I tried posting this before.
http://performance.ford.com/se...t-busch-pantera.html
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Cool! I look forward to the second episode. I love the modified stuff, but the side cut in the decklid...ugh. You would think they could have routed air differently without cutting the outside, maybe up through by the decklid strut areas or other area.
quote:but the side cut in the decklid...ugh.
Funny, I was about to comment that I liked it. For once an air intake that doesn't upset the lines of the car too much
Would be interesting to see what transaxle they used, doesn't look like a ZF
quote:Would be interesting to see what transaxle they used, doesn't look like a ZF
They used a Holinger Sequential Gearbox. Shifts extremely fast!
In part 1 the transaxle came from Holinger. I did a Google search and found this, link below.
http://holinger.com.au/showroom/mft
http://holinger.com.au/showroom/mft
quote:Originally posted by Push1267:quote:but the side cut in the decklid...ugh.
Funny, I was about to comment that I liked it. For once an air intake that doesn't upset the lines of the car too much
Would be interesting to see what transaxle they used, doesn't look like a ZF
Could be I only see the one or two photos. Maybe seeing more of it on TV the decklid cut will grow on me.
They aired the second part of the show last night on Discovery....they really did a good job showing off the Pantera. They ended up going to a track and did some limited track time and raced the car against Joey Legano who was driving (a Fast Five coupe), although there was some light rain so they did have to temper how hard he drove the car....but it looked like Kurt Busch was still pushing pretty hard on a damp track. I'd love to see them do another session in the dry. They did a pretty nice job with the show. Watch it if you can. The Pantera is awesome.
Watch it if you can. The Pantera is awesome.[/QUOTE]
Yes, just have to waith until the show come to Denmark.
Anybody know hav many Horsepower the engine make?
Kjeld
Yes, just have to waith until the show come to Denmark.
Anybody know hav many Horsepower the engine make?
Kjeld
I believe 580 hp. I'd be surprised if the full footage of the track time isn't on the internet somewhere.
http://www.fordmuscle.com/news...p-5-2-powered-rides/
http://www.fordmuscle.com/news...p-5-2-powered-rides/
I for one am really interested in the transaxle they used for this car. Sequential clutch less gear changes cool. Does anyone have any info on this?
quote:Originally posted by ItalFord:
I for one am really interested in the transaxle they used for this car. Sequential clutch less gear changes cool. Does anyone have any info on this?
http://holinger.com.au/showroom/mft
520 ft-lb torque limit.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:quote:Originally posted by ItalFord:
I for one am really interested in the transaxle they used for this car. Sequential clutch less gear changes cool. Does anyone have any info on this?
http://holinger.com.au/showroom/mft
520 ft-lb torque limit.
Torque rating for 24 hour endurance events is 700Nm (520ft.lb). This is not a failure rating but an indication of life expectancy in long events with 100% reliability.
quote:Originally posted by r mccall:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:quote:Originally posted by ItalFord:
I for one am really interested in the transaxle they used for this car. Sequential clutch less gear changes cool. Does anyone have any info on this?
http://holinger.com.au/showroom/mft
520 ft-lb torque limit.
Torque rating for 24 hour endurance events is 700Nm (520ft.lb). This is not a failure rating but an indication of life expectancy in long events with 100% reliability.
It means the same to me. The Pantera ZF is around 550 which many are exceeding now with little immediate issues.
It is intended as a guide to consider much like the maximum recommended rpm of an engine is.
Interpretation is left up to the user.
Few people have problems jumping off of a tall building. It is the landing that is the problem.
Caution should prevail.
In the name of accuracy torque is ft-pounds-force (ft x lbf).
quote:Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
...Gentlemen, hate to 'Split Hairs' here.
But in the name of Accuracy:
Torque Wrench= Ft/Lbs = Foot Pounds
Engine Torque= Lb/Ft = Pound Feet
Thank You!
I let machinists split the hairs. They have the equipment and knowledge to do it right?
From the Hollinger website:
spur gear 6-speed which usually means no synchros, starts at $30K-up (in Aussie dollars?), weighs 20% more than a 6-speed ZF, either sequential or h-pattern shift and swappable gear ratios. The last IMHO is the only real advantage, and that only if you're racing, on someone else's money.
spur gear 6-speed which usually means no synchros, starts at $30K-up (in Aussie dollars?), weighs 20% more than a 6-speed ZF, either sequential or h-pattern shift and swappable gear ratios. The last IMHO is the only real advantage, and that only if you're racing, on someone else's money.
Not to split hairs, that's Marlin's thing, but I think the 6 spd ZF technically is an RBT?
Frankly, why even do a ring and pinion in your ZF? Those are $3000. Sell your ZF. Then buy the RBT from Loyd at RBT?
You can spec any ratios that you want to. With a 6 speed, you do not need to change out the 4.22.
You could have 5th and 6th as both overdrive.
Frankly, why even do a ring and pinion in your ZF? Those are $3000. Sell your ZF. Then buy the RBT from Loyd at RBT?
You can spec any ratios that you want to. With a 6 speed, you do not need to change out the 4.22.
You could have 5th and 6th as both overdrive.
quote:Frankly, why even do a ring and pinion in your ZF? Those are $3000. Sell your ZF. Then buy the RBT from Loyd at RBT?
Doug, Do you know how much the RBT 6-speed costs? I would venture to guess that if one sold his ZF-2 and added the $3,000 as you stated above. I doubt the sum would even come close to the cost of an RBT 6-Speed.
Yes I do and it i less then the Holenger is.
A good used zf will bring 7 to 8 thousand.
A ring and pinion isn't going to install itself either.
You gotta pay to play. If you can't afford it, you're in the wrong game.
A good used zf will bring 7 to 8 thousand.
A ring and pinion isn't going to install itself either.
You gotta pay to play. If you can't afford it, you're in the wrong game.
Doug so your saying the following:
$8,000 sell zf-2
$3,000 Ring and Pinion
$3,000 Labor for R&P
$14,000 Total
Can the RBT 6 speed be purchased for approximately this cost?
What attracts me to the Hollinger is the sequential clutch less shifting. The RBT-6 isn't a real advantage for me.
$8,000 sell zf-2
$3,000 Ring and Pinion
$3,000 Labor for R&P
$14,000 Total
Can the RBT 6 speed be purchased for approximately this cost?
What attracts me to the Hollinger is the sequential clutch less shifting. The RBT-6 isn't a real advantage for me.
The RBT six is about and 1.5" longer than the 5 speed, so requires some chassis/mounting modification to fit. The gears available are the same as the 5 speed, so you end up spreading the same ratios over 6 shifts rather than 5. IMO even with with the tall 5th installed there isn't a big rpm drop on the 5 speed that warrants another gear.
The last time I looked the RBT was 14. Don't forget maybe 3 to go through your ZF as well.
The gearing available is listed on the RBT page.
You can drop 6th down, go to a 2.50 or 3 something first gear. It depends on what you want to do with the car?
If you want a 10 second car you HAVE to do something with the 2.20 first gear. That really should be second.
Hall put a 5.38 in the GTS and went into the 9's with it. That's the equivalent of a 2.80 first gear.
To me, I just don't see the point in gearing it for over 200. You would need to use that on a Super Speedway
The ass on the RBT hangs out a little more in the rear.
Maybe they will take your ZF in trade towards a 6 speed?
No matter how you look at it, there is more versatility in a 6 speed.
The gearing available is listed on the RBT page.
You can drop 6th down, go to a 2.50 or 3 something first gear. It depends on what you want to do with the car?
If you want a 10 second car you HAVE to do something with the 2.20 first gear. That really should be second.
Hall put a 5.38 in the GTS and went into the 9's with it. That's the equivalent of a 2.80 first gear.
To me, I just don't see the point in gearing it for over 200. You would need to use that on a Super Speedway
The ass on the RBT hangs out a little more in the rear.
Maybe they will take your ZF in trade towards a 6 speed?
No matter how you look at it, there is more versatility in a 6 speed.
Mark,
I hope this email finds you well. Here are the specifics answers to your four questions from yesterday.
The wind tunnel was a bust. We arrived at the tunnel on August 14th, there were technical issues on both ends car/telemetry and no data was collected. It is very difficult and expensive to run the Windsheer tunnel; it has a rolling stainless steel belt to accelerate the wheels and everything needs to be perfect. The only useful information was a "flow visual" or smoke at low speeds, unfortunately. We would like to return at a later date to resolve these for real downforce and drag numbers.
The air inlets were difficult to test as the engine needs to be pumping air to know the true effect. We do this with a large electric motor (10hp+) for the NASCAR cup cars. This being a one-off project we gave it our best guess. The engine tuner did see increased fuel rate and MAF numbers while on track vs. dyno. This was in the neighborhood of 2%, so I feel this was a small plus+. Some additional massaging in the scoop floor could make this a very good method of air inlet for any Pantera. I tried to make them similar to a Ferrari 512S "B-post" NACA.
The underside of the car has had extensive modifications, it was a collaboration between the KBI guys and LRR. There were "X" braces, seam welding, stiffening done to help the flex of the chassis; countless hours that never made it on TV. The firewall was scrubbed and the cage was paneled then used as the firewall. The rear frame was deeply notched to make room for the starter and dry sump oil pump. None of the upper chassis points were left stock, they were all made adjustable slots with spherical bearings and star camber slugs. It was a monumental engineering process......camber gain, bump steer, and caster were all optimized for the soft track tires.
The car will be at the Performance Racing Industry show in the PAC Racing Springs booth in Indianapolis on December 6th,7th,8th & 9th. We hope something further will develop with my friends at Mustangs and Fast Fords. Stay tuned!
Thanks, Jesse Walker
--
Jesse Walker
Kurt Busch Inc.
Project Manager
151 Lugnut Lane
Mooresville, NC 28117
704-799-2428 Office
704-799-2326 FAX
jesse@kurtbusch.com
I hope this email finds you well. Here are the specifics answers to your four questions from yesterday.
The wind tunnel was a bust. We arrived at the tunnel on August 14th, there were technical issues on both ends car/telemetry and no data was collected. It is very difficult and expensive to run the Windsheer tunnel; it has a rolling stainless steel belt to accelerate the wheels and everything needs to be perfect. The only useful information was a "flow visual" or smoke at low speeds, unfortunately. We would like to return at a later date to resolve these for real downforce and drag numbers.
The air inlets were difficult to test as the engine needs to be pumping air to know the true effect. We do this with a large electric motor (10hp+) for the NASCAR cup cars. This being a one-off project we gave it our best guess. The engine tuner did see increased fuel rate and MAF numbers while on track vs. dyno. This was in the neighborhood of 2%, so I feel this was a small plus+. Some additional massaging in the scoop floor could make this a very good method of air inlet for any Pantera. I tried to make them similar to a Ferrari 512S "B-post" NACA.
The underside of the car has had extensive modifications, it was a collaboration between the KBI guys and LRR. There were "X" braces, seam welding, stiffening done to help the flex of the chassis; countless hours that never made it on TV. The firewall was scrubbed and the cage was paneled then used as the firewall. The rear frame was deeply notched to make room for the starter and dry sump oil pump. None of the upper chassis points were left stock, they were all made adjustable slots with spherical bearings and star camber slugs. It was a monumental engineering process......camber gain, bump steer, and caster were all optimized for the soft track tires.
The car will be at the Performance Racing Industry show in the PAC Racing Springs booth in Indianapolis on December 6th,7th,8th & 9th. We hope something further will develop with my friends at Mustangs and Fast Fords. Stay tuned!
Thanks, Jesse Walker
--
Jesse Walker
Kurt Busch Inc.
Project Manager
151 Lugnut Lane
Mooresville, NC 28117
704-799-2428 Office
704-799-2326 FAX
jesse@kurtbusch.com
My personal feelings regarding a ram air feed into the induction system,is that while it is a nice study, the reality is that very few Pantera owners will drive their cars in such a way a to benefit from such mods. Most of the benefit will come to those who push the engine to higher RPM'S and especially in 4th and 5th gear as you will spend proportionally more time in these gears.
Mark
Mark
quote:Originally posted by ehpantera:
My personal feelings regarding a ram air feed into the induction system,is that while it is a nice study, the reality is that very few Pantera owners will drive their cars in such a way a to benefit from such mods. Most of the benefit will come to those who push the engine to higher RPM'S and especially in 4th and 5th gear as you will spend proportionally more time in these gears.
Mark
We will have some actual data about the ram air system and the chart sometime in December or January. The calculations on the above chart are based on very small side scoops and not the typical elephant ear scoops that are more common. The elephant ear scoops have at least twice the surface area that mine have. My car will be used for the testing on a private local race track. My side window scoops are being fed into a sealed air box. The FAST XFI 2.0 fuel injection system shows 40 degree cooler air when the scoops are attached to the sealed air box vs when the scoops are not attached. When I built this system five years ago my goal was just cold air induction, although when it becomes a ram air system at some point, I won't complain about that. I certainly agree that driving wide open in 4th or 5th gear isn't something that I will be doing very often on public roads.
I would think it would be easy to data log airflow into a scoop and temp along with speed. I would look at using a mass airflow sensor to read the air. It wouldn't be too hard to make a micro controller circuit which could log this on an SD card.
quote:Originally posted by comp2:
I would think it would be easy to data log airflow into a scoop and temp along with speed. I would look at using a mass airflow sensor to read the air. It wouldn't be too hard to make a micro controller circuit which could log this on an SD card.
I can run a data log on my lap top which would come off of my ECU. The data log has everything that the ECU is doing and it can be saved and played back, which I have done before. I also have the FAST XFI on dash display which records minimum and maximum readings. The dash monitor records speed and inlet air temperature in real time, along with lots of other data.
Even better than a mass airflow sensor, somehting such as this could read the actual airspeed of the incoming air:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/pi...or-w-pitot-tube.html
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/pi...or-w-pitot-tube.html
quote:Originally posted by comp2:...It wouldn't be too hard to make a micro controller circuit which could log this on an SD card.
do you think you could teach this old redneck how to mess with that digital stuff?
the air FLOW into JFFR's scoop's sealed air box would only be what the engine is consuming at the time. JFFR is planning on Measuring the conversion of scoops entance air speed into pressure with a manometer. It sure would be great is a data logger could be used to match air box pressure, road speed (oe even better air speed) with the EFI mass airflow into the enigine
Probably so. I might be able to actually prepare some of it given enough time. It's coming up on winter and I spend more time messing with electronics and such when the weather turns south.
The most difficult part would be writing to an SD card but I concurred that last winter with a digitizer project. This reads 2 encoders to log points in X/Y coordinates to replicate a part in a cad file.
I think a box which could log data on a car while you drive would be very beneficial.
An easy place to start is with an Arduino. Google it. I got to run right now but send me a PM and I'll send you my email.
Gary
The most difficult part would be writing to an SD card but I concurred that last winter with a digitizer project. This reads 2 encoders to log points in X/Y coordinates to replicate a part in a cad file.
I think a box which could log data on a car while you drive would be very beneficial.
An easy place to start is with an Arduino. Google it. I got to run right now but send me a PM and I'll send you my email.
Gary
I've been told some Bonneville runners don't like direct connection ram-air to carbs. One was quoted as saying..." it became confusing to sort out proper jetting with ram air hooked up...."
JFFR (and the Kurt Bush Pantera) uses EFI which likely operates under different rules.
JFFR (and the Kurt Bush Pantera) uses EFI which likely operates under different rules.
Jack ,you have hit on it, ramming air into a carb directly changes the fuel to air mix, it is also problematic going one way with a slight breeze then with the breeze, the solution is to baffle the air from hammering into the carb.
quote:Originally posted by Bosswrench:
I've been told some Bonneville runners don't like direct connection ram-air to carbs. One was quoted as saying..." it became confusing to sort out proper jetting with ram air hooked up...."
JFFR (and the Kurt Bush Pantera) uses EFI which likely operates under different rules.
The MAP and BARO sensors handle the changes in air pressure in real time with a fuel injected engine. The fuel air ratio is adjusted accordingly to what is set in that particular table. Weather conditions and altitude are quite easy for these systems to compensate for.
quote:Originally posted by pantera chris:
Jack ,you have hit on it, ramming air into a carb directly changes the fuel to air mix, it is also problematic going one way with a slight breeze then with the breeze, the solution is to baffle the air from hammering into the carb.
In the 1960's and very early 1970's nearly all of the American muscle cars had some version of ram air/cold air induction. I believe that the air cleaner took car of the baffling into the carb. From the factory all of these cars ran very well, at least for a 1/4 mile and never seemed to lean out.
Not really if you are talking about headlights turned to air inlets or a scoop in the hood that then runs through the air filter, but with full scoops straight into the carburetor, the motor has to be tuned to air flow at maximum forced air to fuel, rich at low rpm and I am talking about carbureted engines ( not fuel injected). Stepping down timing due to air rich mix is also a early common solution. This comment is for Panteras that retain a carburetor.
The term "ram air" was just a term invented in the '60s by 'marketing people' to attract the 'kids' to wanting the most 'bad as s' car on the block.
The advantage of a hood scoop, or cowl venting was not to force air into a carb or carbs like a supercharger, it was to find a cool air supply to the carb.
One of the results 'of studies' at the time was that disrupting the flow into the carb was harmful.
This was all with carbs as far as I know. Hilborn was the only fuel injection that I can think of and by todays standards is very crude with tuning it by mechanical means.
It is in many cases less tunable then a carburetor is.
It's the advent of an electronic control unit. ecu, that gives the flexibility necessary to take advantage of the fuel delivery improvement technology.
The outside cooler air works like a supercharger intercooler does. Even so, it's a very inefficient means with only a small percentage of what an intercooler can do.
The intercooler on my TT for instance drops the air temp 37 degrees. That simply isn't obtainable by just vent an intake system to the atmosphere in a location with cooler then engine compartment air.
How much additional hp that adds is really a function of how much more efficient it makes the turbo by reducing the heat generated by the system and what the cpu can do with ignition advance, a/f ratio, and fuel quantity with it.
This is a picture of the Forge intercooler that I have on my TT. The thing is maxed out. It may even be bigger then what the 911 guys mount. It's also 3" thick. (About 4" on top is concealed by the bumper.)
Forge likes to dyno all of their products and says they have dyno proof on this one of a 40hp gain over the stock set up which included two little plastic intercoolers. That's a noticeable increase even to me.
Now here is the point of this seeming departure off of the thread: Maybe if you can find a way to use these with carbs it will help you out but with carbs these things are likely to ice up with temp drops like 37 degrees?
Oh...this thing (under boost) whistles/whines like a son of a gun. I never considered that it would make a really bad, out of tune pipe organ, but it sure does.
Maybe Greg Lake would know how to tune it? (Emerson/Lake & Palmer).
The advantage of a hood scoop, or cowl venting was not to force air into a carb or carbs like a supercharger, it was to find a cool air supply to the carb.
One of the results 'of studies' at the time was that disrupting the flow into the carb was harmful.
This was all with carbs as far as I know. Hilborn was the only fuel injection that I can think of and by todays standards is very crude with tuning it by mechanical means.
It is in many cases less tunable then a carburetor is.
It's the advent of an electronic control unit. ecu, that gives the flexibility necessary to take advantage of the fuel delivery improvement technology.
The outside cooler air works like a supercharger intercooler does. Even so, it's a very inefficient means with only a small percentage of what an intercooler can do.
The intercooler on my TT for instance drops the air temp 37 degrees. That simply isn't obtainable by just vent an intake system to the atmosphere in a location with cooler then engine compartment air.
How much additional hp that adds is really a function of how much more efficient it makes the turbo by reducing the heat generated by the system and what the cpu can do with ignition advance, a/f ratio, and fuel quantity with it.
This is a picture of the Forge intercooler that I have on my TT. The thing is maxed out. It may even be bigger then what the 911 guys mount. It's also 3" thick. (About 4" on top is concealed by the bumper.)
Forge likes to dyno all of their products and says they have dyno proof on this one of a 40hp gain over the stock set up which included two little plastic intercoolers. That's a noticeable increase even to me.
Now here is the point of this seeming departure off of the thread: Maybe if you can find a way to use these with carbs it will help you out but with carbs these things are likely to ice up with temp drops like 37 degrees?
Oh...this thing (under boost) whistles/whines like a son of a gun. I never considered that it would make a really bad, out of tune pipe organ, but it sure does.
Maybe Greg Lake would know how to tune it? (Emerson/Lake & Palmer).
Attachments
Images (1)
Nice. Considerably more intrusive though in the "911's"?
My issue now is how long is the clutch going to last with a 27psi boost?
The smell after even a brief blip has the clutch whispering to me I think? "Not long, not long!" This is the Christmas season. Is that the "ghost of Christmas future" or "Christmas present", already getting involved?
400hp is also the structural limit of this 1.8 block. Don't ask me what it shows on a dyno. I don't want to know. Ignorance is bliss. I'm afraid that I'm "just a little" over?
Although I love the 930's, one thing that I will say is that this TT Quatro is considerably easier to drive then my 930 was. In fact it's handling is so good that it is suspicious because the car doesn't drift at all.
An advantage with this intercooler is it doesn't cover up access to the engine.
It IS a concern that it hides under the front valence considering road obstructions and terrible licensed but incompetent street drivers. Not to mention road debris getting thrown against it.
It's aluminum and only worth $.23 a pound in scrap but that's NOT what the thing costs new?
So far I've gotten past the part of blowing the induction hoses off of the car. Last time was near a state park in the pouring rain in the dark and the cpu went into "limp home" which translates to about 4 mph.
The tower found me using the GPS function on my stupid phone. No one knew where I was, not even me.
With a 930, learning to put your foot into the throttle to pull it up in a turn is learnable on a track but lethal on the street.
The more boost that you go to, the harder to learn since it really slams when the power hits.
You know, my hair wasn't grey when I started this. I'm wondering if it's natural or artificially enhanced by terror?
My issue now is how long is the clutch going to last with a 27psi boost?
The smell after even a brief blip has the clutch whispering to me I think? "Not long, not long!" This is the Christmas season. Is that the "ghost of Christmas future" or "Christmas present", already getting involved?
400hp is also the structural limit of this 1.8 block. Don't ask me what it shows on a dyno. I don't want to know. Ignorance is bliss. I'm afraid that I'm "just a little" over?
Although I love the 930's, one thing that I will say is that this TT Quatro is considerably easier to drive then my 930 was. In fact it's handling is so good that it is suspicious because the car doesn't drift at all.
An advantage with this intercooler is it doesn't cover up access to the engine.
It IS a concern that it hides under the front valence considering road obstructions and terrible licensed but incompetent street drivers. Not to mention road debris getting thrown against it.
It's aluminum and only worth $.23 a pound in scrap but that's NOT what the thing costs new?
So far I've gotten past the part of blowing the induction hoses off of the car. Last time was near a state park in the pouring rain in the dark and the cpu went into "limp home" which translates to about 4 mph.
The tower found me using the GPS function on my stupid phone. No one knew where I was, not even me.
With a 930, learning to put your foot into the throttle to pull it up in a turn is learnable on a track but lethal on the street.
The more boost that you go to, the harder to learn since it really slams when the power hits.
You know, my hair wasn't grey when I started this. I'm wondering if it's natural or artificially enhanced by terror?