Clutch adjustment?

Peter,

The travel appears to be 8mm, including the free play, as measured in the attached pic.

FWIW, the previously posted pic of the effort reduction kit (the one that JFB annotated) is mine. I have 38,000 miles on that kit with no problems.

John

8mm !

that sure makes what I thought wrong

Lets just stop for a minute and make a reality check. There must be something fundamentally wrong with one or some of those parts you put together. There must be a mis-match somewhere! Did you get the Clutch parts as a kit or did you combine them from various vendors etc? It is not rocket scientism so there must be something that is not right somewhere like the throw out bearing being unsuitable for the pressure plate or what do I know.....

The fact that you tell me you cant get a feeler gauge between clutch and flywheel when the clutch is activated is weird. What if you disconnect the slave completely and slide a piece of pipe or a large socket with an extender over the arm to activate the clutch this way? just to eliminate the clutch/pressure plate/throw out bearing being the trouble.

If you provide some photos of your slave and linkage as well as the clutch parts etc. perhaps its possible to spot the issues?

quote:

Originally posted by goodroc:..
The fact that you tell me you cant get a feeler gauge between clutch and flywheel when the clutch is activated is weird. What if you disconnect the slave completely and slide a piece of pipe or a large socket with an extender over the arm to activate the clutch this way?...

And while using the cheater to stroke the clutch if you could measure the travel needed to "just touch" to when "feelers go"

Poor Peter, getting so many answers going in all directions.

Let's start with the root cause here, and then when solved, there may be other problems. Problem #1 here is lack of slave movement, not the clutch itself (could be a problem also)

12-13 mm at the slave is not enough, that has to be sorted first. The effort reduction kit (which I would throw away immediately but which works for some) doesn't help, because it of course presses less fluid for the same amount of pedal stroke. So even if all works perfectly, the room for error on adjusting the clutch is less.
The obvious thing is that if you have the right master and slave and no bubbles and all adjusted right, you have more than 12-13 mm movement at slave. Do you have an OEM master, or something cheap or fancy? I recommend a master from Roland in Germany, he has the orig size ones built in Italy, a little more expensive, works perfectly.

"Is your MC the original ~19mm BORE? with the slave bore of ~25mm? vendors do sell a long stroke slave which has a smaller bore. (smaller bore gives MORE stroke from the same MC)". But please, don't keep your effort reduction kit and invest in a long throw slave, because then you defeated the purpose of the effort reduction kit. You can't cheat physics, less effort at the pedal means less movement of the slave. Pure physics.

Here's what I would do. I would spend some money on this. Why? Because not having proper clutch disengagement can quickly ruin your ZF synchros, and then we're talking $$$. I would buy new OEM master and slave [Apologies Peter, re-reading the entire thread, I see now that you have a good master and slave from Roland], (OEM, no effort reduction kit and no long throw slave), bleed until I got proper slave travel. Only when that is succesful would I move to check the clutch. If at that point you can't adjust the clutch properly (see how in my 4 step instruction posted earlier in this thread), then you may need a new clutch. But fix the slave throw issue first.

(After searching a bit on this forum I found that a standard slave should have 5/8"=16mm and a long throw should have 3/4"=19mm. This will of course vary, but it confirms that your 12-13 mm is not as it should be)

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:....
(After searching a bit on this forum I found that a standard slave should have 5/8"=16mm and a long throw should have 3/4"=19mm. This will of course vary, but it confirms that your 12-13 mm is not as it should be)

Be sure that information was NOT something I posted, but from another source

The adjustment really is simple. You put a block on the clutch pedal holding it to max travel, then you turn the adjustment screw on the slave cylinder until you get the clearance specified between the disc and plate.

There was some discussion in the past of a slave cylinder that looked like the Pantera version but was from another application. I don't remember the specifics on that at the moment...and there is the stainless part from Pantera's East that has a different bore.

After adjusting for the clearance needed, when you release the clutch pedal, IF you don't get full lock up, replace the slave cylinder.

This is not rocket science.


I've never been to England so if I came and did this for you I'm very likely to just get distracted by all the typical tourist traps.

"The adjustment really is simple. You put a block on the clutch pedal holding it to max travel, then you turn the adjustment screw on the slave cylinder until you get the clearance specified between the disc and plate." Won't work...

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
"The adjustment really is simple. You put a block on the clutch pedal holding it to max travel, then you turn the adjustment screw on the slave cylinder until you get the clearance specified between the disc and plate." Won't work...

...in your world, where ever that might be? Mars?

PanteraDoug, I agree we're on different planets. Who is on what planet is the question.

With all due respect, I just wish you would only weigh in, when what you have to say actually helps the fellow Pantera owner who posed the original question...

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
PanteraDoug, I agree we're on different planets. Who is on what planet is the question.

With all due respect, I just wish you would only weigh in, when what you have to say actually helps the fellow Pantera owner who posed the original question...

As determined by you?

FWIW, I have OEM master and slave, I have adjusted as per the 4 steps I posted early in this thread, and I have just measured luring the wife to go with me in the cold garage to press the pedal. The slave moves 17mm.
Until you have 16-17mm, you don't have to look at the clutch.

Effort reduction kits, I don't see the need, and they do reduce slave travel. Has anybody here in this forum ever had a Pantera with a proper Pantera clutch, and felt that they needed to reduce the effort. I don't think my clutch pedal is hard, and can drive it for hours in traffic with no issue, and I'm no bodybuilder at all (no comments please). And the math is simple, if the effort reduction kit results in requiring X% less effort, the slave will move X% less. It's that simple. If it wasn't you could build a perpetual motion machine...

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Poor Peter, getting so many answers going in all directions.

And only to make it worse then you and PanteraDoug managed to turn the thread into your own little Battlefield

quote:

Originally posted by goodroc:

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Poor Peter, getting so many answers going in all directions.

And only to make it worse then you and PanteraDoug managed to turn the thread into your own little Battlefield

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
FWIW, I have OEM master and slave ... The slave moves 17mm.

Effort reduction kits, I don't see the need, and they do reduce slave travel... And the math is simple, if the effort reduction kit results in requiring X% less effort, the slave will move X% less. It's that simple....

Thanks for measuring and posting your slave stroke.

as for the effort reduction, the way it provides "advantage" is to reduce the slave stroke versus pedal when fully depressed. to make up for the loss of slave stroke you mention, the initial applying the clutch in fact moves the slave MORE for the first 30mm or so of pedal, before it begins the LESS slave stroke advantage.

as I have state earlier, if that b/c angle is too shallow, the toggle will "lockup" or worse, flip and go backwards. If the angle is made to great, you lose the "fast take up" and now the pedal travel will not stroke the slave its full travel because not bottoming out the MC

Re-reading the thread, some talk about not having too thick carpet etc. The pedal should not even touch the carpet, it should bottom out against the master cylinder internal stop, not the carpet and not the bracket the pedal is supported in (and not any parts of the effort reduction kit if so equipped). There should be at least ½" between pedal and carpet when the pedal hits the internal stop in the master cylinder

Thanks to all for your input, I didn't want lads to have "words" or bandy their handbags.

I am as you can imagine extremely cheesed of with the situation, and apologies for prolonging the agony.

Today I removed the ERKit and fitted the rod that came with the new master from Roland Jaeckel.

With this I adjusted the pedal to be about half an inch higher than the brake pedal, bled the system, and measured slave cylinder movement at 13mm (again).

But after the good lady had returned to the kitchen I did note that the first one and a half inches of pedal travel are a little soft before becoming solid.

Tomorrow I shall jack up the front a little and bleed again. then check if 16mm is possible using a long tube over the actuating arm.

By the way the pedal when fully depressed is not near the carpet.

Episode 149 commences tomorrow evening UK time.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Fenlon:
Thanks to all for your input, I didn't want lads to have "words" or bandy their handbags.

Episode 149 commences tomorrow evening UK time.

Do you mean like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce2jEDfPwG8

Personally I hate it when my panty hose rides up. It pulls on my pubies?

These girls got in some good shots too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqQQjH2Tctg

Bitches.

brilliant, life's far too short…………

Just wait till I get this clutch to work.

But character building I keep telling myself after severe fits of bloody absolute depression.
When getting nowhere.

Peter, are you near any of our Pantera friends in the UK?
Roger Brotton's shop can surely help you: I'm sure you'll get it right in the end, despite our help, but Roger has seen and done it all, and can maybe save you some time/iterations, either by advising you, or by having your car in his garage?

Better than getting depressed...

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Peter, are you near any of our Pantera friends in the UK?
Roger Brotton's shop can surely help you: I'm sure you'll get it right in the end, despite our help, but Roger has seen and done it all, and can maybe save you some time/iterations, either by advising you, or by having your car in his garage?



Better than getting depressed...

I would not want to send the car to Mr Brottons shop when I can do the same as he can.

Being able to pay for mechanical work is out of the question when it is a hydraulic problem,. and I wouldn't think I could afford to pay for such services.

Today I have put a pry bar on the clutch actuating arm and when giving it the old heave ho the clutch releases fine enough to get a ten though feeler between the flywheel and plate.

I have after all my other problems a bleed problem. and I will sort it especially with the help of more experienced owners, NEVER NEVER give up, one day our Billy!!!!!!

Good news at last.

after bleeding the system again then screwing the slave cyl rod to the rear of the slave cylinder.

I now get a 10 thou feeler in between the flywheel and clutch driven plate, with 13mm of slave cyl travel!!!

I can easily select gears again with ease.

I don't think I have any clearance between the TOB and the clutch arms, and have asked now for a longer throw slave from Roland Jaekel.

I hope this solves the problem.

The archangel Gabriel flew low over the house last night, when I get the new slave I hope she can land for a cup of tea.!!

Great to hear Peter

Be aware that the long throw slave will negate any effort reduction by the ERK, but I guess you don't care about that right now, you just want a functioning clutch

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Fenlon:
... 13mm of slave cyl travel!!!

quote:

Originally posted by jb1490:
The travel appears to be 8mm,

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
FWIW, I have OEM master and slave…The slave moves 17mm.

just posting as a summary as there is no concencus on what the slave stroke should be

Doug, your avatar reflects my feelings today.

JFB your right there isn't a recognised distance but there are so many anomalies with this awful system that it isn't surprising.

Mikael
I disconnected the ERKit, and in truth the measurements I am taking aren't exactly precise, but the slave travel appeared identical.

But your right I don't care I just want a working clutch.

All Posters, thank you for your assistance its what the club is all about, so a happy new year to you all.

Peter dont give up

Can I ask you to supply photos of your slave and did you take some photos of the clutch kit prior to or during the install?

I dont know why but I suspect you were unable to bleed all the air out and that is causing you the trouble.

Goodroc pics for you
the ERKit now dangling and disconnected and the ordinary rod fitted.
The slave cyl, after bleeding I (by hand) screwed the piston fully rearwards into the cylinder, but could still rotate the pin holding the slave rod to the actuating arm, so very little pressure would be on the release bearing.

When I get a new longer throw slave more room will be available for adjustment.
It Does seem that AIR was my problem or one of them, but I must say I like your motorcycle.
best wishes to all for the new year too regards Pete.

Hi Peter

Sorry to go on, and I know you'll soon have a new slave, but two concerns based on your slave picture:
1. The stop bolt is not in use, it should be
2. The ring thingy is shown to be a little to the right versus the clevis pin, indicating the clevis pin is not big enough to fill the ring, creating a gap

Sorry to repeat myself, but please run through the 4 steps I posted early in this thread, it deals with both.

Peter you probably also need to rotate the slave about 90° in the bracket so that the bleeding point is the highest point!

Even if you feel that some of the things mentioned are not important, they are! It is precission engineering and the whole clutch is already marginal from the beginning with 100% original and correct parts. So NO shortcuts.....

Mikael, the bolt is not in use yet, because I dont have any space between the release bearing and the clutch fork levers.
When I get my new slave the bolt will be put to use just to have a minimal amount of space to ensure Release bearing longevity.
your number 2 point I do not understand?

are you talking about the spring?

quote:

Originally posted by goodroc:
Peter you probably also need to rotate the slave about 90° in the bracket so that the bleeding point is the highest point!

Even if you feel that some of the things mentioned are not important, they are! It is precission engineering and the whole clutch is already marginal from the beginning with 100% original and correct parts. So NO shortcuts.....

Goodroc I can assure you the bleed nipple IS at 12 o'clock the highest point available.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Fenlon:
your number 2 point I do not understand?

I summerized Mikeal's instructons

quote:

1. Master:
. a. (W/O ERK) pedal should be adjusted so at rest it’s between 0-½” closer to the driver than the brake pedal.
. b. with the pedal fully pressed down, there should be at least ½” gap to the firewall/carpet
2. Clutch axle arm:
. a. should be 90 degrees when the clutch pedal is half pressed down.
. b. check that there’s free movement, the arm or the bolt/nut doesnot rub on the ZF
. c. proper size clevis pin
3. Slave return bolt:
. a. Temporarily remove the spring.
. b. move the clutch axle arm rearwards, and feel for when it hits the resistance of the clutch.
. c. While holding the arm in that position, turn the screw so that it almost touches the bracket, leaving a 2mm gap.
. d. Reinstall the spring
4. Slave rod:
. a. take out the clevis pin and by hand press the slave rod all the way up in the slave.
. b. then release 1mm.
. c. adjust the length of the slave rod so the clevis can be put back in

his point #2 is about setting the arm 90 degress to the slave's bore

quote:

I summerized Mikeal's instructons
quote:

1. Master:
. a. (W/O ERK) pedal should be adjusted so at rest it’s between 0-½” closer to the driver than the brake pedal.
. b. with the pedal fully pressed down, there should be at least ½” gap to the firewall/carpet
2. Clutch axle arm:
. a. should be 90 degrees when the clutch pedal is half pressed down.
. b. check that there’s free movement, the arm or the bolt/nut doesnot rub on the ZF
. c. proper size clevis pin
3. Slave return bolt:
. a. Temporarily remove the spring.
. b. move the clutch axle arm rearwards, and feel for when it hits the resistance of the clutch.
. c. While holding the arm in that position, turn the screw so that it almost touches the bracket, leaving a 2mm gap.
. d. Reinstall the spring
4. Slave rod:
. a. take out the clevis pin and by hand press the slave rod all the way up in the slave.
. b. then release 1mm.
. c. adjust the length of the slave rod so the clevis can be put back in

Beautiful JFB! Guess being a writer I put too many words in between the important info...

Peter,

Do you have a stock master cylinder or aftermarket?

I believe that your clutch actuating arm may be one spline off, it looks as though it should be one more toward the rear. You have taken up all the slave rod adjustment to it's shortest, which should not be the case.

If you remove the helper return spring how much play do you have? If that is more than a couple mm then the first portion of your slave travel is purely taking up slack until the throw out engages on the clutch diaphragm. All you want is for it not to ride on the diaphragm, which is what the stop screw sets.

Happy New Year,
Julian

Hello Juliian,

the actuating arm is at the rearmost position.
there is no adjustment left on the rod to enable another spline to be reached,

I have standard master and slave from Roland in Germany. I have no free play if I remove the spring, but can rotate the pin holding the slave rod to the actuating arm, so not a lot of pressure is on the bearing.

I have now ordered a new longer throw slave which gives another 3mm of movement, this I feel will solve the problem allowing a smooth none graunching gear change and will allow space between the fingers and bearing too.
HNY to you too

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Fenlon:
...from Roland in Germany...longer throw slave which gives another 3mm of movement...

did Roland tell you the bore diameters of the original versus the long throw?

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Fenlon:
...from Roland in Germany...longer throw slave which gives another 3mm of movement...

did Roland tell you the bore diameters of the original versus the long throw?

No he didn't but It should move the slave another 3mm due to the bore being narrower.

expecting a 1.25X increase in stroke (13 -> 16 mm) would probably be going from the 1" original bore to 7/8"

Actually 1.3062, right JFB? 7/8 squared is 0.7656 so every millimeter of movement requires 0.7656 unit of fluid. So every unit of fluid moves the piston 1/0.7656=1.3062?