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259 replies

NEW Mangusta Wheel by Group 4 Wheels

M mikedrewMember
Just FWIW, I pulled up detail photos of the wheels on the Ghia Sport 5000 (which was built from the original Shelby/De Tomaso 70P, and whose chassis and suspension were used for the Mangusta). The wheels it wears measure 8 1/2 x 15 front and 11 x 15 rear...I was surprised as I always thought they were 8 x 15 and 10 x 15, but the markings are quite clearly stamped. I never realized that any Campagnolo wheels were cast in half-inch increments either.
mangustamangustaMember
Fantastic work!!!

I just wanted to note, that on my car, I have one later rim, replaced due to an accident, that appears to have been cast in a metal mold vs a wooden version. It still had the DeT part number on it in grease pencil when we took the tire off! Production rims did not...

The corners are very crisp on the spokes where the production rims are very much rounded off! There is also a CAMPAGNOLO logo in positive relief on one spoke as well as a part number I believe.

Some of you guys with later cars may want to check this out more closely!

I'll try and remember to get a picture of this later. Am doing the engine-dectomy thing again....ugh!

Steve
davidnunndavidnunnMember
Years ago, Gary Hall told me that Campagnolo's tooling would wear out over the course of a production run. When they went to do another run, they would first re-finish the tooling. According to Gary, sometimes they would get carried away and make the tooling too "sharp"; the result being, two wheels made by the same tooling could look significantly different, depending upon when they were cast. We were discussing Pantera wheels but I'm sure the same holds true for Mangusta wheels.
G group4wheelsMember
quote:
Originally posted by Italian STALLION:
When will the finished wheel be on the market?


Hi Italian STALLION,

The above picture is how all wheels are "finished" prior to orders being taken. We then drill the PCD, machine the ET and paint the wheels to the customers requirements.

FIRST MANGUSTA CUSTOMER TO ORDER A SET GETS FREE DELIVERY!


Regards

Jonathan
G group4wheelsMember
quote:
Originally posted by Italian STALLION:
Hi,
You have said in the past that the orginal center caps will fit, is that correct? The orginal center caps are held in with a thin wire retainer, will yours be the same? What size in widths are you going to offer? The final question, what will be the price for a set of 4 with your free freight offer?


Hi Italian STALLION,

Can you forward some pictures of the wheel with the badge out (close up) and one of the badge?

Sizes available are 7, 8 & 9" x 15.

2 x 8's & 2 x 9's in silver would be £1050.


Regards

Jonathan
G group4wheelsMember
quote:
Originally posted by Panterapatt:
Jonathan:

Any chance you guys can take the 10" wheel and make a 13" wide wheels for us Group IV widebody cars? What would that take?

So 10's for the front and a 13" back wheel. 15" diameter of course.

thanks

Lee


Hi Lee,

Possible but it would mean a minimum run of 60 wheels...so a not insignificant investment!


Regards

Jonathan
johnnywoodsjohnnywoodsMember
I recently met Jonathan Sage (owner of Group4wheels) at Brooklands Auto Italia event. Here's a picture of us together, me holding the wheel.
Jonathan is a great guy and very enthusiastic. I was able to have a good look at his wheels and I have to say they are extremely high quality!

Jonathan is going into production with the 10" rear. This will fill out that rear arch and look fantastic - just like the 1966 prototype!

He also wants to produce a new wheel for the front to go with the 10" rear. This makes sense for anyone running the rough sand cast magnesium wheels because the new rears will be perfect castings so they will not match the rough original front wheels. If you have the later die cast aluminium wheels, these are already perfect so you would only really need the rears.

Jonathan has asked me if there is any reason why he cant produce an 8" wide front wheel? As you know the original front is 7" wide. I spent some time today looking at the front of a Mangusta with the original 7" front wheels - 215/60 tyres. I wound it onto full lock in both directions and can't see and reason why he cant add another 1" on the inside. 215/60 is a little short on the front, maybe with an 8" wheel 225/60 would be better. I noticed the calliper will be slightly inside the wheel (like it should have been originally). Jonathan assures me his wheels have a lot more room inside them than the originals do, so the calliper will not be too close to the inside of the rim. Stones can get stuck between the calliper and the wheel and score the rim. I have experienced this on a GT5 Pantera with it's original wheels and 6 piston Willwoods that had very little clearance inside the wheel.

Adding another 1" to the inside of the front wheel would improve the scrub radius and make a small improvement in the steering. It's not possible to put it on the outside because the original front wheel already has way too much negative offset. The backspacing on the original wheel is 59.5mm, it should be a lot more. This is one of the reasons the Goose doesn't have very good steering, the low geared rack masks this somewhat. Another 1" on the inside would improve the backspacing to 84.5mm.

From what I can see any tyre rubbing issues on the front of a Goose are caused by tyres that are too tall so adding 1" on the inside can only improve things, right? What do you guys think?

Johnny

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markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
Johnny & Jonathan,

Glad you two have finally met. I am hoping that this new connection will enable Group4 to get the proper wheel specs and, more critically, fit a set of these wheels to a Mangusta and post photos.

I am ready to order a set, but don't want the responsibility of determining offsets etc. and really want to see a set of 8s and 10s on a Mangusta before ordering. To me, the dish in the hub would need to go (a fairly simple machine operation that Jonathan has confirmed can be done so it looks a tad more authentic) and seeing the wheels fit the body AND clear all the important bits of suspension etc. are the only hold-backs. I don't expect any issues, but I don't want to be shipping wheels back over the ocean because of fitment issues. I'm confident I'm not alone on this.

So, Johnny, please hook Jonathan up with Jonathan Root (really, is EVERYONE third person in the UK named Jon****? Big Grin) or Roger B so he can do a test fit. It would be very much appreciated by all and I'm certain very worthwhile to Group4 Wheels.

Mark
mangustamangustaMember
Wow, I'd like to put a set on my 'Merican muscle car too! They look a LOT like the mini-lites in terms of the spoke pattern, NOT the detail of the spoke.... even has 5 lug nut holes in it already! 5x4.5"? If I toss out all my wife's crap in her suitcase when we hit Europe in a few months, perhaps I can get a set smuggled home....


Johnny, Great explanation of the steering geometry stuff. I was sleeping through that class in high school.....oh, that's right, I never had that class! Seriously...great job explaining something that is basically black magic for most of the masses!
Ciao!
Steve
G group4wheelsMember
Hi All,

Gonna get the 3 J's together ASAP and trial fit a set of wheels. I'm in talks with the design team to see what we can do with the bowl and I think we can come up with something that will make everyone happy. As this will involve extra machine work, I would say the price may increase slightly, I'll let you know.

What I do need to know is, with a modified centre, how many of you would want a set? I'll need to get all wheels machined at the same time as it'll be very difficult to get sets machined in small numbers in the future.


Regards

Jonathan
G group4wheelsMember
quote:
Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Hello Jonathan,

Will you design the Pantera wheels ?
Is there any pic of the (nice) Mangusta wheels on a Pantera ?
regards
Philippe


Hi Philippe,

We are looking at the Pantera wheel, although this would be some time off if it does happen.
No pictures of our wheels on any DeTomaso at the moment, something that I hope will change soon.


Regards

Jonathan
markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
Nice solution Jonathan.

While the true purists will not be happy with anything less than an exact replica of the original wheel, this will be an ideal solution for those of us looking to have some cool-looking (I LOVE the deep-dish of the 10" rears) "every-day" shoes for real driving, plus a "concours" set of original wheels with skinny, expensive XWX tires (tyres) for when we get invited to Pebble Beach.

I'll have mine in silver please.

Now let's see a set ON a Mangusta so we can be comfortable that the stance works, off-sets are right, and everything clears properly. Then I'm ready to order a set.

Cheers,
Mark
G group4wheelsMember
Hi Mark,

Thank you so much for your positive feedback.

Whilst I understand that the purist wants an exact copy, like I've told the Iso Griffo/Bizzarini boys...the numbers have to stack up and it's such an individual wheel (see attached picture) that unless they produce the numbers, nothing like it will get made...unlike this wheel. I think you sum it up very well Mark with the "every-day shoes" and if I may...Sunday best.

I hope that the wheel meets with the approval of others and we can get some sets out there...a lot of hard work has been done by a lot of people to get this wheel to this point.


Regards

Jonathan

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markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
Jonathan,

Subject to seeing photos of a set on a Mangusta (and them looking/fitting correctly) before the payment is handed over, please consider this my order for a set. As shown.

Cheers,
Mark

BTW, who was the lucky "first order"?

quote:
Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:

FIRST MANGUSTA CUSTOMER TO ORDER A SET GETS FREE DELIVERY!


Regards

Jonathan
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Proper rear tires for 10" wide 15" wheels may be on the way.... depending on where you live and how rich you are.

Good news: Avon Tyres in England are supposedly releasing a brand new 295-50x 15" road-legal tire in V-speed rating (150 mph), perfect for Mangustas & Panteras w/10" wheels. This tire is exempt from Euro-union labeling since it's intended for cars that were first registered prior to 1990, which includes nearly all DeTomasos.

Bad news: the tires aren't quite released yet, the projected price will be about 315 Euros (about $406 ea.) plus taxes & shipping, and even Avon's website has no info on them yet. Obviously, no dimensional, handling or wear data is available, either. Jonathon, you may be in a better position than most to chase down this very strong rumor in your backyard.
markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
Jonathan at Group4 Wheels casts the wheels and post-finishes (machining off-sets, drilling stud-holes) afterwards as required. He is promoting these wheels for use on several different cars and with several bolt patterns and off-sets. I can't speak for him, but I suspect it can be done if the off-sets you need are within what the casting range allows.

Mark

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G group4wheelsMember
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Proper rear tires for 10" wide 15" wheels may be on the way.... depending on where you live and how rich you are.

Good news: Avon Tyres in England are supposedly releasing a brand new 295-50x 15" road-legal tire in V-speed rating (150 mph), perfect for Mangustas & Panteras w/10" wheels. This tire is exempt from Euro-union labeling since it's intended for cars that were first registered prior to 1990, which includes nearly all DeTomasos.

Bad news: the tires aren't quite released yet, the projected price will be about 315 Euros (about $406 ea.) plus taxes & shipping, and even Avon's website has no info on them yet. Obviously, no dimensional, handling or wear data is available, either. Jonathon, you may be in a better position than most to chase down this very strong rumor in your backyard.


Both 275/55 & 295/50 Avons available as well as 215/60, 225/60 & 225/65. All in stock.


Regards

Jonathan
G group4wheelsMember
quote:
Originally posted by Group 4 Wheels:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
Jonathan,

These are looking VERY nice. Can the "bowl" be machined deeper? It seems very odd to have the lug nuts embedded so deep. Is it possible to fit a socket in there? They look quite "snug".

Mark


Hi Mark,

Will look into it.



Regards

Jonathan


Hi Mark,

Bowls cannot be machined any deeper, there are 2 choices for the lug nuts to be exposed:

1. Wheel nut/stud pockets are machined shallower and longer studs are used with original nuts.
2. Pockets are left as is and longer nuts are used.


Regards

Jonathan
johnnywoodsjohnnywoodsMember
I have though of a way to fix the recessed wheel nut issue. If we use a short open nut like this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/16x-...&hash=item416ba7337e
we could use these to hold the wheels on and then put the original De Tomaso nuts on top because there would be enough stud sticking through the short nut.
This would make the wheels look much more like the originals.
I have not checked to see if the 60 degree taper is correct?

Johnny
markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
Are these 100% accurate reproductions? No. Will they look amazing on my Mangusta? I think so. I will be mounting my "show-only" Michelin XWX 225/70-15 rear and 185/70-15 front tires to my stock 8" and 7" wheels and will be mounting my new 275/60-15 rears and 215/60-15 fronts to these new 10" and 8" wheels.

I'm looking forward to seeing how they fit, but from what I've seen on another Goose, it should be nice.

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markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
I had my new BFG tires installed on my new Group4 reproduction wheels and decided to fit one set to the left side car and do some comparison photos. The rears are 10" (up from 8) with 275/60-15 tires and the fronts are 8" (up from 7) with 215/60-15 tires.

First a view from the rear:



It's very easy to see that almost all of the extra 2" in width falls where it needs to be — on the outside. The left side looks "correct" (IMHO) and the right side (factory wheel) is set so far in from the fender that it almost looks almost silly to me.

Here's a more direct comparison. The new wheel is on the right in this image pair shot from the front looking back (both sides compared).



This is the view standing behind and looking down. The tire does overhang the fender slightly, but aligns nicely in the same way the Campy 10" does on a Pantera.



Here is the face-on view of the Group 4 10" wide wheel:



And a comparison of the front wheels. The extra width of these seems evenly split inside and outside. They may rub inner fenders slightly, but I haven't checked that yet.



Front wheel:


Another angled view:



And inside the garage:



Overall I think these wheels are a great option. Especially if you want a spare set, or don't have any original-style wheels. There are some obvious differences in the details of the design and so they are not really true reproductions as a result. They are, however, very nicely made period-looking wheels available in sizes few Mangusta owners are able to enjoy — and at a cost that few Mangusta owners can feel is unfair. The only problems I encountered were:

• the original Mangusta lug nuts can't be used. While they DO fit, the diameter of the bore in the wheel is too small to allow a 22mm socket to fit and so they can't be tightened. I was fortunate to have a spare set of longer and smaller O.D. (at 19mm) Pantera lug nuts on-hand and so I was able to install the wheels.

• the rings supplied to retain the included (nice touch) De Tomaso logo wheel centers are slightly too thick and do not "retain" well. Again, I was fortunate to have a set of smaller diameter stainless rings from Wilkinson (or maybe Hall) and they fit like a charm.

Jonathan, thank you again for the initiative in producing these wheels. I am extremely pleased with the quality, finish, value and service (very quick shipping!) and I hope that these images help any other owners who were on the fence about ordering a set.

Mark
panteradougpanteradougMember
They look more correct then the originals do.

I'm tempted to say that I'd want more negative offset in the front, less in the rear, so I could put bigger rubber on in both locations but with a 'goose that only looks easy to do.

Can't do better then a side by side comparison test for sure.

Thanks for posting the pictures.

I'd be interested in hearing how the handling is affected. The 'goose having that early magazine road test where the rear kept coming around on the test driver.

I'm wondering if the car needs to be rebalanced again with the anti-sway bars and shocks?
markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
They look more correct then the originals do.

I'm tempted to say that I'd want more negative offset in the front, less in the rear, so I could put bigger rubber on in both locations but with a 'goose that only looks easy to do.


I completely agree. About half an inch less on the rear and about 1/2 an inch more on the fronts would be about perfect. The fronts might be possible. Time will tell. Of course, tire availability is one of the big problems and its only getting worse.

quote:


Can't do better then a side by side comparison test for sure.

Thanks for posting the pictures.

Thanks, my pleasure.

quote:

I'd be interested in hearing how the handling is affected. The 'goose having that early magazine road test where the rear kept coming around on the test driver.

I'm wondering if the car needs to be rebalanced again with the anti-sway bars and shocks?


Me too. Unfortunately, my car is a "Pushmobile" at the moment so any handling comparison tests will need to be carried out by others. I do know that many of the early handling woes can be traced to crappy, narrow bias ply tires. While there have been one or two spectacular incidents on modern tires, they are (thankfully) quite the rarity now. The Goose handles pretty well but, like a Pantera (and most other mid-engined rear weight-biased cars), it will bite if pushed beyond its limits. Those limits are reasonably high I'm told by other owners, but they are lower than a comparable Pantera.

Mark
panteradougpanteradougMember
Pushmobile explains why it is sitting high now?

I was thinking it might be safe to use solid billet aluminum wheel spacers in the front, attached to the front hub, then lengthen the studs.

What would concern me with that is again modifying the front track vs. the rear and having to play with that bias again.

The 427 Cobras had a bad reputation in the beginning because of "snap steer". They too are a 40/60 weight bias.

The difference is they are a front, mid-engine car.
markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Pushmobile explains why it is sitting high now?

I was thinking it might be safe to use solid billet aluminum wheel spacers in the front, attached to the front hub, then lengthen the studs.

What would concern me with that is again modifying the front track vs. the rear and having to play with that bias again.

The 427 Cobras had a bad reputation in the beginning because of "snap steer". They too are a 40/60 weight bias.

The difference is they are a front, mid-engine car.


The suspension has settled because it remained loaded when I installed wheels (my lift set-up doesn't raise the body but rather lifts from the suspension. I'm not sure why it sits high, but I will eventually resolve that. I will likely do the spacers at the front once I've set everything height-wise. It'll be a while before I'm there however.

Mark
johnnywoodsjohnnywoodsMember
Mark, Thanks for taking the time to shoot these pictures. I think the wheels look great. I will post some more pictures when I get JB's car out. I intend to use short, open 16mm high nuts (I have bought these)http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280978994046?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
with a 19mm head size to hold the wheel on and then put the original nuts over the top because quite a lot of thread will be sticking out of the nut, enough for the original nut to screw down on top of the open nut so that it sits closer to the original position instead of being sunk in the wheel. I think the nut will stick out enough to get the 22mm socket on (of course the outer nut will not need to be very tight because it will only be for show.
I have in the past ground sockets thinner to get around this problem.

The rear wheels have all of the 2" on the outside. The front wheels have the additional 1" on the inside where it needs it. Due to the excessive positive scrub radius on the front of the Goose (I measured it at 6") any additional width has to go on the inside to improve the steering slightly and make it grab and pull a little less under braking.
What the front really needs to make it steer properly is 3" added to the inside and removed from the outside! This is not possible of course and this would require completely new suspension too so it's all a compromise.

I think the best way to balance up the look would be to run the 225/50 front tyre instead of the 215/50 you have at the moment. It's only 10mm taller. I think the 215 is perfect for the 7" rim.

I have spent a long time studying the suspension on the Goose and have come to the conclusion the only way to really improve the front would be to completely redesign it and radically change the offset of the wheel. So it's not worth doing. All part of the character of the car is the excessive negative scrub radius of the wheels much like a GT5 Pantera, to change this would look ridiculous.

Doug, the reason the Goose has a bad reputation for snap oversteer is because the rear suspension bumps into toe out. The rear tubular chassis structure also flexes making things worse. This end of the car can be fixed!

Johnny
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny Woods:


Doug, the reason the Goose has a bad reputation for snap oversteer is because the rear suspension bumps into toe out. The rear tubular chassis structure also flexes making things worse. This end of the car can be fixed!

Johnny


Usually what I see with rear biased cars (40/60) is that you need to do everything possible to keep the rear from steering.

Usually it is as simple as setting the rear tires to about a 1/4" total toe in BUT if in the travel of the rear suspension the tires go from toe in to toe out, bumpsteer in the rear as it were, you have a very serious handling issue.

You could fix the goose in the rear by stiffening the rear springs to reduce travel or worst came to worst, installing strut rods like the front has.

I think the car just suffered from lack of factory developement. I think it can be made at least stable.

I stuck to my skinny fender Pantera. The steering chatter on the GT5's concerns me. I'm afraid to drive that car hard.

A Gp4, well that's another matter all together? Wink

I still love the 'goose, in spite of it's imperfections. I personally have never come across another car with as much character as the Mangusta.

225-50-15 P7's is what I have on the front (of my Pantera) on a 8" Campi. Makes the car feel like a go cart. Big Grin

I would think it would be a great tire for the front of the 'goose too.
Last edited by panteradoug
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