Seeking information concerning installation of EPAS electronic power steering in a Pantera.

quote:

Larry wrote:
Any idea why they went with the ZF mounted solution?

Larry,

They went with the VSS mounted on the transaxle because it made the installation a bit easier. The VSS they use is made by VDO. As I mentioned, they are quite happy to supply which ever VSS option suits the customer.

Just to clarify, the under-dash VSS doesn't mount directly to the speedometer, it connects to the speedometer by a short speedo cable.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

So if I am getting your thought on this right, you think the EPS just needs a 12v power source and a way to know how fast the vehicle is moving? That is a "stand alone"?
Wouldn't that make the signal from the VSS necessary and that signal what would be modified somehow with the "dimmer switch", probably with some kind of a mini circuit contained within to 'translate' that signal to a CAN signal if it is not already?

What type of signal does a VSS produce now?

In a sense yes, most modern vehicle modules are just that. They each control their own items and talk to each other via CAN to gain more info. For example an abs module will have four wheel speed sensors. The speed sensors will output either a digital square wave or a sine wave. The abs unit will count these pulses and calculate wheel speed. Rather than trying to connect the four wheel speed sensors to other devices which would have to each do their own calculations the ABS unit merely tells the other modules what the speeds are. As for the EPAS unit it is not quite so simple as a speed input and power. There is a master module in the car which is kind of like a hub. This is usually the BCM or the dash cluster. This module has to first send out a wake up command to all of the other modules to get them ready to receive and send data. After that the modules start to transmit their respective data and receive relevant data from other modules. This is what the Cobalt EPAS is looking for. Without knowing the exact identifier and configuration of the CAN bus data required the EPAS will not be fully functional. For interest sake A can bus message looks something like
000005a1 8 11 22 33 44 55 66 77 88
Imagine a hundred of these flying around the can bus per second. Now imagine trying to figure out which one of those is the one you are looking for. Once you find it you then have to figure out its structure. This is why there aren't a lot of guys out there doing this. Some of the older EPAS units dont use this such as the MR2 units however most if not all of the new ones do.

In is interesting to note that CAN communication is different then say your computer on a network. On a computer network when you communicate with something you create a direct link and flow communication back and forth.

A CAN Bus network is a chatty network. There are no direct links but rather all devises are spewing out data or information. If 2 talk at the same time the device with higher priority is allowed to speak.

If you want to know information from something you simply listen. If an EGT sends out a value you wait for a message to pass down the network from the EGT and just read the values as it goes by.

Well I'm a mechanical guy and got left behind when we started talking about buses in Canada!

Does this $150 unit provide what is required to use full functionality of the Cobalt/Vue EPAS? It seems popular with the classic Mustang guys.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Ch...AOSwiDFYQ2tN&vxp=mtr

quote:

Originally posted by Joules:
Well I'm a mechanical guy and got left behind when we started talking about buses in Canada!

Does this $150 unit provide what is required to use full functionality of the Cobalt/Vue EPAS? It seems popular with the classic Mustang guys.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Ch...AOSwiDFYQ2tN&vxp=mtr

One of my buddies just picked up one of those. I will let you know how it works as soon as I hear from him.

So my buddy says he got his working with the little black box with the rheostat. He used the VUE column. The maker of the little unit said it would not work on the Cobalt system so there is definitely a difference in data. He does not have functional speed assist yet however will be doing some testing with integrating it into his megasquirt ECU. His one gripe is that there is no self centering.

quote:

PanteraDoug wrote:
The other thing about these kits is how sure are "you" about the dependability of them in a high performance vehicle, i.e., what do you do if the unit fails at over 100 mph and you can't steer it?

If my EZ Electric system failed at 100 mph, I wouldn't be aware of it because it provides no power assist at that kind of speed. Even at low speeds, if it fails or I decide to disable it, the steering reverts back to normal, non-assisted, Pantera steering.

quote:

PanteraDoug wrote:
So, ON THIS BOLT IN "KIT" (supposedly a PLUG AND PLAY), Either you are going through the floor with this two inches or the steering wheel is going to be 2" closer to you OR you are doing away with the original Pantera lock/ignition switch location and the ignition cover?

I'm sure Scott will correct me if I'm wrong, but the only issue with the EPAS Performance kit (as discussed earlier in this topic) that SACC now sells, is the mounting bracket (as developed by EPAS Performance) being off by about two inches,...that's all. The unit is not two inches too long. The issue is mounting location (height) not length. Scott is developing a revised bracket that will rectify the issue.

Doug, IF I was to install power steering (for my little wife's convenience) on our Pantera, I would go with the electro-hydraulic unit from a '92-'95 U.S-spec MR-2 Turbo. That unit uses a conventional power-assisted rack and a hydraulic pump driven directly by a starter-sized electric motor inches away from the rack up front. The hoses are very short as is the response. It has it's own stand-alone black box that takes speed info from an electric speedo, if you choose to use the variable ratio assist. Very popular with off-road rally guys who use hand-made emulators instead of factory sensors. Developed by a close friend who has one in his 350-Chev powered Huffacker Fiero (ex-GTU racer). He now autocrosses it. With 12" gumballs up front, it's a handful without PS! He also has one in a Northstar V-8 powered Fiero street car.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Scott is not always completely revealing.

"Daddy, why is the sky blue". "Because". OK. Doesn't help the discussion.

Pictures are helpful.

I'm very glad that you feel safe with yours David.

I've had two here. The Vue and the Fiesta. Neither will turn without being powered up. Loose power, locked up.

I've already said I'm not installing this thing. That's for a bunch of reasons but I am interested in knowing how they work.

Act as you will but unlike others I'm not going to stomp around and act like a juvenile just because no one else agrees with me.

If you say I'm wrong, you are probably right, but when were you speaking to my wife?

Doug, WTF are you on, do you have any idea how ridiculous many of your posts and rants are? Do you realize you ARE the one stomping around like a juvenile! If you can't add anything to the discussion then just say nothing and follow along with others who are trying to have and adult conversation and like me you might learn something about the challenges along the way.

Julian

quote:

I will now withdraw from this discussion by popular demand.

Baby, please don't go
Baby, please don't go
Baby, please don't go
Down to New Orleans
You know I love you so
Baby, please don't


It's hard enough for us Yanks to figure you out, Doug.

Being British and all probably makes it even more difficult for Julian.

We will now all join hands and sing Kum ba yah.



Larry

Larry,

I never took you for the Gospel choir type

I consider myself to have a pretty good sense of humor, but perhaps I'm not so into slapstick comedy

quote:

Doug, WTF are you on, do you have any idea how ridiculous many of your posts and rants are? Do you realize you ARE the one stomping around like a juvenile! If you can't add anything to the discussion then just say nothing and follow along with others who are trying to have and adult conversation and like me you might learn something about the challenges along the way.

I second that. I've seen so many serious technical threads ruined by PanteraDoug. Both by "humour", not my kind, with youtubes of old ladies fighting with handbags (WTF?), and with very firm statements on what will work, sometimes simply not correct. I, for a while, saw it as my God given obligation to correct these statements, so that newbies on this forum didn't make a costly/dangerous mistake, but I have given up.

This isn't Facebook...

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Doug, IF I was to install power steering (for my little wife's convenience) on our Pantera, I would go with the electro-hydraulic unit from a '92-'95 U.S-spec MR-2 Turbo. That unit uses a conventional power-assisted rack and a hydraulic pump driven directly by a starter-sized electric motor inches away from the rack up front. The hoses are very short as is the response. It has it's own stand-alone black box that takes speed info from an electric speedo, if you choose to use the variable ratio assist. Very popular with off-road rally guys who use hand-made emulators instead of factory sensors. Developed by a close friend who has one in his 350-Chev powered Huffacker Fiero (ex-GTU racer). He now autocrosses it. With 12" gumballs up front, it's a handful without PS! He also has one in a Northstar V-8 powered Fiero street car.

My feeling on this after reviewing as much as I could get, I personally would only feel comfortable with a dedicated EPS rack. A real bolt in.

TY for this info Boss, I do appreciate it. I might even investigate that application...just to expand my horizons?


I will now withdraw from this discussion by popular demand.

Mine is a dedicated rack but is anything but a bolt on. I absolutely love the outcome but the process was quite a job.

I think the first thing is to locate a rack. The Pantera rack is not right an causes Bump steer by it's dimensions. People mask the problem by changing the rack height but you cannot get rid of it until the rack is addressed.

The ratio of the rack and movement of the rack must also be figured out. The hose positions need to be in a position you can work with as well.

If all that could be sorted out the electric pump is the easy part.

With the rack I used I spent much time in a suspension program working out the geometry. Even this only got me "close". When I got done bump steer was effected by both height of the rack and the distance between the pivot point.

The width of the rack was a adjusted using a threaded shaft. I cut the rack and tack welded the threaded rod in place and used a rebuild able ball joint so I could weld it on.

Once adjustments were made it was welded in place.

To get the rack to fit some structure was cut out. To fix that I made a box the rack bolted to then bolted the box in to replace the metal and even added a little rigidity in the area.

The rack is adjustable in height on the box.:



To fine tune the bump steer I spent a month of spare time messing with rack height and the rack width before welding it all up and tightening down the adjustments.



The result was Zero bump steer in the full rand of suspension travel (+/-) 1/32" full range:

With my setup I mounted the electric power steering pump where people put the battery drop down box:





This is both good and bad. It's a good spot to put it but a terrible spot to work on. Tightening hoses was working with cutting off and re-welding wrenches and getting your hands where you can't see what your doing.

Second issue is if I need to work on it again I have to remove the cooling tubes:


I am 100% pleased with how it operates. I like the ability to turn it off. I would however not recommend the exact route I took to get here.
However, it may lead to a better route!!

Perhaps drop the pump in from the top like the drop in batteries.

The real solution to this entire equation is finding or having made for public consumption a power steering rack purposely configured for this car.

If that could be done the process gets a 1000x easier.

Comp2,

How much too long is the Pantera's steering rack? Would moving the front spindles further out, by using longer front control arms, have the same effect as shortening the rack?

As far as the electric PS pump is concerned; it may help to use a pump with a remote reservoir. I believe late model Mini's use an electric PS pump with a remote reservoir. Ultimate Power Steering in Australia has one but it's a bit pricey (AUD $1,300 / http://www.ultimatepowersteeri...r-steering-pump-kit/ ). It also looks like the late model Mini pump to me.

quote:

Originally posted by David_Nunn:
Comp2,

How much too long is the Pantera's steering rack? Would moving the front spindles further out, by using longer front control arms, have the same effect as shortening the rack?

I think it was about 1.5". Been a while since I looked at it. It has to do with the relationship between the pivot point on the steering rack and the pivot points on the control arms so changing the length of the control arm does not change anything.

Here is a good explanation from Longacre racing.