Rene, maybe the connection of the pertronix box in the car, I think for example who should not connect the original blue/black wire which goes from the coil to the rev counter.
@dipascale posted:Rene, maybe the connection of the pertronix box in the car, I think for example who should not connect the original blue/black wire which goes from the coil to the rev counter.
The blue wire from the rev counter is connected to a specific wire on the box, in fact it doesn't work but I'll see about that later.
I will try with the old point distributor since the Pertronix 510 box can work with it, so I will check if the new Chinese distributor is responsible or not; moreover I will be able to adjust the advance easily at the stop without needing the stroboscopic lamp.
I don't know the Pertronix but on an MSD box we need an adapter for the rev counter and I don't know if this is the case on the Pertronix, in doubt, I will disconnect the blue wire from the rev counter.
There are several possible wiring of the tachometer with the Pertronix but I will fix this problem when the engine is running properly.
@rene4406 posted:It's new and I put two inside each other, but it's a possibility.
There isn't much left to examine.
There are only a few things that will affect the firing of the ignition. You have already looked at most. The distributor cam gear is left to examine.
With all camshaft manufacturers there is always the possibility that the camshaft itself was not indexed properly before it was ground. I have had issues with aftermarket camshafts.
In my case it was Compcams and that simply had to do with insufficient "quality control" in setting up the camshaft blank before it was ground and the company only spot checking one out of three finished camshafts before shipping them.
With a custom grind, theoretically the procedure is different and it is all set up and indexed by a technician. We just don't know the procedure Bullet cams would use to actually grind the lobs though.
It might be better to set it into a program and let the computer run the machine through a CNC procedure or that might have pitfalls as well.
To find an error in the ground profile at this point though would mean "indexing the cam", which is an SOB if you ask me, but I begrudgingly agree that it is necessary to verify the cam is "right on".
I calibrated the cam with a graduated disk and a dial gauge on the pushers to determine the maximum lift. I really have very few doubts on this point.
I'm going to focus on the ignition.
I tried with the old point igniter, no big improvement, always backfiring so it's not the igniter. On the other hand, with the old carburetor, the engine reacts to the adjustment of the mixture screws.
I checked my strobe light on another car and it works perfectly. On the Pantera, instability manifests itself when there are misfires, which is normal. So all that remains is the ignition box, new but......., the spark plug wires and the spark plugs. I'm going to change the spark plugs and spark plug wires and if that still doesn't work there will only be the ignition box left.
Still to confirm:
Distributor cam gear slipped
Distributor cap bad , rotor bad
95% of carburetor problems are ignition related.
@panterapatt posted:Still to confirm:
Distributor cam gear slipped
Distributor cap bad , rotor bad
Changing distributor would have solved the problem
@rene4406 posted:Changing distributor would have solved the problem
The translation is not clear. Is the problem fixed with changing the distributor?
@panteradoug posted:The translation is not clear. Is the problem fixed with changing the distributor?
No!
I wrote previously that replacing the distributor did not fix the problem and as the gear and the cap are part of the distributor I wrote that replacing it would have fix the problem if it had been the one or the other.
Sometimes here we get blind to the actual problem. Often we can have a friend come and look for what they see the issue is. Fresh eyes can help.
@panteradoug posted:Sometimes here we get blind to the actual problem. Often we can have a friend come and look for what they see the issue is. Fresh eyes can help.
You are right but I don't have a friend close to me with good mechanical knowledge.
I put in new spark plugs and activated the "multispark" function of the Pertronix box, there is an improvement, there are fewer misfires but there are still backfires and explosions. in the exhaust.
Among the old spark plugs there were some that looked almost okay and others that were very black and when I plug my strobe light into different spark plug wires, some are much less stable than others.
I am now almost certain that the ignition is the fault and I will order a new spark plug wire harness and igniter cap. My current spark plug wires may not be suitable for a "high performance" ignition like the Pertronix. I half believe it but I don't see what else to change apart from the box itself.
I can ONLY react to what POSSIBLY might be causing the misfiring and when you get to the point that ALL ELSE has been eliminated, then I will suggest again that the camshaft is the issue, being ground with the wrong firing order like a 1960's 289-302 firing order.
You would have to have degreed EVERY cylinder in order to discover that. Normally no one does that, just degrees in #1.
More and more it indicates TO ME that the camshaft itself was ground with the wrong firing order AND THAT THE IGNITION IS FIRING CORRECTLY.
IF THAT IS SO, you are not getting "backfires", you are hearing the spark plugs fire while the valves are still open. That is why some have suggested that the distributor is installed 180° out of phase. It certainly CAN be the answer.
I have a "friend" who is now retired but once sold aftermarket Ford racing parts and complete engines.
He once sold a 427 Ford engine to someone who had the distributor installed "backwards" or more correctly described as 180° out of phase. He had to accept the engine in return because he was accused of selling a "defective" engine.
The fact of the matter is that SOME engines are capable of running that way , on 4 cylinders, while most are not. I do not know if a 351C is or not. I never had to find that out.
I DO NOT like that answer either BUT just as Shelock Holes once said, "when all other possibilities are eliminated, what remains must be the answer".
You have already done so many things I can't keep up with what has been done and what has not.
You can actually test the theory that of the distributor being out of phase by 180° by changing the rotor in the distributor.
Ford rotors are made in two ways. One with the locking tab on the rotor pointer side, the other opposite the pointer. Whichever rotor you have now, find one with the opposite orientation, install it and see if the engine fires correctly then.
It can not hurt at this point.
Since it appears to me that I am not contributing to this discussion positively at this point, I will now retire from commenting in it at all and just wish and hope for the best.
All the ideas are good in principle and I study them all.
But do you think the engine could run at 1100 rpm with little misfire, even if there is some, with a cam or an offset igniter?
I can check the camshaft and the correct orientation of the distributor by removing the cylinder head covers and watching that the valves open and close at the correct time relative to the position of the distributor finger. I could also just offset the spark plug wires in the igniter head.
Before, I might reassemble the old breaker ignition system, without the Pertronix box, I just need to redo some temporary wiring to connect the ballast.
Thanks for your help
@rene4406 posted:All the ideas are good in principle and I study them all.
But do you think the engine could run at 1100 rpm with little misfire, even if there is some, with a cam or an offset igniter?
I can check the camshaft and the correct orientation of the distributor by removing the cylinder head covers and watching that the valves open and close at the correct time relative to the position of the distributor finger. I could also just offset the spark plug wires in the igniter head.
Before, I might reassemble the old breaker ignition system, without the Pertronix box, I just need to redo some temporary wiring to connect the ballast.
Thanks for your help
I know I said I will stay out of it but since your reply was so quick I will answer.
If the camshaft is ground with the wrong firing order, you can not adjust for that.
The valve opening timing is to the piston travel position. If the cam is wrong then there should be some concern for valves hitting the pistons and as a result some being bent.
I don't have a camshaft calculator program to graph the position the valves would be in if the cam is mis-ground but if it is wrong then I'm thinking that only the valves in two cylinders would be wrong and it makes it more likely that your engine can run on only six cylinders.
At this point I would not place a large bet on that scenario but long shots do come in. $20 on a 100 to 1 is a nice prize.
Compression on all cylinders is good, so I'm sure none of the valves are bent but that doesn't completely rule out a camshaft fault. For example, there may be an error of 180° on the cam (360° on the crankshaft) for one or more cylinders, the valves do not touch the pistons but the spark occurs at the wrong time. It's not totally impossible.
@rene4406 posted:Compression on all cylinders is good, so I'm sure none of the valves are bent but that doesn't completely rule out a camshaft fault. For example, there may be an error of 180° on the cam (360° on the crankshaft) for one or more cylinders, the valves do not touch the pistons but the spark occurs at the wrong time. It's not totally impossible.
The likeliness or the percentage of probability is growing steadily in that direction.
Degreeing the cam presumes that all of the lobes for all of the cylinders are in proper relationship to each other. It does not provide for one or more lobes being ground out of sync with the others.
The only way I can see to confirm the likeliness of that scenario is to install another camshaft. Can we make this any more difficult?
I had an issue with a new camshaft here. It was replaced as a "courtesy" to me. It was missing a part of one of the distributor gear drive teeth. It was not acknowledged by the manufacturer as a warranty defect. It was brand new in the box.
Here in the US the situation on "legal damages" I found to be frustrating at least.
IF for instance a "painter" charges you $20 to paint your front door white but it turns out pink and you hire a new painter to paint it white but he charges you $100, the original painter is only liable for the $20 he charged you.
So by the same token, if you paid Bullet cams $400 for the cam, it destroys your engine and it costs you $10,000 to replace it, in a US court Bullet AT MOST would be liable for the $400.
It isn't me, that's as we say here "that's the law".
I am purely speculating on this but I'd guess that the cam physically fits a 351c but I think they ground the lobes on the 289 firing order? Did I say that before? Well, it's worth repeating.
This is all bumming me out also. I am going to wind up arguing with the Referee and getting thrown out of the game. I just hope I don't hit him and they call the Police and arrest me?
Just thinking on how to troubleshoot… “If the cam is ground for a 351C or 289…”
it would seem to me, you could just manually turn the engine over, and watch the valves.
At TDC for each cylinder (which you could monitor via distributor position) both the intake and exhaust will be closed (valves all the way up).
351C’s firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Ford 289 engine is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
You might not notice this if you were doing your compression checks just based on spring position.
Anyway, the difference ought to show up within about a rotation or two of the crankshaft. Seems like a pretty easy check that you may have already completed.
It certainly would be good to confirm before camshaft removal.
Good luck
Rocky
And all that is needed to change from one firing order to the other is to change the location of 4 plug wires
You are a smart man, Forest!
@rene4406 posted:All the ideas are good in principle and I study them all.
But do you think the engine could run at 1100 rpm with little misfire, even if there is some, with a cam or an offset igniter?
I can check the camshaft and the correct orientation of the distributor by removing the cylinder head covers and watching that the valves open and close at the correct time relative to the position of the distributor finger. I could also just offset the spark plug wires in the igniter head.
Before, I might reassemble the old breaker ignition system, without the Pertronix box, I just need to redo some temporary wiring to connect the ballast.
Thanks for your he
lp
I don't want to offend anyone and especially not those who are trying to help me but it is obvious that it is not necessary to replace the cam with another to check it and that you just have to observe the valves open and close for two revolutions of the crankshaft. This is actually what I considered in my post above.
Today I'm going to install the whole old original point, capacitor and coil ignition system that worked well when I bought the car almost 6 years ago.
I doubt that anyone would be offended here. I'm not. It is obvious that you are not a novice at this but it appears that something out of the ordinary is occurring and we are just adding wine and beer to the festival. None of it will go to waste even though there was already plenty on hand.
It is only speculation on my part that if the cam was mis-ground to another firing order that it would be more likely that it would be to something similar in the same family like another Ford, rather then say a BMW.
Could it be as simple as the cam dowl being installed 180° wrong? That would really be far fetched?
I'm not sure if Occam's Razor applies here?
Incidentally, the reason that Ford changed the 289 to the 351 firing order was really a strange one in that very late in the 289-302's history the engine began to experience crankshaft failures. Failures in that the crankshaft would break in two.
There experimentally, their solution would be to change the crankshaft loading by changing the firing order without attempting to "redesign the wheel", so to speak. So even if this is the cause of the trouble here, and the engine runs on the 289 firing order, it would not be advisable to run it extensively with that.
Additionally, even if this is the issue, I would expect Bullet Cams to react to this with something like "YOU are full of 'do-do", WE don't make mistakes like that. It must be YOU who is mistaken", and why not? To admit a mistake like that to me would make them "totally disqualified".
Long shots do come in. I have never bet on them before the fact, only acknowledged them too late!
Almost Eureca, almost Victory
With the old ignition system, the engine runs well on all 8 cylinders! There are still some backfires at startup and if I want to reduce the idle too much, below 1100 rpm, it messes up, then a big backfire and it stalls but with a cam that has 60° crossover and vacuum advance which no longer works (the old membrane of the old igniter is pierced), this is perhaps normal. The spark plugs, even the new ones, worked with poor ignition and some may already be more or less out of service, I will order a new set.
So either the Pertronix box is malfunctioning, or the spark plug wires are not suitable for too powerful ignition and create crossfires. I'm going to start with a new spark plug wire harness, I'm thinking of buying these:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pnx-808280
because I can buy them from a seller in France.
And if it still malfunctions I will just have to change the box wich is brand new but as I bought it almost 5 years ago, there is no point in hoping to have it changed under warranty.
@rene4406 posted:Almost Eureca, almost Victory
With the old ignition system, the engine runs well on all 8 cylinders! There are still some backfires at startup and if I want to reduce the idle too much, below 1100 rpm, it messes up, then a big backfire and it stalls but with a cam that has 60° crossover and vacuum advance which no longer works (the old membrane of the old igniter is pierced), this is perhaps normal. The spark plugs, even the new ones, worked with poor ignition and some may already be more or less out of service, I will order a new set.
So either the Pertronix box is malfunctioning, or the spark plug wires are not suitable for too powerful ignition and create crossfires. I'm going to start with a new spark plug wire harness, I'm thinking of buying these:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pnx-808280
because I can buy them from a seller in France.And if it still malfunctions I will just have to change the box wich is brand new but as I bought it almost 5 years ago, there is no point in hoping to have it changed under warranty.
Fords have always had a susceptibility to cross firing through the spark plug wires. It isn't normally this radical though.
For instance, the Ford shop manual on the '68 302s shows that you must keep spark plug wire #7 and #8 at opposite ends of the loom on the valve cover.
That is with the '60s versions of the spark plug wire materials though. The current thick 7, 8 and 9mm silicone covered wires should not have those issues.
A few thoughts from 10,000 miles away, Rene-
1- Bullet Cams is one of the easiest, most willing-to-work-with-you companies in the whole aftermarket world. Call them and ask for the owner Mike Jones. Be sure they realize this is an overseas call-
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs
Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
(704)489-2449
2- have you checked the cam chain? I've seen them worn out on a 351-C in 20,000 miles and a severe cam retard can cause odd issues
3- with incorrect cam possibilities, there are reverse-rotation cams made for dual engined boats, cams ground with GM's so-called '4-7 cylinder swap' that on a Ford V-8 is a 2-8 cylinder swap with corresponding ignition wires involved
4- The Pertronix box is the only electronic ignition I've ever found that can only partially fail but still run the engine.
Is the problem fixed?
I think so but I haven't been able to verify it yet.
I think the spark plug wire harness creates cross fires and/or misfires especially with modern high voltage an high energy ignition. I spotted a damaged and "burnt" spot on the wire that connects the coil to the igniter.
I bought a new harness but I haven't had time to fit it yet and I have to bring the car back to my bodybuilder on Monday to redo the paint he missed the first time.
I will only be able to check when I have the car again in a month.........or more.
A simple but revealing test is to fire up the engine with the engine cover up or open, in a dark garage with the lights off. If you have crossfires or other high-voltage leaks, it wil look like a fireworks display around the engine wiring. Sometimes you need a second person to watch while you put the engine under load by putting it in gear and slipping the clutch for just a few seconds. Mark the 'hot' areas and fix as required the next morning.
@bosswrench posted:A simple but revealing test is to fire up the engine with the engine cover up or open, in a dark garage with the lights off. If you have crossfires or other high-voltage leaks, it wil look like a fireworks display around the engine wiring. Sometimes you need a second person to watch while you put the engine under load by putting it in gear and slipping the clutch for just a few seconds. Mark the 'hot' areas and fix as required the next morning.
This has always been the fast way to check the wires but caution, if you have Webers with open stacks, firing the engine up in the dark will either char you for life or terrify you about driving the car.
The Weber light show in the dark is better then the aurora boriallis.
Be careful on who you invite to see this. There might be someone in the group who will turn you in to the secret police as a threat to society for running Weber carbs.
I had a similar problem. My car suddenly didn't want to start anymore.
After some searching I found out that i didn't have 12V at the coil (Petronix Ignitor 3 with Flamethrower 3 coil). After fixing that the engine still didn't run but backfired. The engine itself was fine with good compression.
After several months and a lot of ideas that were all wrong (including changing the Ignitor module, plug wires, cap, rotor, plugs...), I finally decided to get rid of the pertronix completely and changed to a used Mallory Distributor a friend had lying around. Car started immediately and runs without issues.
Last time I ever use Pertronix.
Funny sidenote: with the pertronix my tach never worked properly, despite using adapter boxes etc., with the mallory it works fine.
@GeorgS posted:I had a similar problem. My car suddenly didn't want to start anymore.
After some searching I found out that i didn't have 12V at the coil (Petronix Ignitor 3 with Flamethrower 3 coil). After fixing that the engine still didn't run but backfired. The engine itself was fine with good compression.
After several months and a lot of ideas that were all wrong (including changing the Ignitor module, plug wires, cap, rotor, plugs...), I finally decided to get rid of the pertronix completely and changed to a used Mallory Distributor a friend had lying around. Car started immediately and runs without issues.
Last time I ever use Pertronix.
Funny sidenote: with the pertronix my tach never worked properly, despite using adapter boxes etc., with the mallory it works fine.
I suppose that it has to be acknowledged that not everyone who posts or asks questions or for help here are not very versed, but for quite some time the lack of dependability of MSD ignition systems have generally been referred to as Might Suddenly Die.
At times this seems like talking to a 12 year old cautioned about setting off fireworks and constantly has them going off in their hands? I don't get that?
It is true that MSD company has been sold several times and may or may not increased their dependability level but the common knowledge of experienced "street rodders" is don't use them, they suck and you are going to get stuck on the road somewhere at some time. Period. End of story.
It is VERY COMMON for racers to replace the MSD cpu three or four times a racing season. They are no more dependable in street use.
There are better alternatives to them but you need more then casual knowledge to determine that.
Support MSD as you will but if it goes off in your hands it is gonna' hurt. That seems to be a need to know?
Interesting
The alternatives to Pertronix and MSD, is it Ford Duraspark? But there are fewer features, no rev limiter, no start retard and no multi-spark.
I went with ICE Ignition. Has worked well so far.
@rene4406 posted:Interesting
The alternatives to Pertronix and MSD, is it Ford Duraspark? But there are fewer features, no rev limiter, no start retard and no multi-spark.
Pantera=Electronics has a nice one with the features you are looking for. It is designed for the Pantera.
"The alternatives to Pertronix and MSD, is it Ford Duraspark? But there are fewer features, no rev limiter, no start retard and no multi-spark."
Duraspark does have start retard, it's the white wire.
@panteradoug posted:Pantera=Electronics has a nice one with the features you are looking for. It is designed for the Pantera.
If I have to replace my Pertronix, I will look at it with interest
@rene4406 posted:If I have to replace my Pertronix, I will look at it with interest
You might want to inquire with Jon as to his stock on his ignition systems. He has been having difficulty obtaining components such as chips and some are sporadically out of stock with no know date for more?
I do not know if that situation has changed but the current on line listing would suggest items that are available.
@rene4406 posted:Interesting
The alternatives to Pertronix and MSD, is it Ford Duraspark? But there are fewer features, no rev limiter, no start retard and no multi-spark.
You can find articles/threads that the durapark has problems at higher RPMs, I have no experience with that myself.
@Panterdoug: i don't understand your reply about MSD issues to my Pertronix problems. I assume you refer to Mallory belongs to MSD. The Distributor I have is an older system, pre-MSD.