Although a CPU is capable of some ridiculous amount of changes per second, the engine is not. So if you want to think of the CPU making the engine "digital", that is the theory. The problem is the engine is mechanical and is analog.
The CPU is capable of modifying fuel and ignition maps according to minute changes in the environment of the engine, such as air temp, engine temp, engine load, fuel quality, etc., but when it comes down to it the difference in a very fine tuned engine and one that is not is 10 to 12 hp. On a 6 or 7 hundred horsepower engine that is insignificant and in my opinion a waste of time, energy and money.
What you MAY be referring to is simply you expect better idle quality, off idle throttle response and things like that but to a large extent those were determined by the mechanical equipment in the engine such as camshaft, throttle bore size, header tube size and length, fuel octane quality, intake manifold design and intake port design. Those were compromises and ALWAYS will be.
IF that is the case, then you are attempting re-invent the wheel and what you are experiencing is why "we/I" say this is a "race engine" that is streetable. That more than implies compromise, it says flat out there is compromise and if you can fix it, you just made the wheel better?
You need to pull the plugs again and see what they tell you. Take pictures of each one and save them.
I had a 85 930. It was as different from the Pantera as it can be but it had similar issues. Those issues ultimately made me loose favor with it and pass it on to a new caretaker.
When you would start this thing up, it would belch and fart and would blow smoke like a diesel.
Around town in traffic conditions it sounded just like a diesel.
At speed or on a track, well, that is an entirely different story. So in MY view driving a real high performance vehicle (and it doesn't get much higher performance on the street in '85 as a 930) THEY SUCK. They are a toy that you take out on the open road to get away from everything and have to concentrate or focus on driving this beast that the rest of the world, except for the other cars on the road, disappear.
If you don't like that, then the car is just wrong for you and go buy a Mercedes with an automatic transmission and expensive sun glasses?
My SUSPICION with all of that though is that on a cost per gain, it's going to be little gained for a lot spent.
Although a CPU is capable of some ridiculous amount of changes per second, the engine is not. So if you want to think of the CPU making the engine "digital", that is the theory. The problem is the engine is mechanical and is analog.
The CPU is capable of modifying fuel and ignition maps according to minute changes in the environment of the engine, such as air temp, engine temp, engine load, fuel quality, etc., but when it comes down to it the difference in a very fine tuned engine and one that is not is 10 to 12 hp. On a 6 or 7 hundred horsepower engine that is insignificant and in my opinion a waste of time, energy and money.
What you MAY be referring to is simply you expect better idle quality, off idle throttle response and things like that but to a large extent those were determined by the mechanical equipment in the engine such as camshaft, throttle bore size, header tube size and length, fuel octane quality, intake manifold design and intake port design. Those were compromises and ALWAYS will be.
IF that is the case, then you are attempting re-invent the wheel and what you are experiencing is why "we/I" say this is a "race engine" that is streetable. That more than implies compromise, it says flat out there is compromise and if you can fix it, you just made the wheel better?
You need to pull the plugs again and see what they tell you. Take pictures of each one and save them.
I had a 85 930. It was as different from the Pantera as it can be but it had similar issues. Those issues ultimately made me loose favor with it and pass it on to a new caretaker.
When you would start this thing up, it would belch and fart and would blow smoke like a diesel.
Around town in traffic conditions it sounded just like a diesel.
At speed or on a track, well, that is an entirely different story. So in MY view driving a real high performance vehicle (and it doesn't get much higher performance on the street in '85 as a 930) THEY SUCK. They are a toy that you take out on the open road to get away from everything and have to concentrate or focus on driving this beast that the rest of the world, except for the other cars on the road, disappear.
If you don't like that, then the car is just wrong for you and go buy a Mercedes with an automatic transmission and expensive sun glasses?
I had a self learning EFI ECU system on my Pantera and hated it.... I am running a Prosystems carb and everything is happier not to mention I was able to put a real cam back in.
Presently, the car runs well. I really have no complaints, sticky idle that requires a throttle blip to drop fully down, blows some black smoke on startup, and I know it's running rich because it leaves carbon all over the back of the car.
Plug colors were all different, #1 caked, the other front 3 were black, the rear 4 were golden brown (when I removed them originally, they've since been replaced) and I plan to try and read them after a few more tanks of gas. Also, the old air cleaners were ill fitting, which may have caused some of this issue.
Most of my driving is tame street driving, so it could just be my injection, it being hard to get all 8 butteerflies to open and close exactly when they are BARELY being opened.
On song, any throttle above easy cruising and the motor sounds and runs like a champ.
I'm just thinking about down the road, when this Haltech (that came with floppy discs) konks out, I'm going to need to upgrade, and I might as well do it right.
Again though, the car's running fine now, I'm broke so I can't do anything for a good while anyways, so this is all just discussion about what I might switch to when the time comes.
Like you said, it's a race engine, and I think for being so "racy" it actually is running pretty good for the street. I can hop in and go anywhere now, it all seems to run solid, coolant temps, oil temps and pressure are good, starts every time, it goes VROOOOM! every time I hit the gas pedal, I'm happy!
Plug colors were all different, #1 caked, the other front 3 were black, the rear 4 were golden brown (when I removed them originally, they've since been replaced) and I plan to try and read them after a few more tanks of gas. Also, the old air cleaners were ill fitting, which may have caused some of this issue.
Most of my driving is tame street driving, so it could just be my injection, it being hard to get all 8 butteerflies to open and close exactly when they are BARELY being opened.
On song, any throttle above easy cruising and the motor sounds and runs like a champ.
I'm just thinking about down the road, when this Haltech (that came with floppy discs) konks out, I'm going to need to upgrade, and I might as well do it right.
Again though, the car's running fine now, I'm broke so I can't do anything for a good while anyways, so this is all just discussion about what I might switch to when the time comes.
Like you said, it's a race engine, and I think for being so "racy" it actually is running pretty good for the street. I can hop in and go anywhere now, it all seems to run solid, coolant temps, oil temps and pressure are good, starts every time, it goes VROOOOM! every time I hit the gas pedal, I'm happy!
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
The best you are going to do is to go to a full electronic distributor with a CPU that handles fuel and ignition and let the CPU do it all.
My SUSPICION with all of that though is that on a cost per gain, it's going to be little gained for a lot spent.
Although a CPU is capable of some ridiculous amount of changes per second, the engine is not. So if you want to think of the CPU making the engine "digital", that is the theory. The problem is the engine is mechanical and is analog.
The CPU is capable of modifying fuel and ignition maps according to minute changes in the environment of the engine, such as air temp, engine temp, engine load, fuel quality, etc., but when it comes down to it the difference in a very fine tuned engine and one that is not is 10 to 12 hp. On a 6 or 7 hundred horsepower engine that is insignificant and in my opinion a waste of time, energy and money.
What you MAY be referring to is simply you expect better idle quality, off idle throttle response and things like that but to a large extent those were determined by the mechanical equipment in the engine such as camshaft, throttle bore size, header tube size and length, fuel octane quality, intake manifold design and intake port design. Those were compromises and ALWAYS will be.
IF that is the case, then you are attempting re-invent the wheel and what you are experiencing is why "we/I" say this is a "race engine" that is streetable. That more than implies compromise, it says flat out there is compromise and if you can fix it, you just made the wheel better?
You need to pull the plugs again and see what they tell you. Take pictures of each one and save them.
I had a 85 930. It was as different from the Pantera as it can be but it had similar issues. Those issues ultimately made me loose favor with it and pass it on to a new caretaker.
When you would start this thing up, it would belch and fart and would blow smoke like a diesel.
Around town in traffic conditions it sounded just like a diesel.
At speed or on a track, well, that is an entirely different story. So in MY view driving a real high performance vehicle (and it doesn't get much higher performance on the street in '85 as a 930) THEY SUCK. They are a toy that you take out on the open road to get away from everything and have to concentrate or focus on driving this beast that the rest of the world, except for the other cars on the road, disappear.
If you don't like that, then the car is just wrong for you and go buy a Mercedes with an automatic transmission and expensive sun glasses?
The Webers "TEND" to darken the plugs at idle and it is difficult to lean the ratio at idle without making it backfire through the exhaust.
In the early days I would blow muffler baffles out as a result.
I really am convinced that it is a function of an individual runner manifold that actually has all of the butterflies closed and you are really ideling on the idle screw adjustment.
The changes are so small at idle, just the differences in machining tolerances on items like the pitch of the threads changes mixture volume and sometimes mixture strength.
Just something that you need to come to a conclusion on after you are completely successful at it or only partially successful.
Read your plugs. They will tell you what is going on now and if you are really good will show you the different levels you went through such as idle, WOT, and sometimes you can read multiple runs.
In the early days I would blow muffler baffles out as a result.
I really am convinced that it is a function of an individual runner manifold that actually has all of the butterflies closed and you are really ideling on the idle screw adjustment.
The changes are so small at idle, just the differences in machining tolerances on items like the pitch of the threads changes mixture volume and sometimes mixture strength.
Just something that you need to come to a conclusion on after you are completely successful at it or only partially successful.
Read your plugs. They will tell you what is going on now and if you are really good will show you the different levels you went through such as idle, WOT, and sometimes you can read multiple runs.
Reading old plugs is a waste of time and for the most part useless. You can put a new set in, run it hard, shut it off and read them provide you know what you are looking for.
If you want to know what's going on just install a wideband and be done with it. I installed a wideband in every toy I've owned in the last 7 or 8 years. I have an analog guage in my Pantera and a ditgital one on my Landspeed bike right now.
If you want to know what's going on just install a wideband and be done with it. I installed a wideband in every toy I've owned in the last 7 or 8 years. I have an analog guage in my Pantera and a ditgital one on my Landspeed bike right now.
quote:Originally posted by 8pack:
Reading old plugs is a waste of time and for the most part useless. You can put a new set in, run it hard, shut it off and read them provide you know what you are looking for.
If you want to know what's going on just install a wideband and be done with it. I installed a wideband in every toy I've owned in the last 7 or 8 years. I have an analog guage in my Pantera and a ditgital one on my Landspeed bike right now.
The issue with a setup like this where there is variation from cylinder to cylinder with air/fuel ratio (black plugs in the forward cylinders, brown in the rear) is that to get it right and use the CPU it needs an oxygen sensor on each exhaust tube. If not, the location in the header collector is going to be the "average" of the cylinders.
You can play forever and not get the balance right then. So one oxygen sensor doesn't fix anything.
An EGT system is really the only way to go on a system like that (one probe pre cyl). The sad part is at the end of the day it's going to be a bunch of money and slow than a single 4 barrel:-(
Unfortunately, I think what I have is a setup designed for racing, and idling and street driveability really isn't it's forte'. Getting all 8 butterflies to be exact, heat expansion, it's probably going to be nearly impossible to dial in to perfection without the ability to adjust each cylinder, meaning IAT sensors and EGT sensors on each hole like on aircraft.
Maybe I'm wrong, the car does run very well presently as far as I'm concerned, but I KNOW it's running very rich.
I haven't checked the plugs since installing new ones yet, but the carbon coating left on the back of the car after drives, the black poof of smoke on startup, the smell of fuel, and a friend who followed me one day told me he could smell my car running pig rich all tells me that even though the car seems to be running fine, the tune is WAY off from being in check.
I know the car spent time on track, so it's probably tuned to run well wide open (in fact, it runs awesome when pushed hard). I believe it's been run in this configuration for quite some time, so I'm not too worried about anything, other than something else konking out.
Unfortunately the solution is upgrading to newer modern electronics and having an expert go through and tune the car, which is something i'm not able to do presently.
SO, for now, I'm just going to drive it occasionally, enjoy that it runs at all, and save my money and decide what to do at a later date when I have options.
Maybe I'm wrong, the car does run very well presently as far as I'm concerned, but I KNOW it's running very rich.
I haven't checked the plugs since installing new ones yet, but the carbon coating left on the back of the car after drives, the black poof of smoke on startup, the smell of fuel, and a friend who followed me one day told me he could smell my car running pig rich all tells me that even though the car seems to be running fine, the tune is WAY off from being in check.
I know the car spent time on track, so it's probably tuned to run well wide open (in fact, it runs awesome when pushed hard). I believe it's been run in this configuration for quite some time, so I'm not too worried about anything, other than something else konking out.
Unfortunately the solution is upgrading to newer modern electronics and having an expert go through and tune the car, which is something i'm not able to do presently.
SO, for now, I'm just going to drive it occasionally, enjoy that it runs at all, and save my money and decide what to do at a later date when I have options.
Sounds like a well thought out plan to me.
Honestly, I should have done more homework and research before buying the car.
The car IS insanely cool though, and a rocketship. Violently fast, and handles as good as anything I've driven, I'm not saying I'm unhappy with what I bought, but I didn't realize how exotic all the stuff was on the engine.
The good thing is I got it all back and running, I'm going tonight to our town's "friday Night Cruise" (all the "car guys" meet up at a big parking lot and hang out til about 11 or so), all kinds of cars, it's an OK scene, and I KNOW that most of them have never seen a Pantera, so it'll be fun.
I WOULD like to be able to tune my car a little closer to stoich though, but the Haltech unit I have uses floppy discs (at least that's where the info for the tune is) because the car DOES run REALLY rich.
The car IS insanely cool though, and a rocketship. Violently fast, and handles as good as anything I've driven, I'm not saying I'm unhappy with what I bought, but I didn't realize how exotic all the stuff was on the engine.
The good thing is I got it all back and running, I'm going tonight to our town's "friday Night Cruise" (all the "car guys" meet up at a big parking lot and hang out til about 11 or so), all kinds of cars, it's an OK scene, and I KNOW that most of them have never seen a Pantera, so it'll be fun.
I WOULD like to be able to tune my car a little closer to stoich though, but the Haltech unit I have uses floppy discs (at least that's where the info for the tune is) because the car DOES run REALLY rich.
Just out of curiosity, if I removed the air cleaners and ran the car with the open stacks, would that help make it run a little leaner?
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Just out of curiosity, if I removed the air cleaners and ran the car with the open stacks, would that help make it run a little leaner?
Not enough to make a difference and may cause airflow problems. I wouldn't do it.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Just out of curiosity, if I removed the air cleaners and ran the car with the open stacks, would that help make it run a little leaner?
Yes. It won't hurt but it is impossible to tell the effect exactly until you do it.
You should pick up some noticeable horsepower.
You wouldn't want that to happen now would you?
Open stack Webers are a lot better than filtered. The filters interfere with the ram effect.
You can also do a bit of tuning with them by varying the length of the stack and the opening diameter of the stack.
The filters also muffle the engine a bit as well. Open stacks give you more of a "church organ" effect.
You can hear them on a car in the distance and have an interesting change on the Doppler Effect.
Open stacks will read on the plugs.
Hello Mike; Prior to notifying my law firm of "Dowe Cheatem Andhow" I must ask your REMOVE the verbiage "Rocketship" from your above post as "Rocketship" is MY Licensed & Trademarked name!!!...Regards Mark A President & CEO of "Rocketship Enterprises Inc"quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Honestly, I should have done more homework and research before buying the car.
The car IS insanely cool though, and a rocketship. Violently fast, and handles as good as anything I've driven, I'm not saying I'm unhappy with what I bought, but I didn't realize how exotic all the stuff was on the engine.
The good thing is I got it all back and running, I'm going tonight to our town's "friday Night Cruise" (all the "car guys" meet up at a big parking lot and hang out til about 11 or so), all kinds of cars, it's an OK scene, and I KNOW that most of them have never seen a Pantera, so it'll be fun.
I WOULD like to be able to tune my car a little closer to stoich though, but the Haltech unit I have uses floppy discs (at least that's where the info for the tune is) because the car DOES run REALLY rich.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Honestly, I should have done more homework and research before buying the car.
...but I didn't realize how exotic all the stuff was on the engine.
...I WOULD like to be able to...
Your situation reminds me of a peeve I had with my customers when we decide to modify a known established design. While the design is better, the problem will arise when another person is required to perform repairs if it is not well documented.
Mike,
I feel for you every time I read this thread, please don't let this setback mar you Pantera ownership experience.
There's a lot of talk about Webers, but you have an 8 stack EFI system, which is infinitely more tuneable than Webers IMO. Haltech is also a great brand and the older versions are relatively easy to tune. There are also a number of Pantera owners who know their way around tuning it. You can download all the software and manuals you need from Haltech's website and may just need a laptop running the older Windoze 98/2000. Floppy disks can be transferred to a USB or like pretty cheaply, but you may not even need it.
The difference in the plugs is likely down to synchronzation of the butterflies and a good synchrometer will help.
One alternative to really enjoy the car for now is to get yourself a Holley 4 barrel and switch out until you have time/money to address the EFI challenges.
Good luck and please stay with it, you will be rewarded eventually.
Julian
I feel for you every time I read this thread, please don't let this setback mar you Pantera ownership experience.
There's a lot of talk about Webers, but you have an 8 stack EFI system, which is infinitely more tuneable than Webers IMO. Haltech is also a great brand and the older versions are relatively easy to tune. There are also a number of Pantera owners who know their way around tuning it. You can download all the software and manuals you need from Haltech's website and may just need a laptop running the older Windoze 98/2000. Floppy disks can be transferred to a USB or like pretty cheaply, but you may not even need it.
The difference in the plugs is likely down to synchronzation of the butterflies and a good synchrometer will help.
One alternative to really enjoy the car for now is to get yourself a Holley 4 barrel and switch out until you have time/money to address the EFI challenges.
Good luck and please stay with it, you will be rewarded eventually.
Julian
Just drive and enjoy it! There are no EFI challenges with your car. So it runs a little rich. I haven't seen a Pantera with a 351C that doesn't run rich. Drive it and enjoy it!
Oh, and don't drive it around without the air cleaners!!!! You'll learn that air racing over the Pantera and the opening at the front of the decklid over the engine compartment creates a vacuum effect and will suck rocks and gravel right off the road and up into your engine compartment! I've never had an offroad excursion in my car, but am always amazed at the gravel, rocks and miscellaneous crap I find atop my frame rails, as well as all the crap that ends up on top of my engine! I just blew it all off with compressed air before removing my carb and intake manifold to look for that carb stud that got sucked down into the engine - and believe me, you don't want that to happen! If you thought finding the remnants of a roller rocker bearing seizing your oil pump was frustrating and costly, try swallowing something (a bolt, nut, stone, acorn, etc.) down one of the throttle bodies into the engine! Now you're talking expensive and frustrating!
Just sayin...
Oh, and don't drive it around without the air cleaners!!!! You'll learn that air racing over the Pantera and the opening at the front of the decklid over the engine compartment creates a vacuum effect and will suck rocks and gravel right off the road and up into your engine compartment! I've never had an offroad excursion in my car, but am always amazed at the gravel, rocks and miscellaneous crap I find atop my frame rails, as well as all the crap that ends up on top of my engine! I just blew it all off with compressed air before removing my carb and intake manifold to look for that carb stud that got sucked down into the engine - and believe me, you don't want that to happen! If you thought finding the remnants of a roller rocker bearing seizing your oil pump was frustrating and costly, try swallowing something (a bolt, nut, stone, acorn, etc.) down one of the throttle bodies into the engine! Now you're talking expensive and frustrating!
Just sayin...
quote:Originally posted by Joules:
Mike,
I feel for you every time I read this thread, please don't let this setback mar you Pantera ownership experience.
There's a lot of talk about Webers, but you have an 8 stack EFI system, which is infinitely more tuneable than Webers IMO. Haltech is also a great brand and the older versions are relatively easy to tune. There are also a number of Pantera owners who know their way around tuning it. You can download all the software and manuals you need from Haltech's website and may just need a laptop running the older Windoze 98/2000. Floppy disks can be transferred to a USB or like pretty cheaply, but you may not even need it.
The difference in the plugs is likely down to synchronzation of the butterflies and a good synchrometer will help.
One alternative to really enjoy the car for now is to get yourself a Holley 4 barrel and switch out until you have time/money to address the EFI challenges.
Good luck and please stay with it, you will be rewarded eventually.
Julian
EFI and Weber 48IDA carbs on individual runner intake manifolds react EXACTLY the same at idle.
Air filters are restrictive and effect the air/fuel ratios.
Torque can be tuned by changing the length and diameters of the velocity stacks.
Since air filters are restrictive there is free horsepower and torque to be gained AT ALL RPM by running without them.
A/F ratios to the cylinder are artificially enriched by running through an air filter.
It should be noted that even screens have this effect but to a lesser degree.
What fuel injection is doing is LIMITING but not totally eliminating blow back through the carbs, i.e., fuel reversion. 2) allowing the CPU to vary the a/f ratio according to the program that YOU write into it, i.e., read off of a script, that tells the computer to maintain a particular a/f ratio under particular operating conditions.
With ONE oxygen sensor it will read the average a/f at the location of that sensor.
In order to tailor that to each individual cylinder, you need a sensor for each cylinder located within a certain distance from the exhaust valve.
That is the advantage of a "digital" device.
Weber carbs react exactly the same as EFI on individual runners except they are subject to reversion, because they maintain emulsified fuel held in suspension in the venturi.
That mixture is pushed back out of the carb since it has no where else to go. This is created by the power pulse of the camshaft overlap.
You need to reduce that overlap on a Cleveland to about 26 to 28 degrees to make the reversion a non-entity.
The carbs of course can not vary their jetting and a/f ratio while running like EFI CAN. Therefore it is simply an analog system.
The similarities are that even though an EFI system controlled by a central CPU PROMISES to vary the a/f ratio to perfect stoichiometric at idle, the engine does not have that capability of idling on it with an IR manifold. It can only do that with a common plenum manifold.
You see with your car what the CPU is capable of at idle. The fact is that it is going to be heavy at idle JUST LIKE the Webers are. I doubt that it is giving you 14.7:1? Sounds like closer to 13:1 at idle? It probably needs to do that to keep the engine running at idle?
The difference between the carbs and the EFI at start up and idle, is that with EFI you don't have to pump the gas to start a cold car and you do not have to tailor the accelerator pumps like on the carbs.
Does the EFI make more power over 3,000 rpm? Not really. Does it make more power under 3,000? No. It just cost more to set it up so that the arm chair engineers can fool themselves into thinking that they don't have to get their hands dirty and they can fix it with a few strokes of the keyboard, more importantly, and THAT THEY THINK THAT ACTUALLY MAKES THEM KNOW SOMETHING!
To each his own. "One" still needs to sweat a little and know how to work the system. You (you in general, not you specifically) can't be a theoretical physicist. You have to take off the Gucci loafers, know how to at least turn a screw driver and get more than a little dirty.
Having said that, these systems take MUCH more than a little patience and take MUCH longer on the learning curve to understand them. Doesn't matter EFI or Webers. Both are a major PITA. Very similar characteristics. Very Similar results. You can't sit down for weeks from working with them.
Me tacky? Maybe? I leave the Grey Poupon home with James the Butler. He never liked me anyway? I don't have Gucchi's either. I got a deal from this guy on the street for Googee's. They look just like them and they were cheap!
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quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Since air filters are restrictive there is free horsepower and torque to be gained AT ALL RPM by running without them.
It should be noted that even screens have this effect but to a lesser degree.
There are a TON of engines that make more power with an air filter on vs off. It helps to straighten the airflow and removes turbulance.
As for the screen statement. I know for a fact that air filters are way better than screens. Screens are super restrictive due to the cross sectional area of the screen wire.
I've been driving the car around, and it really is running nicely, especially for the street.
Ran it wide open though half of fourth today, MAN this car has a lot of power! The power is violent in 1st and 2nd, 3rd it just pulls so hard my eyes get sucked into the back of my head.
Stayed into it for a bit after shifting to 4th, but by that time I was going REALLY fast, so I backed off, but WOW!
Aside from running a little rich, I think the car runs pretty good. Good enough for me right now.
I'm just gonna leave things alone, and just enjoy the car, save up for my next powermove.
Ran it wide open though half of fourth today, MAN this car has a lot of power! The power is violent in 1st and 2nd, 3rd it just pulls so hard my eyes get sucked into the back of my head.
Stayed into it for a bit after shifting to 4th, but by that time I was going REALLY fast, so I backed off, but WOW!
Aside from running a little rich, I think the car runs pretty good. Good enough for me right now.
I'm just gonna leave things alone, and just enjoy the car, save up for my next powermove.
Hello Mike; ALWAYS Remember...There is a point of diminishing returns!quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
I've been driving the car around, and it really is running nicely, especially for the street.
Ran it wide open though half of fourth today, MAN this car has a lot of power! The power is violent in 1st and 2nd, 3rd it just pulls so hard my eyes get sucked into the back of my head.
Stayed into it for a bit after shifting to 4th, but by that time I was going REALLY fast, so I backed off, but WOW!
Aside from running a little rich, I think the car runs pretty good. Good enough for me right now.
I'm just gonna leave things alone, and just enjoy the car, save up for my next powermove.
It was been constantly & consistently proven to myself from various tracking of my DeTomaso Pantera, that useable horsepower will beat massive horsepower 99.9999999999999% of the time.
Being familiar & confident with the powertrain & intimately knowing it's parameters & extremes, will give FASTER lap times than a similar car with MORE horsepower than the driver is capable of utilizing/applying...Mark
Thanks,
That's why I'm taking thing slowly with this car.
I've only floored it a few times, and only on long straights.
It'll be a while before I track the car.
I want to ensure the engine and brakes, and gearbox for that natter, are all in tip-top shape before I do a track day.
I'm very used to driving very high powered cars on the track, been bitten by the "too much power" bug, I know to respect this car and not try anything beyond my, or my car's capabilities.
That's why I'm taking thing slowly with this car.
I've only floored it a few times, and only on long straights.
It'll be a while before I track the car.
I want to ensure the engine and brakes, and gearbox for that natter, are all in tip-top shape before I do a track day.
I'm very used to driving very high powered cars on the track, been bitten by the "too much power" bug, I know to respect this car and not try anything beyond my, or my car's capabilities.
quote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:Hello Mike; ALWAYS Remember...There is a point of diminishing returns!quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
I've been driving the car around, and it really is running nicely, especially for the street.
Ran it wide open though half of fourth today, MAN this car has a lot of power! The power is violent in 1st and 2nd, 3rd it just pulls so hard my eyes get sucked into the back of my head.
Stayed into it for a bit after shifting to 4th, but by that time I was going REALLY fast, so I backed off, but WOW!
Aside from running a little rich, I think the car runs pretty good. Good enough for me right now.
I'm just gonna leave things alone, and just enjoy the car, save up for my next powermove.
It was been constantly & consistently proven to myself from various tracking of my DeTomaso Pantera, that useable horsepower will beat massive horsepower 99.9999999999999% of the time.
Being familiar & confident with the powertrain & intimately knowing it's parameters & extremes, will give FASTER lap times than a similar car with MORE horsepower than the driver is capable of utilizing/applying...Mark
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
The power is violent in 1st and 2nd, 3rd it just pulls so hard my eyes get sucked into the back of my head.
Ahh! Two things the doctors couldn't fix, the eyes sucked into the back of my head and a prefrontal lobotomy would be useless in my case. These two factors make me instantaneously identifiable.
They just prove there is something VERY seriously wrong with me. I just go with it.
I was looking through the thread but I couldn't find your engine specs. Is it a solid roller 408 with EFI webers? How big is the cam and what is the compression ratio? Ect ect.
here's a pic of the cam sheet I think
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