Clutch adjustment?

Peter,

The travel appears to be 8mm, including the free play, as measured in the attached pic.

FWIW, the previously posted pic of the effort reduction kit (the one that JFB annotated) is mine. I have 38,000 miles on that kit with no problems.

John

8mm !

that sure makes what I thought wrong

Lets just stop for a minute and make a reality check. There must be something fundamentally wrong with one or some of those parts you put together. There must be a mis-match somewhere! Did you get the Clutch parts as a kit or did you combine them from various vendors etc? It is not rocket scientism so there must be something that is not right somewhere like the throw out bearing being unsuitable for the pressure plate or what do I know.....

The fact that you tell me you cant get a feeler gauge between clutch and flywheel when the clutch is activated is weird. What if you disconnect the slave completely and slide a piece of pipe or a large socket with an extender over the arm to activate the clutch this way? just to eliminate the clutch/pressure plate/throw out bearing being the trouble.

If you provide some photos of your slave and linkage as well as the clutch parts etc. perhaps its possible to spot the issues?

quote:

Originally posted by goodroc:..
The fact that you tell me you cant get a feeler gauge between clutch and flywheel when the clutch is activated is weird. What if you disconnect the slave completely and slide a piece of pipe or a large socket with an extender over the arm to activate the clutch this way?...

And while using the cheater to stroke the clutch if you could measure the travel needed to "just touch" to when "feelers go"

Poor Peter, getting so many answers going in all directions.

Let's start with the root cause here, and then when solved, there may be other problems. Problem #1 here is lack of slave movement, not the clutch itself (could be a problem also)

12-13 mm at the slave is not enough, that has to be sorted first. The effort reduction kit (which I would throw away immediately but which works for some) doesn't help, because it of course presses less fluid for the same amount of pedal stroke. So even if all works perfectly, the room for error on adjusting the clutch is less.
The obvious thing is that if you have the right master and slave and no bubbles and all adjusted right, you have more than 12-13 mm movement at slave. Do you have an OEM master, or something cheap or fancy? I recommend a master from Roland in Germany, he has the orig size ones built in Italy, a little more expensive, works perfectly.

"Is your MC the original ~19mm BORE? with the slave bore of ~25mm? vendors do sell a long stroke slave which has a smaller bore. (smaller bore gives MORE stroke from the same MC)". But please, don't keep your effort reduction kit and invest in a long throw slave, because then you defeated the purpose of the effort reduction kit. You can't cheat physics, less effort at the pedal means less movement of the slave. Pure physics.

Here's what I would do. I would spend some money on this. Why? Because not having proper clutch disengagement can quickly ruin your ZF synchros, and then we're talking $$$. I would buy new OEM master and slave [Apologies Peter, re-reading the entire thread, I see now that you have a good master and slave from Roland], (OEM, no effort reduction kit and no long throw slave), bleed until I got proper slave travel. Only when that is succesful would I move to check the clutch. If at that point you can't adjust the clutch properly (see how in my 4 step instruction posted earlier in this thread), then you may need a new clutch. But fix the slave throw issue first.

(After searching a bit on this forum I found that a standard slave should have 5/8"=16mm and a long throw should have 3/4"=19mm. This will of course vary, but it confirms that your 12-13 mm is not as it should be)

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:....
(After searching a bit on this forum I found that a standard slave should have 5/8"=16mm and a long throw should have 3/4"=19mm. This will of course vary, but it confirms that your 12-13 mm is not as it should be)

Be sure that information was NOT something I posted, but from another source

The adjustment really is simple. You put a block on the clutch pedal holding it to max travel, then you turn the adjustment screw on the slave cylinder until you get the clearance specified between the disc and plate.

There was some discussion in the past of a slave cylinder that looked like the Pantera version but was from another application. I don't remember the specifics on that at the moment...and there is the stainless part from Pantera's East that has a different bore.

After adjusting for the clearance needed, when you release the clutch pedal, IF you don't get full lock up, replace the slave cylinder.

This is not rocket science.


I've never been to England so if I came and did this for you I'm very likely to just get distracted by all the typical tourist traps.

"The adjustment really is simple. You put a block on the clutch pedal holding it to max travel, then you turn the adjustment screw on the slave cylinder until you get the clearance specified between the disc and plate." Won't work...

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
"The adjustment really is simple. You put a block on the clutch pedal holding it to max travel, then you turn the adjustment screw on the slave cylinder until you get the clearance specified between the disc and plate." Won't work...

...in your world, where ever that might be? Mars?

PanteraDoug, I agree we're on different planets. Who is on what planet is the question.

With all due respect, I just wish you would only weigh in, when what you have to say actually helps the fellow Pantera owner who posed the original question...

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
PanteraDoug, I agree we're on different planets. Who is on what planet is the question.

With all due respect, I just wish you would only weigh in, when what you have to say actually helps the fellow Pantera owner who posed the original question...

As determined by you?

FWIW, I have OEM master and slave, I have adjusted as per the 4 steps I posted early in this thread, and I have just measured luring the wife to go with me in the cold garage to press the pedal. The slave moves 17mm.
Until you have 16-17mm, you don't have to look at the clutch.

Effort reduction kits, I don't see the need, and they do reduce slave travel. Has anybody here in this forum ever had a Pantera with a proper Pantera clutch, and felt that they needed to reduce the effort. I don't think my clutch pedal is hard, and can drive it for hours in traffic with no issue, and I'm no bodybuilder at all (no comments please). And the math is simple, if the effort reduction kit results in requiring X% less effort, the slave will move X% less. It's that simple. If it wasn't you could build a perpetual motion machine...

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Poor Peter, getting so many answers going in all directions.

And only to make it worse then you and PanteraDoug managed to turn the thread into your own little Battlefield

quote:

Originally posted by goodroc:

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Poor Peter, getting so many answers going in all directions.

And only to make it worse then you and PanteraDoug managed to turn the thread into your own little Battlefield

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
FWIW, I have OEM master and slave ... The slave moves 17mm.

Effort reduction kits, I don't see the need, and they do reduce slave travel... And the math is simple, if the effort reduction kit results in requiring X% less effort, the slave will move X% less. It's that simple....

Thanks for measuring and posting your slave stroke.

as for the effort reduction, the way it provides "advantage" is to reduce the slave stroke versus pedal when fully depressed. to make up for the loss of slave stroke you mention, the initial applying the clutch in fact moves the slave MORE for the first 30mm or so of pedal, before it begins the LESS slave stroke advantage.

as I have state earlier, if that b/c angle is too shallow, the toggle will "lockup" or worse, flip and go backwards. If the angle is made to great, you lose the "fast take up" and now the pedal travel will not stroke the slave its full travel because not bottoming out the MC

Re-reading the thread, some talk about not having too thick carpet etc. The pedal should not even touch the carpet, it should bottom out against the master cylinder internal stop, not the carpet and not the bracket the pedal is supported in (and not any parts of the effort reduction kit if so equipped). There should be at least ½" between pedal and carpet when the pedal hits the internal stop in the master cylinder

Thanks to all for your input, I didn't want lads to have "words" or bandy their handbags.

I am as you can imagine extremely cheesed of with the situation, and apologies for prolonging the agony.

Today I removed the ERKit and fitted the rod that came with the new master from Roland Jaeckel.

With this I adjusted the pedal to be about half an inch higher than the brake pedal, bled the system, and measured slave cylinder movement at 13mm (again).

But after the good lady had returned to the kitchen I did note that the first one and a half inches of pedal travel are a little soft before becoming solid.

Tomorrow I shall jack up the front a little and bleed again. then check if 16mm is possible using a long tube over the actuating arm.

By the way the pedal when fully depressed is not near the carpet.

Episode 149 commences tomorrow evening UK time.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Fenlon:
Thanks to all for your input, I didn't want lads to have "words" or bandy their handbags.

Episode 149 commences tomorrow evening UK time.

Do you mean like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce2jEDfPwG8

Personally I hate it when my panty hose rides up. It pulls on my pubies?

These girls got in some good shots too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqQQjH2Tctg

Bitches.

brilliant, life's far too short…………

Just wait till I get this clutch to work.

But character building I keep telling myself after severe fits of bloody absolute depression.
When getting nowhere.

Peter, are you near any of our Pantera friends in the UK?
Roger Brotton's shop can surely help you: I'm sure you'll get it right in the end, despite our help, but Roger has seen and done it all, and can maybe save you some time/iterations, either by advising you, or by having your car in his garage?

Better than getting depressed...