Installing new valvesprings question

Why is installing new springs a good idea?

What makes you think there's anything wrong with the existing springs?

-G

I figured if the springs are as old as the rockers and engine, then they are probably due for replacement.

Maybe you should spend the money for the springs on steel rocker arms ?

I'm assuming the original rockers were not switched out at some point, so that means they've been running in the engine for a LONG time. Long past their expected life length, and they've been run HARD, and revved to over 8000 (found am article in one of the newsletters where previous owner dynoed car to 8000).

When I asked about the report and the unusual wear on the intake rockers, one of the reasons given was possibly bad springs, valves not being controlled properly.

Since I know I won't be running this engine to 8000, and I won't be putting too many miles on it before I rebuild or replace this engine, and since the aluminum rockers lasted many many years before showing problems, I though the $150 on a set of new springs for insurance would be better spent than the extra $550 it would have cost to upgrade to steel rockers.

OK, so I'm ordering a set of direct replacement springs for the engine.

I'm not sure about R&R'ing the springs though.

I've watched videos, and there's a tool that threads into a hole (I'm assuming the rocker stud hole) and makes the job quick and easy.

My heads have a steel bracket that has the cradles for the rocker shafts. It looks to me like they are bolted down onto the heads by the old rocker stud holes.

SO, I'm thinking i need to remove the steel brackets so I can use the stud holes to screw in the spring compressor?

It looks like I can remove the steel brackets, and replace and retorque them after R&R'ing the springs and be on my way.

Am I correct in this assumption?

I also plan to remove the manifolds and center cover plate and give the lifters a gander. I should check everything while I'm in there I think. It would suck to do all this work and then have a lifter take a shit.

Also, does anyone make manifold gaskets for C3L heads?

In these videos you watched, how did they hold the valve up while pushing the spring down ?

Compressed air

If you go the compressed air route, with those spring pressures, you will be also testing the valve seats, the spark plug seats and the compression rings.

If those leak on you...learn to duck fast.

Doing the heads on the bench is safer in my opinion and is the only way that I would do a spring change.

Just sayin'.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
If you go the compressed air route, with those spring pressures, you will be also testing the valve seats, the spark plug seats and the compression rings.

If those leak on you...learn to duck fast.

Doing the heads on the bench is safer in my opinion and is the only way that I would do a spring change.

Just sayin'.

I agree.

Unless you have a compressor that can maintain at least 100psi (preferably more) you may find the spring pressure has locked the collets in so hard it may exceed the ability of the air pressure to hold the valve while trying to release the collets.

I think i read somewhere your spring pressures are pretty high ??

It may work ok but you should be aware that it may require you to remove the heads, which frankly at this stage i wouldn't do as you are in serious danger of getting into work/task creep.
eg: i'm doing this so i might as well do that, and this other thing, and something else, and that as well, ect, ect, ect.

I've changed many springs safely with the heads on the block. Remove the sparkplug and insert a soft cord in the cylinder. Then rotate the piston to top dead center. The valve will not fall into the cylinder.

AAAHHH!

I used that trick to remove the flywheels off my small model car and airplane engines.

Thanks for the tip!

I was wondering how I'd get a tool to screw into the plug holes, as there is No Room. This tip gets me half way there!

Now I just need to figure out if I need to remove the steel brackets and use the stud holes for the removal tool (Probably I think) unless a shop near me has a tool designed to remove valvesprings on a shaft-style head setup.

I found this spring removal tool. Looks like it'll do the job.

I watched a video where the gentleman suggests reinforcing the tool by welding a tab to part of it so it lasts longer.

http://www.eastwood.com/gearwr...atchtype={MatchType}

New valvesprings on order, as well as gasket material, ordered from Rousch-Yates.

As soon as I get up enough gumption, I'm gonna pull off the injection and center cover and inspect the lifters.

If it all checks out I'll be reinstalling the injection, and center cover (modified so I can remove part of the center cover for inspection), installing new valvepsrings, installing rebodied rockers, and (knock on wood) I then should have a mechanically sound engine.

Hopefully it'll run the same, so I can play around with my uni-sync tool, work on getting things synced up, and then I hope to be able to drive the car around again.

After all this I'll be looking into further tuning with the old Haltech unit if it is possible.

It is a lot harder to get a valve off the seat with compressed air on the other side than you think. 1.5-2inch valve with 100psi of air on the back side, just do the math

I'm not sure what you are saying here, maybe it is in response to the suggestion of using the rope stuffed into the hole to keep the valve closed? I won't be doing that in any case.

I'll be using compressed air to hold the valves closed, and swapping the springs out with a spring compressor tool.

quote:

Originally posted by 8pack:
It is a lot harder to get a valve off the seat with compressed air on the other side than you think. 1.5-2inch valve with 100psi of air on the back side, just do the math

quote:

Originally posted by 8pack:.... 1.5-2inch valve with 100psi of air on the back side, just do the math

177-314 pounds
(sorry, just had to)

Sure would LIKE to see the dyno sheet/print-out with the engine revving to 8,000rpms.

Would be VERY interesting to see at what rpm the engine quick making power...Mark

I would use air. I have used air a bunch of times. If you are worried you can roll each cyl to TDC but I normally just put it in the highest gear and set the e-brake.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
I'm not sure what you are saying here, maybe it is in response to the suggestion of using the rope stuffed into the hole to keep the valve closed? I won't be doing that in any case.

I'll be using compressed air to hold the valves closed, and swapping the springs out with a spring compressor tool.

quote:

Originally posted by 8pack:
It is a lot harder to get a valve off the seat with compressed air on the other side than you think. 1.5-2inch valve with 100psi of air on the back side, just do the math

What am I supposed to be worried about?

I'm going to use compressed air, the valves aren't going anywhere as long as the line remains hooked up.

If the piston is mid-stroke, it might make the motor move a little when I put the pressure to it, but no big deal there.

I'm way more worried about having my wisdom teeth removed on Tuesday.

8-pak is probably concerned- as I would be- that 100 psi in a nice well-lubed engine will rotate the crank! Especially if a piston is about half-way up or down its stroke and the tranny is in neutral. Seen it happen on an engine stand with the pan off, and it really startled the builder! But putting the tranny in gear & setting the brake will fix this.

AAAHHH, I see.

Well, the worst it can do is rotate the motor to BDC of that hole, so I'll be ready for some movement, and keep the car in neutral.

All the rockers are off.

Once I get the new springs installed, I'll install the rockers, and the motor will be happier turning over.

The e-brake is purely ornamental until I install the bracket on the crossmember to hold the cables.

I am worried about task creep.

I have new rockers and springs going in. I am tempted to take the top of the engine off and check the lifters and cam as well, BUT, if I find anything wrong there, then it's just OVER!

I might as well just pull the motor then and do the complete rebuild.

I also do not want to pull the heads either.

Regarding the valves and collets and compressed air. My compressor goes to about 80lbs, but I can get one that goes to over 100 no prob.

As far as the collets being wedged/stuck on the valves, if I took a socket, and tapped the keepers/retainers with a light tap, I would think that would pop them loose so when I go to remove them they won't be stuck.

I've seen people remove valvesprings with just a socket and a hammer (although on my car with the heavy springs, this would not be possible I think, plus, I wouldn't do it that way anyways). The spring pressures aren't THAT high, I think 420 range with 150 seat pressure.

In the end, it all is going to be what it is. I WILL find out.

Just hoping I can button the motor back up with minimal costs for now so I can have fun for a while, and then go through the motor properly, probably next year.

quote:

Originally posted by Aus Ford:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
If you go the compressed air route, with those spring pressures, you will be also testing the valve seats, the spark plug seats and the compression rings.

If those leak on you...learn to duck fast.

Doing the heads on the bench is safer in my opinion and is the only way that I would do a spring change.

Just sayin'.

I agree.

Unless you have a compressor that can maintain at least 100psi (preferably more) you may find the spring pressure has locked the collets in so hard it may exceed the ability of the air pressure to hold the valve while trying to release the collets.

I think i read somewhere your spring pressures are pretty high ??

It may work ok but you should be aware that it may require you to remove the heads, which frankly at this stage i wouldn't do as you are in serious danger of getting into work/task creep.
eg: i'm doing this so i might as well do that, and this other thing, and something else, and that as well, ect, ect, ect.

you give a sharp Rap on each retainer with the socket & mallet before attempting to compress the spring, this separates the retainer from the locks. it usually takes at least a couple Raps & you can hear the difference when they're 'un-wedged'

&/or just use the rope trick

My oral surgeon uses a similar technique to break up my wisdom teeth LOL!

My lowers I needed to be completely out/under for, they came out emergency style. If my upper wisdoms look like they'll pop right out, I'll forego the anesthesia and take it like a man, and have them pulled while I'm awake (uppers are coming out at 11 this morning).

Parts probably will be waiting for me when I get home from the dentist's, but I'll probably wait a day or 2 to tackle the parts install.

quote:

Originally posted by 4V & Proud:
you give a sharp Rap on each retainer with the socket & mallet before attempting to compress the spring, this separates the retainer from the locks. it usually takes at least a couple Raps & you can hear the difference when they're 'un-wedged'

&/or just use the rope trick

Valvesprings arrived the other day.

Rockers should be showing up soon as well!

Saw this on a Youtube vid.

Welding a tab that spans across the tool strengthens it so it can handle the higher spring pressures.

This, along with my Harbor Freight bleed-down tester, should let me get compressed air into my plug holes, should allow me to R&R my valvesprings myself.

I have a compressor that goes to like 80lbs of pressure.

Do I NEED 100-150lbs of pressure to hold my valves in place, or will 80lbs suffice?

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
I have a compressor that goes to like 80lbs of pressure.

Do I NEED 100-150lbs of pressure to hold my valves in place, or will 80lbs suffice?

Before you "Reinvent the wheel" as seemingly you have a predilection to do.

Why not FIRST try the rope trick?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jl4zU0TWmc

The worst that can happen is you get some rope greasy...Mark

I don't think using compressed air to hold the valves closed is "reinventing the wheel", I think it's pretty standard practice.

While I know the rope trick also works, I'd want to turn the motor over by hand while using that method, which would require I once again remove the seats and firewall.
I don't want to stall the starter out against the rope (effectively hydro-locking the motor), so I've geared up to use compressed air to hold the valves closed.

I know this also works well, so I just need to know what pressure to use. My compressor goes to 80, but if I need 100-150lbs then I'll borrow a friend's compressor.

Can you elaborate on these comments?

I don't see the need to jump at any time, and I don't see how doing it this way tests the other parts you mentioned.

The same parts undergo much greater forces when the engine is running.

I'm still trying to find out if 80lbs is OK or if i NEED to run 100-150lbs to hold the valves in place while I swap my springs out.

I've modified my removal tool so it should hold up, but using it will be the only way to know for sure. It IS considerably stiffer with the welded tab, and I checked the fit, all is good and ready for me to just DO IT.

Still waiting on my rockers from T&D Machine, so there's no hurry, but I do plan on swapping the new springs in this weekend.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
If you go the compressed air route, with those spring pressures, you will be also testing the valve seats, the spark plug seats and the compression rings.

If those leak on you...learn to duck fast.

Doing the heads on the bench is safer in my opinion and is the only way that I would do a spring change.

Just sayin'.

Hello Mike; Due to your rather large camshaft profile, I believe there is a very narrow window ( degrees) when both valves will be fully closed & the fact that a engine with no spark plugs/compression will rotate via the starter motor rather quickly.

I believe you will encounter difficulty using the starter to try & rotate the engine to the few degrees of the camshaft that both valves are fully closed.

Thus the reason I suggest ...removing the seats and bulkhead & manually rotating the engine.

If you still plan to inspect your lifters...Won't you have to remove the distributor? & therefore have to retime your engine?...Mark

80 lbs is plenty.
Ron

Thanks! I thought 80 would suffice.

I won't be putting any downward forces against the valves.

I'm going to hold off on taking the top off the motor and inspecting the lifters. Reason being, if a lifter is bad, then the cam is probably also bad, and at that point I'll be so far into a rebuild that I'll just cover the motor/car and save for a proper rebuild next year.

This motor's last chance is that the new rockers and valvesprings get me up and running reliably for a while, hopefully enough time for me to save and rebuild next year.

It would be nice to enjoy the car I spent my life savings on, instead of waiting and rebuilding an engine I was told was fresh and never had any issues. I'm willing to spend this much so far to see if I can get it running reliably. If not, then these parts are new and I won't have to buy new versions when I go for the rebuild.

It would be interesting to place a dial indicator over every rocker arm at full cam lift to see if there is a consistent number amongst all the intake & exhaust rocker arms after lash is set...Mark

THAT, is something I may just do! Thanks for the tip.

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
It would be interesting to place a dial indicator over every rocker arm at full cam lift to see if there is a consistent number amongst all the intake & exhaust rocker arms after lash is set...Mark

My rockers are removed, so I don't have to worry about positioning anything.

When I reinstall the rockers, the plugs will be removed, and the starter will have no issue moving the engine in small increments. If it ends up being difficult, I'll install the plugs.

My heads are Rousch/Yates tall C3L heads, and the injection manifold is split. There's a fabricated center aluminum cover, that doesn't interfere with the distributor.

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello Mike; Due to your rather large camshaft profile, I believe there is a very narrow window ( degrees) when both valves will be fully closed & the fact that a engine with no spark plugs/compression will rotate via the starter motor rather quickly.

I believe you will encounter difficulty using the starter to try & rotate the engine to the few degrees of the camshaft that both valves are fully closed.

Thus the reason I suggest ...removing the seats and bulkhead & manually rotating the engine.

If you still plan to inspect your lifters...Won't you have to remove the distributor? & therefore have to retime your engine?...Mark

After talking with my pro racing friend, I've changed my mind and I WILL be removing the top of the motor and checking the lifters.

If I change the rockers, and valvesprings, and the cam and lifters check out OK, then I'll pretty much KNOW that the engine is good to go.

If I don't check the lifters, and one blows up and causes more damage, that would just be stupid/stupidity on my part, so I'm going to take the extra time to do things right.

Parts are all in!

Rockers arrived today. I have new valvesprings, modified spring compressor for the install, rockers arrived today all rebuilt, ready to go.

All i need to do now is get off my ass and remove the injection stacks/center cover, inspect my roller lifters, if they check out then it's on to installing the valvesprings and rockers and my engine should be solid and reliable, ready for some road time and occasional spirited driving!

just a few hours away from running.

The main thing holding me back is work, and the lack of a buddy to work with.

As soon as I have a break though, I'm doing all of this whether i have company or not.

Car should be running in a week as long as the lifters check out OK.

Mike, I applaud your efforts- especially since your chest probably still aches a bit! If you'd like yet another project that's a bit different, consider cutting the 'blister' off the upholstered fiberglas firewall panel. The giant advantage to a car like yours is, the panel and the seats need not be removed afterward to work on the engine. The blister mounts with velcro to the underlying steel panel and pulls off with the seats in place. A few screws remove the steel panel underneath and there's the engine!

The vinyl upholstery over the blister is already separate from the rest of the back panel, and can be reapplied to the cut-off blister for a totally stock look with modern convenience. Quite a few modified-engine Panteras have this unobtrusive change.